Traditional vs MMA

[lll000000lll]

"I'd say it is purely a matter of personal prefrence." - the always wise Andrew Green.


But as far as MMA vs MA it will always depend. anything can happen in a fight. but MMA guys train to be ready for any situation ground, stand up, take down , takedown defense, submissions blah blah blah, the list goes on and on. for instance what would a EPAK guy or a muay thai guy do if they were brought to the ground? with a decent MMA guy, they would probably Tap or get choked out or even get pounded.

but like i stated b4 anything can happen in a fight. there is a good chance that the EPAK or MT guy would just take them out b4 it went to the ground. but like i said b4 what would they do on there backs.

the only main difference is that MMA fighters are exactly that; Mixed Martial Arts fighters, FIGHTERS that train to Fight. and Martial Artists Train in the art or style.

for the record MMA would not be here today if it was not for a few styles that are highly effective. (styles, you know which ones you are.)

i think that some a good Jun Fan/JKD guy could probably take a decent MMA guy. only because IMHO JKD is one of the best mixed martial arts styles. it being a hybrid of many styles. but i guess it would all depend on the JF/JKD fighter. b/c not every JKD guy trains the same. some guys like myself, i only take what works for me out of whatever styles i wish. call me, or it what you will. i just do what works for me. but it works and like a charm.

i also train in MMA techniques that are barrowed from wrestling, JJ, BJJ, muay thai, Grappling, JKD, Western Boxing and a few others.

but IMHO MMA is the superior way to train for any situation.

except for the following:

1. Eye gouging
2. Biting.
3. Hair pulling.
4. Fish hooking.
5. Small joint manipulation.
6. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.

 

[Fu_Bag]

You know, there was an absolutely hilarious post on the differences between a martial ART and a martial SPORT made by Dale Seago some time ago. Some knuckle-dragger was berating him about "aliveness", "situational preparedness", and some other such nonsense when he replied "Right now, as I sit at my desk, I have 2 guns, 3 knives, and am up for a little "Anything Goes" whenever you are". What a priceless response!!!

The great thing about the real guys like Dale Seago, who've been in the military, work in a security field, and who practice a survival art vs a self-gratifying sport, is that they don't accept the rules of martial sportists. I remember the knuckle-dragger's response to his reply was something like "Oh yeah...big guy with the GUNS and KNIVES......but you wouldn't be so tough WITHOUT them!!!". Hilarious!!!

That's something the martial sportists don't get. They always want to challenge the entire TMA community to a fight when traditional martial arts are about military conflict. With the advance in modern weaponry, a real "fight" between an MMA vs. a TMA would be either the MMA attacking the TMA, being thrown in jail, sued, and ruining their life, therefore "losing" the match and being "submitted" by society, or the TMA (true MARTIAL artist) would set up a meeting in a field somewhere, setting up the MMA favorite, a ring, then rigging it with explosives and a remote detonator.

At that point, when the MMA guy pops into the ring and is parading around, flaunting their hairless physique in front of their friends and admirers, they get blown to smitherines. That's martial. There are no trophies, just dead bodies. There are people who deal with that reality everyday in the military.

Here is MMA's greatest weakness: they need the TMA community to survive and to be validated. If the TMA crowd decided they would not train martial sportists anymore, MMA would be a mix of what? Nothing. So, in short, why not be a little more respectful towards the arts who make it possible for MMA to compete and play "war" games in the ring? The real martial arts exist on the battlefield just as they always have. Instead of insulting the entire TMA community, why not go and play for trophies on a battlefield and prove how tough you are once and for all? I'm sure that modern day enemies wouldn't think any differently of killing a hairless wonder than they would a true soldier.

Just a thought........

As for me, I don't need to be tough. My personal philosophy is that life will beat the crap out of you until it makes an honest man out of you. My philosophy doesn't require Nair. It's a wonderful thing!!!


Fu Bag

 

[Floating Egg]

The great thing about the real guys like Dale Seago, who've been in the military, work in a security field, and who practice a survival art vs a self-gratifying sport, is that they don't accept the rules of martial sportists. I remember the knuckle-dragger's response to his reply was something like "Oh yeah...big guy with the GUNS and KNIVES......but you wouldn't be so tough WITHOUT them!!!". Hilarious!!!

What makes you think that martial sportists follow the rules when they're in a self-defense situation?

That's something the martial sportists don't get. They always want to challenge the entire TMA community to a fight when traditional martial arts are about military conflict.

How many traditional martial artists do you think are training appropriately for the kind threat that would benefit from their art's military lineage? How often will a modern soldier engage in unarmed combat?

With the advance in modern weaponry, a real "fight" between an MMA vs. a
TMA would be either the MMA attacking the TMA, being thrown in jail, sued, and ruining their life, therefore "losing" the match and being "submitted" by society, or the TMA (true MARTIAL artist) would set up a meeting in a field somewhere, setting up the MMA favorite, a ring, then rigging it with explosives and a remote detonator.

I think it's a mistake to conclude that traditional martial artists are better prepared for the the realities of combat than mixed martial artists.

At that point, when the MMA guy pops into the ring and is parading around, flaunting their hairless physique in front of their friends and admirers, they get blown to smitherines. That's martial. There are no trophies, just dead bodies. There are people who deal with that reality everyday in the military.

Yes, and they confront that reality with modern weapons and technology.

 

[Fu_Bag]

Floating Egg,

Thanks for the reply.

********* "What makes you think that martial sportists follow the rules when they're in a self-defense situation?"

Self defense situations involve the real threat of death. The ring has done its best to eliminate that threat. MMA practitioners who go into it with the intention of protecting themselves and their loved ones are of a completely different mindset than the ones who go into it for bragging rights. I have no problems with the first group of people, and their motivations, and believe that they are truly well prepared. The second group, however, are the ones who attempt to bring society down to their level for the sake of validating themselves and their bloodlust. There's a big difference there. I believe that it was a representative from the second group who was messing with Dale Seago. The first group aren't the ones who cause the problems.


***************"How many traditional martial artists do you think are training appropriately for the kind threat that would benefit from their art's military lineage? How often will a modern soldier engage in unarmed combat?"


It would depend on the reason that they chose their art to begin with. If they truly need it to protect themselves and their loved ones, then they will practice appropriately and find an instructor that can train them at that level. It really comes down to the individual student and their need and will to survive. The whole point of military training is to utilize the most effective means of neutralizing the target, is it not? With the weaponry and technology that exists today, unarmed fighting ability is necessary but is a long way from being the most effective means to neutralize an opposing force.


*******************"I think it's a mistake to conclude that traditional martial artists are better prepared for the the realities of combat than mixed martial artists."


I agree and that's not my conclusion. My point is that there are no "ultimate fighters" on the battlefield. It is a coordinated effort by a group of people, armed with conventional equipment, and working together toward surviving the battle and eliminating the enemy. How effective would it be for a sniper to jump up on the roof after eliminating a target and start roaring like some kind of beast, revealing their position, and endangering themselves and their crew because they feel that they are now "the ultimate killing machine"? So, in that respect, someone who has been trained to be composed, calm, and disciplined would probably be a lot more qualified than someone conditioned to be a raging beast with respects to being a soldier on a modern battlefield. MMA who train to be warriors would have no problem. MMA who seek glory and fame as fighters probably wouldn't make it through basic training.


****************"Yes, and they confront that reality with modern weapons and technology."

My point exactly. When is the last time those weapons and technology were allowed in the ring? The combination of those modern weapons and technology is "submission" fighting. Unarmed techniques aren't going to do much against a tank, an air strike, or artillery fire. Taking that into consideration, what are the glory seekers really trying to prove?

Sorry if I ruffled any feathers. The whole TMA vs MMA thing just really gets old after awhile. I really do apologize if my last post was over the top. I have no problems with whatever art people want to study. My problems with people come when they threaten students from other arts who aren't necessarily involved in martial arts for the same reasons. That's bigotry of a sort and I don't think that it should be encouraged.

Have a nice night,

Fu Bag

 

[Don Roley]

What makes you think that martial sportists follow the rules when they're in a self-defense situation?

Because if you train that way under stress, that is what you will do under pressure. It is not a concious decision.

A friend of mine in Japan delt with Kokushin guys coming in to train with him. Kyokushinkai is avery brutal Japanese art that has tournaments every year that keep ambulances busy during them. The only rule is no punches to the head.

My friend met and went at it with several Kyokushinkai guys who knew that the rules against blasting them in the head were not relevant. Despite that, they regularly got knocked out by punches to the head. They knew the rules were not the same, but the way they trained year after year under stresss conditioned them to ignore the possibility of punches to the head. Thus, when faced with it, their old conditioning overcame their conscious thought and left them open to something that led to them being knocked out.

So when people say that they will do things differently in real life, I do not think they know what they are talking about. And none of the major sports competitions I see have people going against weapons like you will encounter on the street. What they do is geared toward that reality, like Kyokushinkai is geared toward no punches to the head. And the resluts probably will be the same with a lot more deadly effect should it happen.

 

[Floating Egg]

I think both of you, Fu Bag and Don Roley, have presented excellent arguments. I agree with you, but is that enough?

Don, your Kyokushinkai story is persuasive, but it's anecdotal. Bas Rutten, former Ultimate Fighting Championship Heavyweight Champion, and 3rd Degree Black Belt in Kyokushin used to work as a bouncer for a few years before getting involved in MMA. You don't work a door for long if you're unable to face reality.

These kinds of discussions tend to turn into a game of pong, with each of us trading a different anecdote until one of us gets tired or loses interest in the argument. We can't depend on anecdotes and suppositions about how things work on the street to frame our arguments

Taijutsu practitioners like us spend a lot of time rolling around and throwing slow lunging punches. As we progress, the pressure increases, but to a mixed martial artist it still looks like a ballet. We defend ourselves by talking about Takamatsu Toshitsugu and his fights. The mixed martial artist snickers at us and envisions kneeing us into unconsciousness, and if we somehow end up on the ground, he laughs as we try to apply an arm lock that's never been tested on someone that spends four hours out of every day wiggling out of submissions. When the mixed martial artist imagines mounting, he shrugs off our pinching, poking, and awkward attempts to reach his groin as he repeatedly elbows our already smashed face.

Of course, the mixed martial artists doesn't have to imagine any of this, because unlike our fantasies of miraculously stepping out of the way of our attacker and reaching inside our jacket for a kusari-fundo, the mixed martial artist trains hard against resisting opponents on a regular basis. He’s an athlete with conditioning far superior to ours, and he knows what it feels like to have his arm pop out of place, fight with blood streaming down his face, and not tap in time to avoid being strangled by a rear naked choke. In the street, he doesn’t have to take the fight to the ground because his punches have knock out power, and he can do everything he needs from the clinch. If for some reason he does go to the ground, he’s not going to be there long, and if someone does try to kick him, he can deal with that threat too because he’s been kicked harder in training.

I wrote all of this to illustrate that the mixed martial artists also has a persuasive argument, and he doesn’t need any more evidence to tell him that his practice is more effective than ours. All he has to do is point us in the direction of the numerous videos that are on the internet cataloguing his confrontations with traditional martial artists. What do we have? Is what we practice simply a house of cards, ready to collapse at any moment? I don’t know the answer to that question, but it’s something to ponder when we’re training.

 

[Floating Egg]

MMA "The Validity"

The martial arts are inherently martial, meaning warlike. There is a tremendous amount of martial technique that deals in lethal force. From art to art and from country to country the amount of lethal techniques vary but are ever present. For many the value of any given art has been based upon the number of lethal techniques involved. There are some who do not think an art has merit unless the focus of the art is attacking potentially lethal or highly vulnerable targets on the body. These areas include the head, throat, neck, eyes, groin and ear. The primary goal of self preservation dictates that these targets be a part of the total package. The problem created by including lethal technique is training and developing it. It will be pretend for the most part. There is no way to pad up the neck and deliver repeated, full power throat strikes. You cannot gouge the eyes of your sparring partner and you cannot execute a hard core neck twist on someone in routine training. There are practical and methodical ways to train lethal technique as to make it understood by the practitioner and develop a mind muscle connection. However, it is not so practical to functionalize. In other words, it’s difficult at best to create a training environment where routine training gives you the ability to apply these techniques against a fully resisting opponent who is focused on applying them on you as well.

More Than A Delivery System.

Mixed martial arts combines conditioning, footwork, striking, clinch and groundfighting but excludes all lethal techniques. The various rules involved are a point of contention for those who advocate the use of lethal techniques. These rules normally have the eyes and groin off limits. In some events you may not stomp or kick a grounded opponent and in others they may not allow the use of elbow strikes. It is extremely aggressive and adversarial in nature yet executed in a very sportsmanlike manner. Mixed martial arts events have proven to be serious battles of very worthy competitors. The successful execution of numerous potentially crippling techniques against fully committed and resisting opponents has, without a doubt, validated the tactics and training methods of mixed martial arts. Because of this many from the martial arts community have looked to mixed martial arts in an attempt to extract training methods which they feel could be used as a delivery system for the more lethal techniques. This is a progressive approach and one that has proved to be of some use. I feel that this is flawed thinking however. If mixed martial arts has been shown to be functional it would make more sense to include mixed martial arts in it’s totality rather than just using it’s training methods. I say include rather than replace. They can both exist in the same space.

From the get go, it is of extreme importance to be in fighting shape. If Bruce Lee did anything for the martial arts he exemplified strength and conditioning, and that was more than thirty years ago. Mixed martial arts fighters are well versed in combat athletics. When it comes to landing a shot on an opponent, or avoiding one yourself, footwork is the real crux of the matter. This is a large area of focus for the mixed martial arts fighter. Striking effectively is an overlooked given. Many still think that if you just randomly girate your appendages in the direction of your opponent you will eventually hit something. This is silly at best, but common. Understanding boxing and kicking combinations and the use of a tight defensive structure is crucial in interpersonal combat. The clinch is a critical area of training. Being able to close on an opponent and stop him from effectively punching and kick you is of extreme value. Learning to counter and execute takedowns, use control ties ups and close quarter striking is standard practice in MMA. Groundfighting is a big part of the MMA game as well. The ability to force the ground game on an opponent and use arm locks, leg locks and chokes or ground and pound strategies is vital. Stopping these techniques from being used against you is huge as well.

A basic understanding of this material should be standard fare for a realistic self preservation programs. It truly can be used as a delivery system for other martial ideologies but is of great value independently. Mixed martial arts training prepares one to utilize its tactics and training against real people who are seriously fighting back. Whereas other arts or structures that focus on a more lethal approach have you training predominately against cooperative opponents. Many in the traditional martial arts community and also some in the reality fighting world discount MMA as being a valid form of fight because of the rules involved. Often overheard are observations like “There are no rules in the street” or “I don’t play by the rules, I cheat” or the ever popular “I’ll just bite and eye gouge”. In my opinion these types of statements are a lighting rod for criticism. Those usually saying them have never had a training mechanism to develop the bite or eye gouge and they are giving too much weight to their effectiveness. The rules of MMA create an environment where personal attributes and fighting strategy can develop with injury being a well managed risk. Still, in my experience choke outs, knockouts and even torn ligaments and broken bones have been a part of the training.

The Fatal Flaw

In the totality of Self Preservation training (as opposed to unarmed interpersonal combat) MMA falls short of being complete in a number of areas. Its combatants know when they are going to fight, who they are going to fight and why they are going to fight. This negates training for pre fight setups, verbal de-escalation and verbal redirection. Pre fight setups would include recognition of one or more persons coordinating a plan of attack against you. Verbal de-escalation is attempting to verbally calm a would be attacker verbally. There are a number of approaches to this including simply backing down and away from the altercation. Verbal redirection comes into play when you have made a decision to attack preemptively and you want to distract you opponents thought processes for a split second before you do. This can slow down his reaction time giving you great probability of landing your attack. An example of this could be if your opponent says he’s going to “bounce your head off the sidewalk” you could say “I don’t have any money”. As his brain stutters and he says “I didn’t ask you for money”, you nail him on a word fragment. These tactics may or may not be appropriate for any given situation but they are not addressed in MMA.

Another area not covered is multiple opponents. This area should not be approached with a win, lose or draw mentality but as a survival situation. It is common for criminals to work together in assaults and muggings as they are not looking for a fight or even a conflict. They are looking for effect. Likewise, weapons are of extreme importance in the big picture. weapons include, pepper spray, impact weapons, bladed weapons and improvised weapons. Combatants must know how to fight weapon vs weapon and empty hands vs various weapons. Weapon characteristics dictate the potential offensive and defensive responses so being intimately familiar with weapons is important. Firearms for home defense and concealed carry are are not even afterthoughts for MMA. They have no place in the training.

I acknowledge that in an MMA competition you know ahead of time why you are fighting and who you are fighting. There will be no weapons involved and no multiple attackers. There is a referee to make sure the fighters don’t get hurt and a doctor standing by in case one does. Your corner can throw in the towel or you can quit at anytime. The benefit is that this framework has allowed for tremendous growth and development.

As I see it, the idea that martial arts are for health and spirituality is a huge distraction from the primary purpose of self preservation. In the final analysis I think it is also a mistake confine your training to a lethal force platform of unarmed techniques you cannot train athletically and functionally. You should also avoid adopting the tactical error of simply agreeing to exchange blows with larger, stronger, multiple or armed opponents. Training to use pre fight deceptive dialog, high probability unarmed tactics and weapons is a must. But depending on your arsenal of deadly techniques, too deadly to even train, is suicidal at best.​

 

[FearlessFreep]

If competitions like UFC, Pride, etc...are the culmination of "MMA"...the goal or the purpose, then I would agree with Floating Egg that there are a lot of..shortcomings, I would think in th edifference between MMA as a sport competition and useful self-defense. This holds for most sport competitions such as WTF Taekwondo sparring

If competitions like UFC, etc..are just another method of training for the larger goal of personal self preservation, then for all practical purposes they are just another TMA anyway

 

[Rook]

You know, there was an absolutely hilarious post on the differences between a martial ART and a martial SPORT made by Dale Seago some time ago. Some knuckle-dragger was berating him about "aliveness", "situational preparedness", and some other such nonsense when he replied "Right now, as I sit at my desk, I have 2 guns, 3 knives, and am up for a little "Anything Goes" whenever you are". What a priceless response!!!

Ok. This is basically the equivalent of saying "I live in the suburbs so I don't need hand to hand." He basically admitted his hand to hand is behind, and so has tried to change the subject. This isn't necessarily a problem, as a great many MMAists are lawenforcement officers and military people and are likely just as capable with weapons. There are military competitions for weapons too...

The great thing about the real guys like Dale Seago, who've been in the military, work in a security field, and who practice a survival art vs a self-gratifying sport, is that they don't accept the rules of martial sportists. I remember the knuckle-dragger's response to his reply was something like "Oh yeah...big guy with the GUNS and KNIVES......but you wouldn't be so tough WITHOUT them!!!". Hilarious!!!

He's actually right on. Mr. Seago is skirting the issue of his hand to hand training by essentially saying he doesn't need it. Ok.

That's something the martial sportists don't get. They always want to challenge the entire TMA community to a fight when traditional martial arts are about military conflict.

Which is, of course, why BJJ founds the basis for the American army and marine corps hand to hand combat. SAMBO forms the basis for the Russian military hand to hand combat. The newer British combatives are mostly based on BJJ as well.

With the advance in modern weaponry, a real "fight" between an MMA vs. a TMA would be either the MMA attacking the TMA, being thrown in jail, sued, and ruining their life, therefore "losing" the match and being "submitted" by society, or the TMA (true MARTIAL artist) would set up a meeting in a field somewhere, setting up the MMA favorite, a ring, then rigging it with explosives and a remote detonator.

When has this ever actually happened?

At that point, when the MMA guy pops into the ring and is parading around, flaunting their hairless physique in front of their friends and admirers, they get blown to smitherines. That's martial. There are no trophies, just dead bodies. There are people who deal with that reality everyday in the military.

...Which is why their hand to hand isn't based on ninja tricks. See above.

Here is MMA's greatest weakness: they need the TMA community to survive and to be validated. If the TMA crowd decided they would not train martial sportists anymore, MMA would be a mix of what? Nothing.

What the heck are you talking about?

So, in short, why not be a little more respectful towards the arts who make it possible for MMA to compete and play "war" games in the ring? The real martial arts exist on the battlefield just as they always have. Instead of insulting the entire TMA community, why not go and play for trophies on a battlefield and prove how tough you are once and for all? I'm sure that modern day enemies wouldn't think any differently of killing a hairless wonder than they would a true soldier.

Just a thought........

As for me, I don't need to be tough. My personal philosophy is that life will beat the crap out of you until it makes an honest man out of you. My philosophy doesn't require Nair. It's a wonderful thing!!!


Fu Bag

Ok then...

 

[Xue Sheng]

as a great many MMAists are lawenforcement officers and military people and are likely just as capable with weapons. There are military competitions for weapons too...

I'm not disputing that but you do of course realize that the same can be said for TMA as well.

Which is, of course, why BJJ founds the basis for the American army and marine corps hand to hand combat. SAMBO forms the basis for the Russian military hand to hand combat. The newer British combatives are mostly based on BJJ as well.

You forgot the Chinese Military and Sanshou aka Qinna Gedou

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

North Korean Military uses hardcore ITF

South Korean Military has multiple Korean based systems

Indonesian Military uses Silat to the best of my knowledge

Filipino Military has multiple FMA influences in the curriculum with lots of Pekiti Terisia

and so on.

Even the United States Military Curriculum has been changed time and time again over the years and not all of our military CQC is based off BJJ. Even the BJJ modeled one has other aspects dating back to the previous system.

Also the Current Army military combatives program says clearly in their training that the one who wins in CQC on the ground is the one whose friends show up first.

This argument or debate is getting old! I like both ways of training and really feel that the individual has to find what is best for them. It does in the end come down the individual after all, not the system.

 

[Bigshadow]

This argument or debate is getting old!

Amen brother! This debate has been reincarnated at least a million times on here.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Amen brother! This debate has been reincarnated at least a million times on here.

Maybe more! :rofl:

 

[zDom]

What I don't understand is, why are certain elements of the MMA crowd SO bent on convincing TMA'ists that we are wasting our time?

The fact is, SOME people ARE practicing TMA in ways that are ineffective -- but that doesn't mean ALL of us are.

I'm confident my curriculum is viable because it's worked for me in the past. You can argue till you are blue in the face -- but I know what I am learning and how I am training are effective. Period.

You can laugh and ridicule anecdotal evidence, too -- but an anecdote from a reliable source is, to me, as convincing as videotape of cage matches are to you.

Likewise, "MMA" is not some magical set of all-powerful techniques. Believing it is so doesn't make it so.

The octagon is entertaining, but it is not the only place where martial arts are tested.

Confidence is good, overconfidence can get you in a world of hurt.

And the more people that think that what I'm doing is "ineffective," the more people there are out there that are completely unprepared for what I can do. It makes defending myself even easier.

I respect the ability of BJJ on the ground, I respect the ability of a well-trained MMA to be proficient in a number of fighting ranges.

I train hard. Those who do NOT respect my abilities do so at their own peril.

*shrug* Ya'll have fun beating this dead horse into a pile of glue.

 

[Cryozombie]

Which is, of course, why BJJ founds the basis for the American army and marine corps hand to hand combat.

Really?

Cuz MCMAP, the current Marine Corp H2H program is based on a COMBINATION of Arts and was IMSC created in combination with Ken Shamrock AND Bujinkan Shidoshi and former marine Jack Hoban.

BJJ isnt the "basis" for it. Its an element IN it.

 

[Cryozombie]

...Which is why their hand to hand isn't based on ninja tricks. See above.

No, just the actual fighting techniques. See above.

 

[Colin_Linz]

Of course, the mixed martial artists doesn't have to imagine any of this, because unlike our fantasies of miraculously stepping out of the way of our attacker and reaching inside our jacket for a kusari-fundo, the mixed martial artist trains hard against resisting opponents on a regular basis. He’s an athlete with conditioning far superior to ours, and he knows what it feels like to have his arm pop out of place, fight with blood streaming down his face, and not tap in time to avoid being strangled by a rear naked choke. In the street, he doesn’t have to take the fight to the ground because his punches have knock out power, and he can do everything he needs from the clinch. If for some reason he does go to the ground, he’s not going to be there long, and if someone does try to kick him, he can deal with that threat too because he’s been kicked harder in training.

I wrote all of this to illustrate that the mixed martial artists also has a persuasive argument, and he doesn’t need any more evidence to tell him that his practice is more effective than ours. All he has to do is point us in the direction of the numerous videos that are on the internet cataloguing his confrontations with traditional martial artists. What do we have? Is what we practice simply a house of cards, ready to collapse at any moment? I don’t know the answer to that question, but it’s something to ponder when we’re training.

It’s true; MMA practitioners have had a lot of success against others in competion. After all the rulsets are based around what they do, this is quite an advantage. Remember the Ali and Inoki fight, both very good at what they did and both very confident individuals; however neither one was going to meet the other outside of their normal fighting environment.

I’m sure that in a self defence situation where there are no rules a TMA practitioner who had trained hard would fare well. Would he be better than a MMA guy? I don’t know.

Regarding the anecdotal evidence of Don’s. Some years ago one of our younger students wanted to go in a Kyokushinkai tournament. Normally in Shorinji Kempo we don’t compete, our randori is just for learning how to apply techniques realistically not to make a winner. Anyway the instructor eventually allowed him to compete because he was so determined to do so. His fight lasted only a few seconds, as his opponent came at him our guy punched him in the head and knocked him down. He of course was immediately disqualified, but it did highlight trained responses. Our guy who knew he was not allowed to punch to the head did so anyway. All it took was a little stress and seeing an opening, he then reacted the way he was trained to.

 

[Floating Egg]

What I don't understand is, why are certain elements of the MMA crowd SO bent on convincing TMA'ists that we are wasting our time?

The fact is, SOME people ARE practicing TMA in ways that are ineffective -- but that doesn't mean ALL of us are.

The truth is we don't know how many are. We don't even know how to define ineffective. Remember, I'm a traditional martial artist, not a mixed martial artist.

I'm confident my curriculum is viable because it's worked for me in the past. You can argue till you are blue in the face -- but I know what I am learning and how I am training are effective. Period.

Yeah, everybody's curriculum has worked for them in the past.

You can laugh and ridicule anecdotal evidence, too -- but an anecdote from a reliable source is, to me, as convincing as videotape of cage matches are to you.

An anecdote from a reliable source is still just an anecdote, and if you're convinced, well there's not much I can say about that. I could give you a long lecture, but what would that accomplish?

Likewise, "MMA" is not some magical set of all-powerful techniques. Believing it is so doesn't make it so.

The octagon is entertaining, but it is not the only place where martial arts are tested.

Confidence is good, overconfidence can get you in a world of hurt.

Sure, I recognize that.

And the more people that think that what I'm doing is "ineffective," the more people there are out there that are completely unprepared for what I can do. It makes defending myself even easier.

What if you're unprepared?

 

[Fu_Bag]

Floating Egg,

Thank you for putting so much into your reply. I really don't want this to turn into a Pong game so I'll see if I can try a different approach.

All MMA are actually TMA even if they refuse to admit it. The fact that they train in a certain way doesn't mean they are no longer TMA. The arts they train in are TMA and that will never change. That said, however, sports have nothing to do with the application of martial techniques, tactics, strategy, or victory. Sports may be challenging on many levels but, seriously, unless sportists go into the ring intending to either die, or to kill the other person, they're not applying, or engaging in, anything martial. They are playing "who has the bigger weiner" for trophies. Some people can be happy winning prizes in an arcade, others need to do it violently. In the end, though, the result is the same. To me, the one who found that they could win a prize using only a quarter is the one who would be more likely survive on a battlefield.

There's a big difference in a coach, or a fight promoter, saying "Get out there and BEAT THIS GUY!!!", and a drill seargent saying "Gentlemen, you're here to learn how to die like men and to neutralize the enemy by any means necessary.". One is martial, the other is sport. When someone undergoes true MARTIAL training for the sake of SURVIVING any conflict, it doesn't matter what you do to them, they're not going to stop trying to kill, or survive, until either they are dead, or their enemy is. Submitting or tapping out isn't an option. That's the difference between MARTIAL and SPORT. That doesn't mean someone won't get killed quickly by someone who is better trained, however.

Someone is going to have a hard time convincing me that a soldier, or even an untrained civilian for that matter, who is fighting for their life so that they can go home to their family, is inferior in mindset, pain tolerance, commitment, and survival instinct to someone who plays for trophies professionally. They're not going to care what you do to them and they're not going to stop trying to kill their attacker until they are able to get to go home to their family. Once again, big difference between real fighting and trophy playing.

Tough is "I'm going home, you're not", not "HA HA HA!!! I whoopped your *** GOOD!!!". Like I said before, MMA who could care less about trophy playing have the first mindset, not the second. The only way you're going to pressure test that is to constantly endanger people's loved ones. Fortunately, there are laws against that type of nonsense. There are plenty of TMA, not to mention untrained civilians, who have the first mindset also. So what if some diseased, animalistic sociopath can overcome someone in that mindset? At that point they have just committed pre-meditated murder, not to mention stalking, and they will spend the rest of their life in a cage, where they belong, until they are treated to the death penalty.

If what you're saying is that there is a high degree of likelihood that any criminal I might encounter is going to be a highly trained MMA ring fighter, then something needs to be done to address that situation from within the MMA community. My understanding of criminal attacks is that

1. They don't pre-arrange the attack with you at a certain place, on a certain date, and at a certain time
2. They don't attack until they know they can kill you without being harmed themselves
3. They don't show you their weapon so that it's easier to use it on you
4. They oftentimes use diversionary tactics
5. They have friends
6. If you aren't thinking about these types of things, and addressing them in your training, you might be their next victim

That's where MARTIAL techniques, strategies, and concepts come into play. Bye bye sport, hello reality. The criminal utilizes battlefield strategy, information gathering, pre-attack planning, and post-attack escape. How often is this stressed in training for ring fighting? If you want to say that the MMA crowd have proven, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that TMA is fully combat functional, then I agree since TMA is what MMAists train in anyway.

Some of the taijutsu that I've either seen, or heard of, involves snapping the guys neck when they rush in for the tackle, drawing your weapon, taking out their friend, then them, then any other friends that they might have nearby. Shinai drills aren't for nothing. Neither is sensitivity training. It's not a matter of getting attacked, then trying to find your weapon while you're being pounded. It's a matter of situational awareness, danger avoidance, and pre-emptive action. Just like with Dale Seago's post. He dissuaded his potential aggressor by informing the knuckle-dragger that their death may be on the horizon if they could not help but to behave as a diseased, animalistic sociopath. It worked.

Is that a "ninja trick"? No, but it is martial. The sportist wanted to engage in their masturbatory fantasies with him and, when given the choice to engage in real MARTIAL arts outside of the ring, the sportist quickly made excuses as to why they didn't want to engage in real martial arts. Upping the training intensity of TMA, making it into a sport, and calling it "martial", while discarding everything martial for the sake of the sport, doesn't make it martial. It just makes it a very demanding TMA-based sport which plays for trophies.

I have no problems respecting MMAists who are actually warriors, who protect life, instead of attacking it, and who have chosen the MMA approach because it suits them best. I just wish that they would be the ones making the biggest impressions on internet forums and in showing the public that their art isn't made up of a bunch of trophy playing, antagonistic, fight seeking brawlers, but instead, of people who train it as a MARTIAL art instead of a self-gratifying sport. Threatening other styles' students doesn't suddenly transform a sport into a martial art, it just shows the sociopathic nature of those who have to prove something through violently forcing their will upon another human being. To me, that just makes them criminals in training.

SPORT is :

"Let's find out who has the biggest weiner afterall!!!"

MARTIAL is:

"That's fine. I'll do the comparison once * BAM * BAM * BAM * BAM * BAM * I've killed you...... Wow. I guess you really DID have a big weiner. Too bad you won't be using it anymore."

 

[Floating Egg]

I’m sure that in a self defence situation where there are no rules a TMA practitioner who had trained hard would fare well. Would he be better than a MMA guy? I don’t know. (emphasis added)

You hit the nail on the head with "I don't know." I don't know either, and that's the problem. There are a lot of opinions floating around, but not much else, and I don't know how we could test something like what you're referring to without rules. Would it be fair to include weapons? What can we do while remaining within the law? Do we let people tap out or do we wait for unconsciousness? Do we stop the fight if someone is bleeding into their eyes and can't see? Do we stop the fight if someone breaks their arm, but still wants to continue? If someone bites off their opponent's nose, is that an automatic win?

Regarding the anecdotal evidence of Don’s. Some years ago one of our younger students wanted to go in a Kyokushinkai tournament. Normally in Shorinji Kempo we don’t compete, our randori is just for learning how to apply techniques realistically not to make a winner. Anyway the instructor eventually allowed him to compete because he was so determined to do so. His fight lasted only a few seconds, as his opponent came at him our guy punched him in the head and knocked him down. He of course was immediately disqualified, but it did highlight trained responses. Our guy who knew he was not allowed to punch to the head did so anyway. All it took was a little stress and seeing an opening, he then reacted the way he was trained to.

Great story, but refer to my previous point about pong.