Traditional vs MMA

[Ybot]

I posit 2000 years of warfare in which Kung Fu, Bando, and combative styles of Muai Thai were used and used effectively in real combat. The students of history on this thread should readily admit this history is factual and true. They should also admit that it wasn't 2000 years of luck, I hope.

Here's the problem I have with the history arguement...

The all martial arts techniques probably have some truth to them for exactly the point made in your arguement. But, the thing is that styles were free to adapt and change and if you found something to be more effective for you in battle you most likely are not going to throw it out because it is not part of the dogmatic view of your style. Now the problem comes when hand to hand combat is no longer prevelent in modern warfare. Are you now alowed to adapt technique? If so, how do you know your adaptation is effective?

Anyway, the more I read this thread the more I believe it is more a matter of how you train, and how closely you simulate the actual conditions you are training for. Also I believe you should have the option of adapting or discarding the things that don't work for you. MMA rules matches are not perfect simulations, but they arn't the worst I've seen, and they at least allow for as much adaptation as you want. Some other MAs train like this, but there is a lot that don't.

I trained in an art that, quite honestly, didn't do the greatest job in this area, so I will admit that my oppinions are colored by my own experience in a TMA. It wasn't the art, though, it was how we practiced. Also, for the record, despite this, I wouldn't go back and change anything about my early training. It wasn't a waist by any means. My early instructor was a good man, and taught me many valuable lessons I take with me today.

I freely admit that BJJ the way I practice is not the most effective for a lot of self defense situations. I could make it more realistic if I choose, but I'm not too keen on getting punched full contact in the face all the time.

All our training methods have weaknesses and it's good if we learn recognize them, even if we choose to continue training as is.

 

[Colin_Linz]

Hey, I like those movies!

I have them both, plus a few others.

Did you know that the Japanese title of The Killing Machine is Shorinji Kempo, they changed it for the American market. I like the original title.

 

[Colin_Linz]

to me mma's are some one training to fight and incorporating whatever is usable into their skill set to win a fight, so obviously it is a good fighting art, because thats all it is about, fighting.

a traditonal arts has more things than just fighting, a history, forms, meditation, health arts, fighting arts, weapons, and more, it is an art that encompasses many aspects of life, not just fighting.

I’m not as sure that by only incorporating what works for you makes a good system. Just because someone has not understood a technique doesn’t make it a bad technique, just as if a rule set works better with certain types of techniques does not make other techniques less viable when the rule set is removed.

I’ve seen a number of people that have trouble in applying some of our techniques in a free situation and others that have no difficulty at all, but what I have also noted is that when training continues everyone can use them effectively to varying degrees.

Certainly only practicing techniques that you can innately pick up or use in a particular rule set will speed up your gain of proficiency in this environment. However I think this is a separate issue to the parent styles worth as a self-defence tool.

 

[Kensai]

Easy.

The wrestling contests of the greeks were based on the greco-roman throws combined with submissions.

Wrestling contests are one of the oldest themes of pre-doric greek writing (which is written in Linear B). Linear B writings mention organized submission wrestling contests more than 1000 years before the birth of Chirst. It is mentioned in late pre-Doric literature including Homer's works.

Boxing emerged somewhat later. However, by the early doric period, boxing supplemented wrestling as both a component of military training and as a sport.

By 684 B.C. (according to wikipedia... I had to look up the date), an Olympic game called pancration was introduced. This was intended to answer the question of whether wrestling or boxing was better. The point was apparently moot already, as military men trained in both. In any case, what emerged as a winning strategy came in the form of the early powerhouse in the games, Sparta. Spartan fighters often essentially ground and pounded their opponents, throwing them to the ground, mounting them and then finishing them with strikes. When biting and eyegouging were banned, however, Sparta withdrew from pancration competitions. At this point, submissions and standup fighting began to compete effectively with the spartan strategy. Other city-states would compete to great sucess.

At the outbreak of the Pel. war, pancrationists were often placed at the head of military training programs, and pancration at this point began to displace seperate boxing and wrestling programs.

Alexander the Great considered pancration as one of the most important indicators of soldiers abilities, and pancration tournaments were used to fill empty command positions in his army. His personal bodyguards were mostly pancrationists as well.

With the coming of the roman empire, pancration became less common, as the Romans generally prefered to treat wrestling and boxing as seperate components of military training. The Roman close range fighting was based in no small part on the submission style wrestling of the greek military, and wrestling and boxing matches were very common througout Roman history.

With the fall of the roman empire, wrestling remained a major part of battlefield training for the military elite - knights and mercenaries. This may have been the origin of the pin rule - a pin in practice would have symbolized an ability to control the opponent long enough to use a secondary weapon from a dominent position.

Variations on the greco-roman submission style led to ringkampf, a german submission wrestling style that also apparently included rapid-fire punches and knifework on the ground. Most of ringkampf has been lost, but it became the main military training component for the late Teutonic knights, as well as german knights of all stripes - it later spread into italy and may have influenced Turkish and russian wrestling as well. Some parts of it remain because the training manuels were quoted in later works.

The English and Dutch also created their own unique variations - which still exist today as "Catch wrestling."

Though boxing had been in decline, it was hardly lost - as armies professionalized, boxing came back into heavier military use for less armored troops.

The advant of the firearm changed all this. Ringkampf was forgotten... greco-roman wrestling became far less common, and was ussually now done for a pin rather than a submission.

Boxing was hardly dead. In the Napoleonic wars, manuels on boxing were distributed to military commanders on all sides and it is unclear who started the idea of standardized army-wide boxing, but the manuels of the time make it clear it was expected, if not always followed up on. It was intended as a close combat system.

Boxing remains a part of standard military training in the western world to this day, although now it is ussually simply a part of the general military combatives program - a WWII era development.

I take it you already know the history of BJJ and Muay Thai, the other two major MMA styles.



I'll look forward to that.

But these are also all individual arts, with a "traditional" back ground in their own right. Who gets to say that they're the sole excluse of the MMAtist? If someone does Muay Thai, are they doing a MMA style? Or a traditional style? The problem here is that there are many crossovers, where supposed modern, MMA actually have roots in the traditional and explaining them to be something brand new and separate depends upon the individuals POV. Perhaps the real issue here is saying that some TMA's are more effective than other TMA's in the ring? TMA that are ring tested Muay Thai, boxing, greco roman etc. As opposed to making something new (MMA) and saying that MMA is more effective than TMA....? Just a thought.

 

[Floating Egg]

I for one train in a lot of small joint manipulation, and like it a great deal. I'd like to see how it works against a ground fighter's tactics. I'm asking honestly. Does anyone here know of a situation of someone skilled in SJM trying to use it against a ground fighter?

In my experience in Judo and Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, small joint manipulation does not work well with an opponent that is having an adrenaline dump. When you're on the ground, you're working, so it's difficult to actually grab a hold of someone long enough to use SJM, and it doesn't cause as much pain as you'd think it would.

I find that Judo and BJJ practitioners tend to put themselves in compromising positions when they're on the ground, so biting, pulling the clavicle, fish-hooking, and biting can be effective, but I wouldn't depend on either of them in a real altercation.

 

[Brother John]

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Traditional MA Vs. MMA

I see lots of valid points in both sides, but really it boils down..as Andrew Said, to personal preference. BOTH can be very effective.

..so no matter what you do:
1. TRAIN HARD
2. TRAIN OFTEN
3. ENJOY.....

Your Brother
John

 

[MJS]

RBSD = systems based on self defense theories that lack both a traditional basis and do not participate sucessfully or often in sports competitions.

Why should they engage in sports competitions? That is not what they're geared for. The effectiveness of something should not be based on whether or not they enter the UFC.

MMA = the collection of techniques, priciples, concepts, training methods and practices used sucessfully and consistantly by cagefighter and participants in similar events. MMA is ussually thought of as a blend of four styles - Western boxing, western wrestling, Muay Thai, and BJJ. However, arts which cover the same or very similar material can be substituted - i.e. SAMBO for BJJ and wrestling, kyokushin for muay thai, San Shou for muay thai and takedowns, Judo for BJJ etc etc etc...

In addition to the above, it should be noted that it is a collection of techniques that work best in the ring, under the rules and preset conditions that are in place.

Mike

 

[MJS]

How many times is this ONE theme going to be Re-peated...
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.............................
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...

Traditional MA Vs. MMA

I see lots of valid points in both sides, but really it boils down..as Andrew Said, to personal preference. BOTH can be very effective.

..so no matter what you do:
1. TRAIN HARD
2. TRAIN OFTEN
3. ENJOY.....

Your Brother
John

Thank you and I agree wholeheartedly!! I said it before in a few of the countless threads of this nature...both can benefit from one another. Everyone trains for their own reasons.

Mike

 

[Floating Egg]

In addition to the above, it should be noted that it is a collection of techniques that work best in the ring, under the rules and preset conditions that are in place.
Mike

How is that different than the dojo? The dojo does not reflect real life any better than the ring does.

 

[MJS]

How is that different than the dojo? The dojo does not reflect real life any better than the ring does.

Unless you've seen how every MA school in the world trains their students, I think thats a pretty broad assumption. The majority of it is going to come down to how we gear our training. Someone, in a recent post, made a similar comment. I replied that just a week ago, my Kenpo instructor and I worked quite a bit from the clinch. Geared up, I threw a number of elbows to the head, knees to the body, groin and legs. With a little imagination, its amazing what you can come up with in training.

Mike

 

[Brother John]

Unless you've seen how every MA school in the world trains their students, I think thats a pretty broad assumption. The majority of it is going to come down to how we gear our training. Someone, in a recent post, made a similar comment. I replied that just a week ago, my Kenpo instructor and I worked quite a bit from the clinch. Geared up, I threw a number of elbows to the head, knees to the body, groin and legs. With a little imagination, its amazing what you can come up with in training.

Mike

Good for you Mike!!
Really......
MORE peolpe should not only THINK outside the box...
but roll and tumble there too!!!


Your Bro.
John

 

[Floating Egg]

Unless you've seen how every MA school in the world trains their students, I think thats a pretty broad assumption. The majority of it is going to come down to how we gear our training. Someone, in a recent post, made a similar comment. I replied that just a week ago, my Kenpo instructor and I worked quite a bit from the clinch. Geared up, I threw a number of elbows to the head, knees to the body, groin and legs. With a little imagination, its amazing what you can come up with in training.

Mike

It's a generalization, but not an uneducated one, and do you think that working a bit from the clinch in your dojo reflects real life?

 

[MJS]

It's a generalization, but not an uneducated one, and do you think that working a bit from the clinch in your dojo reflects real life?

Obviously you're missing the point. Perhaps, if your training is lacking, you should find out why. Not sure how long you've been training, but by your comments, it seems to me that your dojo is not giving you what you want.

All of my training, be it Kenpo, Arnis or BJJ, is geared towards that famous word "Aliveness." When my training partners are punching me, if I don't move, I'm getting hit! They give resistance in the initial attack as well as during my defense.

Again, your comments are based on broad assumptions, so unless you know how everyone out there trains, it is a pointless statement!

Mike

 

[Floating Egg]

Obviously you're missing the point. Perhaps, if your training is lacking, you should find out why. Not sure how long you've been training, but by your comments, it seems to me that your dojo is not giving you what you want.

I don't think any training environment currently offers me what I want to be perfectly honest.

All of my training, be it Kenpo, Arnis or BJJ, is geared towards that famous word "Aliveness." When my training partners are punching me, if I don't move, I'm getting hit! They give resistance in the initial attack as well as during my defense.

You're not answering my question though. Do you think your training reflects real life? In you reply to Rook's definition of MMA, you wrote "it should be noted that it is a collection of techniques that work best in the ring, under the rules and preset conditions that are in place." What is different about what you do in your dojo?

Again, your comments are based on broad assumptions, so unless you know how everyone out there trains, it is a pointless statement!

Mike

Are you suggesting that unless I have every last bit of evidence concerning a subject that I shouldn't make any assumptions? Are you that consistent in your own life?

 

[Kensai]

I don't think any training environment currently offers me what I want to be perfectly honest.

I'm genuinely interested to know, not trying to be funny, but what do you think you are looking for? Are you getting tired of what it is you do?

 

[MJS]

I don't think any training environment currently offers me what I want to be perfectly honest.

I notice in your profile it states that you train in BBT. If I may ask, how long have you been training in that art? What is it that you look for in your training?

You're not answering my question though. Do you think your training reflects real life? In you reply to Rook's definition of MMA, you wrote "it should be noted that it is a collection of techniques that work best in the ring, under the rules and preset conditions that are in place." What is different about what you do in your dojo?

In training, scenario drills are used to simulate real life, as close as we can get it. Someone could use a real blade to train a knife disarm, but what happens if you make a mistake? On the other hand, we could use a marker, or a blade with something such as paint or lipstick on the 'blade' part, to show the cuts. No-Lie blades are great for this. We can train a dedicated attack and while we stand the chance of getting 'cut', we're not going to die. The idea is to put yourself in the proper mindset, so we 'feel' as if this is a real attack. Peyton Quinn does this. When I'm running through techniques, may partners are trying to hit me. They're not stopping their punches 5 inches away from my face, but instead trying to hit me. If I don't move, block, defend, etc., I get hit, plain and simple. In my Arnis class, when running through the disarms, my partner doesn't give me the disarm, he makes me work for it. We'll stick spar to give us a more real feeling of what its going to be like if someone is swinging a stick. Certainly gives a different feel when someone is swinging alot faster, trying to hit us, while at the same time, we try to work our techniques. When I grapple, my partner does not lay there, letting me put that lock on, but instead, offers resistance.

Let me ask you this. Do you think that MMA represents real life? Where is the weapon work? Where are the mult. attacker drills? The training is geared towards the ring. Are they training for a streetfight? No, they're training for a ring fight.

Are you suggesting that unless I have every last bit of evidence concerning a subject that I shouldn't make any assumptions? Are you that consistent in your own life?

Well, you know what they say about assumptions right! As for myself, let me share something with you. When I first joined this forum, I was getting into a number of debates with other Kenpoists on here. I was running around saying that grappling is lacking in the Kenpo system. Pretty much everyone told me the same thing I said to you. I talk regularly with a Kenpo inst. who used to be a member here. He is always going out, working with grapplers, getting a better understanding of the ground. So, for someone (me) who said that grappling isn't in Kenpo..well, I guess I was wrong when it came to this person.

Mike

 

[Floating Egg]

I'm genuinely interested to know, not trying to be funny, but what do you think you are looking for? Are you getting tired of what it is you do?

1. Non-competitive environment that addresses contemporary self-defense issues.
2. Pressure testing.
3. Pre-fight and post-assault management.
4. Scenario based adrenal stress training against armed and unarmed attackers.
5. Pre-emptive strikes.
6. The psychological and behavioral characteristics that make up a confrontation, including, but not limited to posturing and verbal dissuasion.
7. Absence of woo-woo.

To answer your second question, no I'm not tired of taijutsu.

 

[kingkong89]

hello there

in the debate of which is better, traditional or mma, neither they are a matter of what the person puts into it such as tech. but lest we forget that mma is based on all traditional martial arts:ultracool

 

[FearlessFreep]

The's always the [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] Clouseau:/Kato training method...
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[Shrewsbury]

the thing is there is no way to determine what is better, for each persons veiw on what is better differs.

any way of training can be scrutinized and weaknesses pointed out. many seem to think that real training means some one is trying to hit you, sure it's better than if they punch to the side or pull there blows short, but still we can scrutinize this way of training by saying, who is throwing the strikes? how are they being thrown? most street thugs do not train and strike in some strange manners. also what about the intent, you partner does not wish to hurt you, no matter how hard he throws the punch, his intention is to be your partner, not to rob, rape, or kill you. again factor in mental illness, drugs, and adreniline and we have another mess on our hands.

I know people were upset when I reffered to this as the "my dad is bigger than your dad syndrome", but it truly is, well atleast most often. the only thing I care about in "your" training is what you can offer me, whether your style is better or you can beat me up is irrelevent, but what might i learn from you is important.

this is just the net and i will never get to see most of you or what you do, but by your words i can still learn more about myself, why i do what i do, and perhaps a little about you.