The MMA vs. Traditional misnomer (Informal vs. Formal Combat)

[Argus]

Iklawson,

I do not disagree with any of your points, but you could be more respectful in making them.

I fully expected someone to tear that post apart. No, I did not present a complete picture, nor do I even have a complete understanding of MMA. I'm admittedly somewhat ignorant of it. Your historical points, such as duels, and special individuals, are also things that I am aware of.

I was just trying to bring up a few points that I think are often overlooked when comparing traditional and sportive arts. Sure, there are amateur MMA practitioners. But that's not usually what people are concerned about when we get into the "traditional vs MMA" debate. They ask why there aren't any traditional martial artists in professional MMA matches.

The fact is, whether you're training to preserve an art, for sport, for the military, self defense, for duels, or what have you, your approach is going to be different. You will have different goals, and different training methods. And you will be training for something different in each case. That is the only point I was trying to make.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Iklawson,

I do not disagree with any of your points, but you could be more respectful in making them.

I fully expected someone to tear that post apart. No, I did not present a complete picture, nor do I even have a complete understanding of MMA. I'm admittedly somewhat ignorant of it. Your historical points, such as duels, and special individuals, are also things that I am aware of.

I was just trying to bring up a few points that I think are often overlooked when comparing traditional and sportive arts. Sure, there are amateur MMA practitioners. But that's not usually what people are concerned about when we get into the "traditional vs MMA" debate. They ask why there aren't any traditional martial artists in professional MMA matches.

The fact is, whether you're training to preserve an art, for sport, for the military, self defense, for duels, or what have you, your approach is going to be different. You will have different goals, and different training methods. And you will be training for something different in each case. That is the only point I was trying to make.

So, basically, your point was "different people train different ways for different reasons"?

Very profound. Thanks.

 

[lklawson]

I fully expected someone to tear that post apart. No, I did not present a complete picture, nor do I even have a complete understanding of MMA. I'm admittedly somewhat ignorant of it. Your historical points, such as duels, and special individuals, are also things that I am aware of.

But just chose to ignore because it didn't fit in with your "only true martial artists" theory?

I was just trying to bring up a few points that I think are often overlooked when comparing traditional and sportive arts.

Overlooked? I've been seeing the exact same arguments for the last 20 years or so. Like I wrote in the other thread, it's a blast from the 90's past.

Sure, there are amateur MMA practitioners. But that's not usually what people are concerned about when we get into the "traditional vs MMA" debate.

When asking such questions, they don't care pro or amateur, they're talking TRAINING METHOD and SKILLS.

They ask why there aren't any traditional martial artists in professional MMA matches.

Seriously?
From: http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f61/30-successful-karate-fighters-mma-1040386/

1. Lyoto Machida
The most famous Karate practitioner of today, former UFC LHW Champion. Lyoto is a 3rd dan in Shotokan Karate under his father Yoshizo Machida - a 7th dan and JKA chief instructor.

2. Bas Rutten
2nd dan in Kyokushin Karate and TKD, former UFC HW Champion and 3-time King of Pancrase, famous for his deadly Liver Shot. Bas finished his career on a 22 fight unbeaten streak.

3. Guy Mezger
Guy is a highly decorated US Karate fighter, twice World Full-Contact Karate Champion and a LHW champion in both the UFC and Pancrase.

4. Chuck Liddell
Former UFC LHW Champion, Liddell began studying Kempo and Koei-Kan Karate at the age of 12; the tattoo on his scalp reads "Koei-Kan" in Kanji. He got his black belt and won a national championship title in the style before joining John Hackleman in The Pit. Chuck has relied on the Karate background throughout his entire career.

5. George St-Pierre
Having trained in Kyokushin and its various offshoots (Shidokan, Ashihara etc.) George wears a Gi and headband adorned with Karate symbols before entering the UFC cage. GSP has often said that Karate had a huge impact on his life as a fighter and person. St-Pierre has recently received his official 3rd Dan Diploma, a new black belt and a new Gi directly from From Shokei Matsui, president of the International Karate Organization (IKO) founded by Mas Oyama himself.

6. Yuki Kondo
Yuki is an MMA veteran, having fought in Pancrace, PRIDE and the UFC with a total of 85 MMA fights. He has a background in Shorinji Kempo.

7. Katsunori Kikuno
Kikuno is a master of both Kyokushin Karate and Judo, current DEEP LW Champion, famous for fighting in an unorthodox Sochin-dachi stance.

8. Rory Markham
Rory who fought in the UFC, IFL and other promotions has trained traditional Karate, Shidokan, Kenpo and Kyokushin.

9. Jeff Joslin
"The Inferno" is a former APEX WW champion. A 4th dan in Wado-ryu Karate, Joslin has won all of his fights via KO/TKO and has only lost via very controversial Decisions.

10. Seth Petruzelli
Seth is a Shito-ryu Karate expert and the first man to ever KO a much heavier (and heavily promoted) Kimbo Slice.
​

​

And 90 others!

The fact is, whether you're training to preserve an art, for sport, for the military, self defense, for duels, or what have you, your approach is going to be different. You will have different goals, and different training methods. And you will be training for something different in each case. That is the only point I was trying to make.

Then you should have wrote that instead of stuff like, MMA guys are pros, TMA guys are amateurs, weapons, crap in the street, rules, and all the other misstatements and misconceptions, Horatio.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Argus]

But just chose to ignore because it didn't fit in with your "only true martial artists" theory?

You're hearing what you want to. When did I ever say anything about "true martial artists"?

I was questioning the OP's perceptions of what is "Formal" and "Informal" combat. I don't think there is a difference; if anything, I would venture to say that modern sportive settings are a lot more formal than say, a roof top challenge fight in 1950's Hong Kong. And would you call the martial artists who took part in those rooftop fights professionals? I would think that most people today might classify them as "amateurs", though, certainly, some of them took their training to a "professional level" if you will. But they weren't a part of any organization, or sport, which usually denotes a "profession."

But whether you're a "professional" or not is irrelevant. Certainly there were professional warriors who learned martial arts. It makes no sense to say that they weren't martial artists. So, that's not my point. But does it make sense to call a battlefield, or a rooftop fight a "formal" fight as opposed to an "informal" fight?

What constitutes the difference, and how do you label one form of martial arts as "formal" and another as "informal"?

When asking such questions, they don't care pro or amateur, they're talking TRAINING METHOD and SKILLS.

Training methods and skills as measured by what standard?

Seriously?
From: http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f61/30-successful-karate-fighters-mma-1040386/

1. Lyoto Machida
The most famous Karate practitioner of today, former UFC LHW Champion. Lyoto is a 3rd dan in Shotokan Karate under his father Yoshizo Machida - a 7th dan and JKA chief instructor.

2. Bas Rutten
2nd dan in Kyokushin Karate and TKD, former UFC HW Champion and 3-time King of Pancrase, famous for his deadly Liver Shot. Bas finished his career on a 22 fight unbeaten streak.

3. Guy Mezger
Guy is a highly decorated US Karate fighter, twice World Full-Contact Karate Champion and a LHW champion in both the UFC and Pancrase.

4. Chuck Liddell
Former UFC LHW Champion, Liddell began studying Kempo and Koei-Kan Karate at the age of 12; the tattoo on his scalp reads "Koei-Kan" in Kanji. He got his black belt and won a national championship title in the style before joining John Hackleman in The Pit. Chuck has relied on the Karate background throughout his entire career.

5. George St-Pierre
Having trained in Kyokushin and its various offshoots (Shidokan, Ashihara etc.) George wears a Gi and headband adorned with Karate symbols before entering the UFC cage. GSP has often said that Karate had a huge impact on his life as a fighter and person. St-Pierre has recently received his official 3rd Dan Diploma, a new black belt and a new Gi directly from From Shokei Matsui, president of the International Karate Organization (IKO) founded by Mas Oyama himself.

6. Yuki Kondo
Yuki is an MMA veteran, having fought in Pancrace, PRIDE and the UFC with a total of 85 MMA fights. He has a background in Shorinji Kempo.

7. Katsunori Kikuno
Kikuno is a master of both Kyokushin Karate and Judo, current DEEP LW Champion, famous for fighting in an unorthodox Sochin-dachi stance.

8. Rory Markham
Rory who fought in the UFC, IFL and other promotions has trained traditional Karate, Shidokan, Kenpo and Kyokushin.

9. Jeff Joslin
"The Inferno" is a former APEX WW champion. A 4th dan in Wado-ryu Karate, Joslin has won all of his fights via KO/TKO and has only lost via very controversial Decisions.

10. Seth Petruzelli
Seth is a Shito-ryu Karate expert and the first man to ever KO a much heavier (and heavily promoted) Kimbo Slice.
​

​

And 90 others!

Then you should have wrote that instead of stuff like, MMA guys are pros, TMA guys are amateurs, weapons, crap in the street, rules, and all the other misstatements and misconceptions, Horatio.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I don't understand your point. Are you saying that people who compete on a professional level in MMA are not usually professionals, and that the sport is not geared around "professional" competition? Did I ever say that TMA guys cannot / do not compete in this setting? Do you disagree that most practitioners of non-sportive arts do not train for these settings?

I'm commenting on the OP's original points. I don't know what you're on about here, or how you're interpreting my points.

 

[Chris Parker]

Not getting in between the Kirk and Argus comments (honestly, I can see where both of you are coming from, and agree with both of you, in different ways...), but to address some of the other comments from the OP:

Recently I answered a thread with this as a subject but I feel it is strong enough a point to create a new thread.

Hmm. I'm going to second JKS's advice from another thread, and suggest you also take a moment to visit the Meet and Greet forum, and let us know a bit about you... it may help to get an idea of where you're coming from, and what has helped shape your ideas. Devoid of that, at this point, there are a large range of things that raise a few flags in terms of your take on things...

MMA is martial arts. There is no different between MMA and martial arts. MMA describes a skillset and nothing more.

Er, right. No. There are large differences between MMA and "martial arts"... depending on what martial arts you're talking about. What MMA is is an expression of a form of martial arts... and is more a description of a ruleset and context, which give rise to a specific skillset, rather than being described as the skillset itself. So that was backwards.

What you are meaning to say is informal vs. formal combat. Televised, Sport MMA is informal (no uniform is enforced, quick touch of gloves, and etc.). A tournament (typical) is formal-- you wear your discipline or school's uniform and render courtesy.

Er, right. No. For one thing, no, no-one is meaning to say "informal vs. formal combat". Next, televised combat sports are pretty much the definition of "formal combat"... in that it is tightly regulated, and, as such, highly formalized. So is a tournament (which, let's face it, is what MMA competition is as well, just on a different timeline). What is worn is not what makes something "formal" or not... unless we're talking about dinnerwear. And I'd suggest not wearing a tuxedo to a BJJ tournament, really (although that would be pretty formal!). Really, what you're seeing there are two different expressions of the same thing (the touching gloves, and the "render[ing of] courtesy" etc). "Informal combat" would be a mugging, for instance.

Sport MMA is televised and must follow certain rules.

You know they follow the rules even when it's not being televised, yeah? But are you trying to suggest that your "formal tournaments" don't follow their own "certain rules"?

The techniques are revised for 1 vs. 1 combat and non-lethal applications.

No, the tactics and methods are geared towards success within the context of the ruleset. In this case, it means one on one, and non-lethal, but it also (far more importantly) means a lot of other things. I mean, those two criteria can be applied to any tournament or sporting approach for any system, so it hardly means anything....

A mixed martial artist not participating in sport fighting is not going to limit his or herself in the street and/or against multiple enemies. Grappling is effective against multiple enemies but only if techniques are exectuted quickly or used to cause an incapacitated enemy to be some sort of defense.

Er, right. And you know this how? Honestly, this is just ideal conjecture... it might be true, but it might not (especially in the idea of "not going to limit themselves").

Every martial art can potentially 'work' in Sport MMA unless it relies exclusively on illegal techniques. No established martial system can be called broken solely because a fighter is not a champion. The fighter is simply unable to apply the correct technique.

Oh dear... right. No, not every martial art can work in sport MMA. For instance, I highly doubt my Iai training is suited to the Octagon. And "illegal techniques" isn't the issue... it's to do with the context being vastly different, the tactics being completely ill-suited, and so on. Next, no-one ever said anything about a system being "broken" because a person isn't a "champion", so I don't know where that idea came from. Finally, "the fighter is simply unable to apply the correct technique"...? Seriously? I can apply my technique fine... but it just isn't suited, so wouldn't lead to success in a ring. I really don't care about being in a ring, so that's fine with me... but it really has absolutely nothing to do with not being able to "apply the correct technique". Additionally, this thinking reduces martial arts to their techniques only... and implies that they all have the same ones. That is so far from the reality that this comment has no ground to stand on.

Of course boxing is a martial art. Running could only be a martial art based solely on cowardice. The term martial is not to be interpreted loosely or misconstrued. Martial means war-like or armed. And no I mean what I say. Competition is not combat. It is competition. Combat has only one meaning as well. Running can be competition but never combat or martial.

Running has been a fundamental martial skill for millenia, you realize... Most, if not all sports and games grew out of military training methods, with running being one of the primary skills, whether as a messenger, or simply moving from place to place. Tactically (although running doesn't necessarily mean running away.... so your application of the term "cowardice" is rather inaccurate), retreating is a perfectly valid and realistic martial tactic. All armies around the world have retreat as an option, it's incredibly short-sighted and ignorant to think otherwise. Oh, and your definitions are not what I would consider correct, for the record... try telling an MMA practitioner, maybe after a match, that what they did wasn't "combat"... there's a reason it's called a "combat sport"... not a "competition sport"....

No it doesn't; it makes it part of your conditioning. Running is largely moving from one point to another faster than a jog. I run 3 miles 4 times a week. I have never used it to fight someone. American Boxing is an art with a huge sport franchise. Outside of the ring it becomes deadly. Fight a boxer outside of the ring and he won't refrain from elbows and no cutman will fix your face. There will be no referee unless your girlfriend is there but she will have little to no authority.

Hmm. Deadly? Really? So you're saying that boxers, when they get in street fights, always kill their opponents? Again, this is largely unrealistic conjecture, combined with some overblown propaganda... I'd suggest keeping your head a little closer to the ground with the experiences of a number of the members here... you're just going to get called on such exaggerations.

What do you study and have you been in a fight for your life before?

Not directed at me, but just wanted to say that this didn't really seem to have any purpose to it. Of course, the reason you asked was because you wanted to answer it yourself....

I am a veteran of 2 wars and I have fought for my life in a few times on the street. So when you use martial arts to defeat somebody who wants to kill you it puts a great many things into perspective. I hope someday you get the oppurtunity to test what your studies of gifted you

And there you are...

Look, I'm going to be blunt here. With all due respect to your military time and street encounters, this means pretty much nothing in the context of this discussion. Add this to your description of yourself on your profile page, and things fall into place... but I'm going to wait for your introduction thread in the Meet and Greet area....

 

[Cyriacus]

Running has been a fundamental martial skill for millenia, you realize... Most, if not all sports and games grew out of military training methods, with running being one of the primary skills, whether as a messenger, or simply moving from place to place. Tactically (although running doesn't necessarily mean running away.... so your application of the term "cowardice" is rather inaccurate), retreating is a perfectly valid and realistic martial tactic. All armies around the world have retreat as an option, it's incredibly short-sighted and ignorant to think otherwise.

One of these days im going to learn how to articulate things without analogies. And itll be fantastic.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

With respect, I'm going to disagree with you on several points:

MMA is martial arts. There is no different between MMA and martial arts. MMA describes a skillset and nothing more.

MMA is not a martial art, despite the use of the term in the phrase. It is a martial sport. Whether we're discussing MMA or TKD they are both sport because they both operate in an artificial, controlled environment and use a rule set. It is not the same as a martial art, and by martial art I'm not referring to the sport version of said art.

What you are meaning to say is informal vs. formal combat.

Neither is combat. It is a sport. Combat by its very nature has no rule set or controlled environment. There may or may not be weapons. It may or may not be one-on-one.

A mixed martial artist not participating in sport fighting is not going to limit his or herself in the street and/or against multiple enemies.

A practitioner of any sport or art is going to react in the same manner that they have trained when placed under duress. If they do not train for de-escalation, escape/evasion, flinch response, gross motor skills, O.O.D.A., improvised weapons etc then they will not suddenly gain these skills. People do NOT rise to the occassion...they REVERT to their training.

Grappling is effective against multiple enemies but only if techniques are exectuted quickly or used to cause an incapacitated enemy to be some sort of defense.

On this we agree.

I'm not trying to bust your chops, but from a SD or 'combat' perspective, sport arts including MMA (as normally trained) uses the wrong methodology.

 

[Steve]

Originally Posted by Chris Parker
Running has been a fundamental martial skill for millenia, you realize... Most, if not all sports and games grew out of military training methods, with running being one of the primary skills, whether as a messenger, or simply moving from place to place. Tactically (although running doesn't necessarily mean running away.... so your application of the term "cowardice" is rather inaccurate), retreating is a perfectly valid and realistic martial tactic. All armies around the world have retreat as an option, it's incredibly short-sighted and ignorant to think otherwise.

One of these days im going to learn how to articulate things without analogies. And itll be fantastic.

You know that there are no analogies in the passage you quoted. Right?

Regarding the question, "Is MMA a Martial Art, a Martial Sport or something else?" I would say that it really depends upon how you define each of the terms.

In my OPINION, MMA is rapidly becoming a complete martial art. I have a broad personal definition of the term martial art. I think it's useful to distinguish between arts that have a competitive element, such as Judo, TKD, BJJ, Kyokushin Karate, and those that do not, such as WC. However, in my opinion, this distinction does not make one a martial art more than another.

What does make something a martial art, in my opinion, is distinctive technique so that you can look at people practicing the art and say, "Hey, that's Kung Fu, or more specifically, that's Bagua!" Martial Arts also tend to have a culture specific to the art. And really, the final distinction I can think of off the top of my head is that there are people within the art teaching THAT art. Come learn Wing Chun from me.

10 years ago, MMA did not have those things. Now? I think it does.

Ultimately, though, the hazard of threads like this is that everyone has a different definition of the term, and so I'm sure I'm "wrong" from someone else's point of view. But that's okay by me because this is largely an academic distinction and not one that keeps me from being punched in the face or armbarred.

 

[Cyriacus]

You know that there are no analogies in the passage you quoted. Right?

I dont know how you got that idea, but what i meant is that Chris and almost everyone else who says useful stuff tends to just make statements that explain themselves. Im horrible at that, and tend to make analogies that spend a whole lot of time saying stuff that could have been compounded into one sentence. Just look at when i explained running as being a martial thing on the previous page

 

[Steve]

I dont know how you got that idea, but what i meant is that Chris and almost everyone else who says useful stuff tends to just make statements that explain themselves. Im horrible at that, and tend to make analogies that spend a whole lot of time saying stuff that could have been compounded into one sentence. Just look at when i explained running as being a martial thing on the previous page

I read your post pre-coffee. First time I read it, I thought you were criticizing Chris for using analogies. That'll teach me.

 

[Cyriacus]

I read your post pre-coffee. First time I read it, I thought you were criticizing Chris for using analogies. That'll teach me.

Its fine! At least you have coffee. I seem to have run out. And its too late at night to go get more.

 

[Kframe]

Ok, im a little insulted.. If mma is not a martial art, then WTF am I? A overly technical brawler? Martial art.. Arts of Mars. Who are you to suggest that mixed martial artists are not in fact martial artists.. Im not training specifically for a cage fight.. Though I do want to do one before I hit 40. My art is not the typical boxing/muay thai/bjj mix. We are a mix of kenpo/boxing/wrestling/bjj(in order of prominence). So what does that make me and other mixed martial artists who are practicing in a similar style? I'm waiting with baited breath..

I hate this MMA vs TMA bovine excrement. What is stupid about it, is that both sides of the argument can learn things from each other. For the love of god, before I left my former school to come to my new one, I was a typical mma practitioner.(boxing/muay thai/bjj) and having made a 2nd bb shorin ryu friend and my new schools focus on using traditional techniques im learning a hell of a lot about tma skills and how to apply them. I found out that they do in fact mesh quite well with mma skills.

So I await the answer Chris parker and others. If MMA are not martial artists, then what are we? I am looking forward to a long reply from Chris parker that ill have to read 4 times because I cant understand the convoluted and drawn out eclectic answer im sure to have to ask 44 questions to figure out what he is saying.(IE Clarity please)

 

[Dirty Dog]

Ok, im a little insulted.. If mma is not a martial art, then WTF am I? A overly technical brawler? Martial art.. Arts of Mars. Who are you to suggest that mixed martial artists are not in fact martial artists.. Im not training specifically for a cage fight.. Though I do want to do one before I hit 40. My art is not the typical boxing/muay thai/bjj mix. We are a mix of kenpo/boxing/wrestling/bjj(in order of prominence). So what does that make me and other mixed martial artists who are practicing in a similar style? I'm waiting with baited breath..

I hate this MMA vs TMA bovine excrement. What is stupid about it, is that both sides of the argument can learn things from each other. For the love of god, before I left my former school to come to my new one, I was a typical mma practitioner.(boxing/muay thai/bjj) and having made a 2nd bb shorin ryu friend and my new schools focus on using traditional techniques im learning a hell of a lot about tma skills and how to apply them. I found out that they do in fact mesh quite well with mma skills.

So I await the answer Chris parker and others. If MMA are not martial artists, then what are we? I am looking forward to a long reply from Chris parker that ill have to read 4 times because I cant understand the convoluted and drawn out eclectic answer im sure to have to ask 44 questions to figure out what he is saying.(IE Clarity please)

By definition, MMA is not a martial art. It is a combination of two or more arts in a competitive sporting format. Now, if someone combines arts, names it, establishes standards for that particular combination and sets up one or more schools to teach that specific, predefined and standardized combination, then it can certainly be considered a new martial art (Kajukenbo, for example).

That doesn't mean people who practice more than one martial art, even when they're mixing them together, are not martial artists, and I don't think I've ever seen Chris say they aren't.

There is a vast difference between "MMA is not a martial art" and "MMA competitors are not martial artists". In fact, I believe if you look back a few posts you'll fine one that shows quite definitively that most MMA competitors are TMAists.

 

[jks9199]

It's very simple, actually.

Mixed Martial Arts is just that: a mixture of martial arts. It's a competitive format for martial artists, allowing a wide range of techniques and ranges. It's not, yet, a single martial art. That's coming, I suspect... but not there yet. There's still too much disparity and too much "\that's Muay Thai, that's BJJ" stuff rather than "that's part of the stand-up skill set, that's part of the grappling skill set..."

An MMA competitor, to include someone who simply trains at an MMA club but has no interest in actually fighting, is a martial artist. They're typically practicing 2 to 3 martial arts (usually a mix of boxing, wrestling, Mauy Thai or other kickboxing, and BJJ) in combination.

For the record -- kickboxing is not a martial art, either. It's a competitive format for full contact martial arts, with a somewhat more limited scope (standing only, knees and elbows depend on the rule set at hand) than MMA competition.

That concept leads to the biggest problem I have with many full contact and MMA fighters with really solid backgrounds in a particular martial art. They feel that they need to adopt things from other arts rather than learn how to use their art in the full contact arena in question. They're full contact fighting doesn't look like their martial art; their light contact/point fighting doesn't either. Instead, they're boxing (poorly), kicking (poorly), and wrestling/BJJ (poorly). Why are you putting all that effort into training, than not using it when you fight? Yes, you do need to train appropriately, and probably adapt or limit what you use from an art to fit the rules -- but it should still bear some recognizable resemblance to your training, no? Instead, all too often we see the same modified boxing stance, with little or no movement or strategy -- just clashing offenses until the bell rings...

On the flip side -- I've got no patience with the "Too deadly to compete crew", either. It's one thing if you don't choose to train for sport; after all, sport does take some specialized adaptations to do well. But you should be able to adapt your art to the rules at hand -- unless you're planning to go to jail for excessive force.

 

[Kframe]

JKS. Putting it that way we have a defined way of moving and dealing with attacks.. Since im new to my new school and there modern take on kenpo training we do things the kenpo way. Our philosophy on movement, attack, and defense and deflection are all rooted in kenpo. Now of course we do some things from other arts. A few cover ups from muay thai, slips/ducks/weaves and parries(and the double arm block, I love it) not to mention the wrestling and bjj. In 6 years when I step into the cage, you will see the root of what I do.

I agree that I cant stand when tma guys, learn grappling and then go to the cage, and don't look anything like there style. Machida is close, uses a lot of the point fighter techniques to good success. the large reason for this, is martial dilution. Sadly a lot of traditional martial arts now adays are diluted in there knowledge. Some of the ridiculous things thrown about certain techniques, is proof of that. For more on this subject I suggest Dan Dejurivics blog , way of least resistance. I have learned a bunch from him.

One thing ill throw in. A lot of mma schools do self defense work.. My former school regularly did multi attacker drills and sparring.. A lot in my area do in fact. Its a good way to teach movement as defense.

 

[jks9199]

JKS. Putting it that way we have a defined way of moving and dealing with attacks.. Since im new to my new school and there modern take on kenpo training we do things the kenpo way. Our philosophy on movement, attack, and defense and deflection are all rooted in kenpo. Now of course we do some things from other arts. A few cover ups from muay thai, slips/ducks/weaves and parries(and the double arm block, I love it) not to mention the wrestling and bjj. In 6 years when I step into the cage, you will see the root of what I do.

I agree that I cant stand when tma guys, learn grappling and then go to the cage, and don't look anything like there style. Machida is close, uses a lot of the point fighter techniques to good success. the large reason for this, is martial dilution. Sadly a lot of traditional martial arts now adays are diluted in there knowledge. Some of the ridiculous things thrown about certain techniques, is proof of that. For more on this subject I suggest Dan Dejurivics blog , way of least resistance. I have learned a bunch from him.

One thing ill throw in. A lot of mma schools do self defense work.. My former school regularly did multi attacker drills and sparring.. A lot in my area do in fact. Its a good way to teach movement as defense.

I don't think you understood what I wrote. Your school, based on your statement is, in essence, kenpo school -- with modifications. It's being taught in an MMA framework -- but it's still that modified kenpo. But the bigger misunderstanding is the line about Machida and point fighting. If I were to step into a boxing ring, I would do Bando, limited to small subset of the hand techniques. If I were to kickbox -- I'd simply do what I've trained, but actually deliver the power rather than pull the shots like I would in a point tournament. If step into an MMA ring -- it's Bando. On the street, at work... the same principles and strategies apply, though the goal and limits change. And someone who's familiar with it would look at me, and know what I was doing.

At one point, you could look at fighters and have a solid idea of what style they practiced by how the fought; their stances, their techniques, and their strategies would reflect that. As the game changed, rather than trying to adapt their art to the changes, they imitated what they saw working. Returning to the MMA discussion -- when the first UFC events brought BJJ to the view of the public, you saw lots of people flock to that. They didn't look at the principles of their art, and say "Hey, we've got these guys grabbing us and holding on... how do we answer that?" -- they ran out and took a handful of BJJ lessons. (Sometimes, that was literally all!) Lately, for the self defense folks -- it's been the RBSD and Krav Maga programs. Including getting weekend "certifications" in them.

Now, not all arts contain an answer. Sukerkind's iai, for an extreme example, may not have much about being grabbed and taken to the ground, since it's not exactly what the whole art is about. Or the answers in that art may not be appropriate or workable for the rules of an MMA event. In those cases, you might need to look outside... but then, ideally, you have to take the time to integrate it so that you're not doing a frankensteinian mess that fights itself.

 

[Kframe]

JKS, about Machida. I mentioned point fighting because that is the skills he is using in the cage. When it comes to traditional skills, such as stances, and deflections and what not I see very little traditional karate in what he does. That was my point about Machida. He just does not look like his style.

You mentioned arts having answers for guys grabbing them.. Well, ya, but bjj is different. The kinds of throws TMA Karate helps you defend against are not the go to throws that a BJJ would go for at first. The single and double leg is usually the go to, followed by the various hip toss's. The best way to deal with them is range, they will tire out if they keep missing there shots. No art can prepare you for every unarmed h2h situation.

As my first style was and still is boxing(till I get more acclimated in my new place) I had a serious fear of anything grappling related. MMA/bjj has largely eliminated those fears.

 

[Chris Parker]

Ok, im a little insulted.. If mma is not a martial art, then WTF am I? A overly technical brawler? Martial art.. Arts of Mars. Who are you to suggest that mixed martial artists are not in fact martial artists.. Im not training specifically for a cage fight.. Though I do want to do one before I hit 40. My art is not the typical boxing/muay thai/bjj mix. We are a mix of kenpo/boxing/wrestling/bjj(in order of prominence). So what does that make me and other mixed martial artists who are practicing in a similar style? I'm waiting with baited breath..

Hmm, you seem to have been offended by something you misunderstood...

I hate this MMA vs TMA bovine excrement. What is stupid about it, is that both sides of the argument can learn things from each other. For the love of god, before I left my former school to come to my new one, I was a typical mma practitioner.(boxing/muay thai/bjj) and having made a 2nd bb shorin ryu friend and my new schools focus on using traditional techniques im learning a hell of a lot about tma skills and how to apply them. I found out that they do in fact mesh quite well with mma skills.

Okay... you realize that techniques are really not the point, yeah?

So I await the answer Chris parker and others. If MMA are not martial artists, then what are we? I am looking forward to a long reply from Chris parker that ill have to read 4 times because I cant understand the convoluted and drawn out eclectic answer im sure to have to ask 44 questions to figure out what he is saying.(IE Clarity please)

Hmm... right.

JKS. Putting it that way we have a defined way of moving and dealing with attacks.. Since im new to my new school and there modern take on kenpo training we do things the kenpo way. Our philosophy on movement, attack, and defense and deflection are all rooted in kenpo. Now of course we do some things from other arts. A few cover ups from muay thai, slips/ducks/weaves and parries(and the double arm block, I love it) not to mention the wrestling and bjj. In 6 years when I step into the cage, you will see the root of what I do.

So you're in an eclectic Kempo school, not an MMA gym.... where's the angst from?

I agree that I cant stand when tma guys, learn grappling and then go to the cage, and don't look anything like there style. Machida is close, uses a lot of the point fighter techniques to good success. the large reason for this, is martial dilution. Sadly a lot of traditional martial arts now adays are diluted in there knowledge. Some of the ridiculous things thrown about certain techniques, is proof of that. For more on this subject I suggest Dan Dejurivics blog , way of least resistance. I have learned a bunch from him.

Er... right.... again, you seem to have missed the point of what makes something a martial art... it ain't the techniques... but the techniques are the expression of it...

One thing ill throw in. A lot of mma schools do self defense work.. My former school regularly did multi attacker drills and sparring.. A lot in my area do in fact. Its a good way to teach movement as defense.

I've seen a lot who claim it... but, really, self defence (weapon defence, group defence etc) is kinda the opposite of MMA, when you get down to it. Most that actually do deal with an attempt at it aren't doing MMA at that point... but that's another issue.

JKS, about Machida. I mentioned point fighting because that is the skills he is using in the cage. When it comes to traditional skills, such as stances, and deflections and what not I see very little traditional karate in what he does. That was my point about Machida. He just does not look like his style.

That's what you think are "traditional skills"? Nope, they're cultural (and system-specific) expressions, not the art itself... just the "wrapping", as it were.

You mentioned arts having answers for guys grabbing them.. Well, ya, but bjj is different. The kinds of throws TMA Karate helps you defend against are not the go to throws that a BJJ would go for at first. The single and double leg is usually the go to, followed by the various hip toss's. The best way to deal with them is range, they will tire out if they keep missing there shots. No art can prepare you for every unarmed h2h situation.

Hmm.... and you think that hip throws, single and double leg takedowns etc aren't dealt with in TMA arts, such as karate? Really? They weren't invented with BJJ, you know... and there are better defences.

As my first style was and still is boxing(till I get more acclimated in my new place) I had a serious fear of anything grappling related. MMA/bjj has largely eliminated those fears.

Okay, good for you.... not really saying you have much experience to tell others what it is or isn't though, wouldn't you say?

 

[Kframe]

Chris, I am not familiar with how to do that multi quote thing so ill not attempt it. Here are my points.

1. Im fully aware that bjj did not invent the single and double leg takedowns, as well as the hiptoss's. Does not change the fact that the simpler take downs are what they gravitate towards.
2. Im also fully aware of better defenses against those takedowns.. Sprawling for one, is probably the best for the single/double leg takedowns.
3. You say that karate for example deals with them. Im going to assume you mean both using them and defending them. It must not be a subject that is worked enough then. For instance, I can only find a few videos of TKD doing take down defense against single/double legs. Maybe my google-fu is poor, I have yet to see any videos of the various karate practicing take down defense against those specific attacks. Yes I have seen them doing defense against hip toss's and the other throws, but never the single/double leg.

4. You said that it is not about the techniques. Being that I only care about the practical application of techniques, why would I be focused on anything else? Im not interested in the spiritual side. I have my beliefs for that. If its not about the techniques, they why bother doing anything since techniques are not the focus? You say that those things are just cultural and systemic expressions, not the art. How can you have a martial art with out techniques?? I need clarity on that statement please.

 

[Cyriacus]

Chris, I am not familiar with how to do that multi quote thing so ill not attempt it. Here are my points.

Highlight a section of text you want seperated, and hit the little speech bubble up next to bold/italic/underline and all that.

So,

if i selected

this.
Itll wrap quotes around it.

Hit reply on this message and see how it did the formatting