Towards a Minimum Hapkido Standard

[shesulsa]

Greeting,

I see some problems cropping up in this discussion mainly because the the widespread use of Choi's material with many different leaders and names.
I know some of you think screw the name it's the same techniques and to a point I agree.

The techniques from one line maybe be similar to the other line, but some people broke a way from Choi early on to head thier own system and not be part of Hapkido.

But as far as forming a "Hapkido Database" it's just like it sounds a Hapkido lineage database which is from Choi/Ji they coined the name HKD and stuck to it for the last 50 or so years.

Moreover consider this does Joo Bang lee & In Hyuk Suh think that thier systems are the same as Hapkido? Thier documented history does'nt mention Choi Young Sool at all? Will they cross rank a HKD dan for dan? Will they list a HKD school as one of thier official schools?

Why should Hapkido act any different by allowing them up a one way street?

They both changed the name of Hapkido and fabricated some ridiculus history, didn't giving any credit what so ever to Choi Yong Sool who taught them or thier Masters.

What do you call that? Why would anybody from Hapkido consider them Hapkidoin? Friends Ok, Respect for thier skills for sure! Hapkidoin No!

To Sum up:

1. Hapkido is Hapkido period!
2. Kuk Sool is Kuk Sool!
3. Hwrang Do is Hwrang Do!
4. Bastardized Hapkido is Bastadized Hapkido!

Again, not to be argumentative, but to be clear -

DJN Joo Bang Lee does document in his training manual that he received dan ranking in Hapkido, but he does not call the art he developed Hapkido or KSW or anything else but HRD. Students of this system, both those affiliated with WHRDA and those not affiliated with WHRDA do not claim lineage Hapkido - we do not say we study or practice Hapkido.

Now, if I am to follow your reasoning above, I have 1st Dan in my art. If I were to supplement my course of study with another art or massaged what I know now and call it something different, am I no longer a dan in my original art? My students would not be the same art I studied, rather the art I created, but does that take away my rank? Especially if I don't claim to teach the art I rank in?

Thanks again.

 

[American HKD]

Again, not to be argumentative, but to be clear -

DJN Joo Bang Lee does document in his training manual that he received dan ranking in Hapkido, but he does not call the art he developed Hapkido or KSW or anything else but HRD. Students of this system, both those affiliated with WHRDA and those not affiliated with WHRDA do not claim lineage Hapkido - we do not say we study or practice Hapkido.

Now, if I am to follow your reasoning above, I have 1st Dan in my art. If I were to supplement my course of study with another art or massaged what I know now and call it something different, am I no longer a dan in my original art? My students would not be the same art I studied, rather the art I created, but does that take away my rank? Especially if I don't claim to teach the art I rank in?

Thanks again.

Greetings

To be clear.

To me it's Ok to study or be ranked in others systems if you wan't to. I have also trainned in other systems and one thing has nothing to do with the other.

If you claim to be a Hapkido Instructor/Master or have a Dan rank in Hapkido you have to prove it. Having dan rank in Jujutsu is not Hapkido or KS or HWD or AKD.

I think that's simple and I hope I answered your question but I'm not sure.

 

[iron_ox]

The World Kido Federation/Han Min Jok Hapkido Association is as far as I know is a governing body for Hapkido.

World Kido was set up by the Suh/Seo brothers to give credibility to KSW. ANYONE in Korea can start a corporation and register with the government - just like Hyundai - doesn't mean they have any "governing" rights.

In fact if my memory serves me well and the facts are correct concerning WKF the first chairman was Choi.

Then you have a bad memory - Choi was the first Chairman of the Korea Kido Association.

Even if Gm In Sun Seo was certified in his later ranks in KSW that wouldn’t ex out WKF as a Won for Hapkido. Gm In Sun Seo did receive his black belt directly from Choi, but if you want to play term games on who is pure blood or tainted then be my guess.

So, he can hand out under black belts only in Hapkido, since he is only a 1st Dan. He can hand out what he wants in KSW - nothing too do with "tainted" - more like non-existant rank.


I’m certified by Gm Seo and WKF/HHA and do not care if anyone accepts my rank or not, in fact it doesn’t make a differences to my students or me. Now get on the mat with me or any of my students and I guarantee you that any them can take you to a very dark place. In NYC it’s on the mat that it matters most not on the wall.

Why would "I" wnat to get on the mat and train with a group that 1) is certified from a KSW person 2) has an instructor that thinks so much of himself and "dark places" (between the ears maybe) that the only response to this discussion is a knee jerk reaction of "well, I train with him, so the rank has got to be good".


If you plan on making a Hapkido standard be my guess but don’t alienate yourself or other practitioners whether they ‘re WKF, WHF, KHF, KFC etc…….

Who is alienating anyone - maybe the guy that says he can take us to "dark places"? "KFC" - I'd leave the Colonel out of this one - their chicken is great the world over...

Lugo

Lugo,

You are right there in NYC - why not train with Dojunim Chang, Chin Il, Choi's appointed successor if it is authentic Hapkido rank you seek - well actually from your statement, you could care less about rank and more about training in "dark places" - whatever that nonsense is. Homemade martial arts may be pretty to look at, but they are generally under battle tested, and rely on slick looking photo-ops to capture new students.

 

[glad2bhere]

ouch ouch ouch ouch

Good Lordy are we hitting the "soft spots, or what!?!

I want to start with Mike (Cuz you started this!!) and his question about non-aligned masters. Admittedly I took the safer route cuz I didn't want to open this can of worms. The fact is, though, that it needs to be addressed. There are a lot of people who are products of these little one-off "mom-&-pop" Hapkido classes. There are also a greater number of people who studied at TKD or TSD "who also teach Hapkido". Maybe they got rank and maybe they didn't. Working from a position of "inclusion" rather than "exclusion" how can be make a case for these people?

Then, spring-boarding off of the question about Joo Bang Lee we have the same question from another point of view. Everybody and the guy down the street knows that both In Hyuk Suh and Joo Bang Lee teach a variation of Hapkido just like Mu Sool Kwan, Mu Ye Kwan, Chung Do Kwan and Yon Mu Kwan all teach variations. I hold that if a person wants to be included in this validation process that we accept that Lee and Suh trained with Choi and produced their own take on Hapkido with their modifications just as Ji did with HIS modifications. IMVVHO I think its just about time that we present practitioners stop being bound by the prejudices and stupidities of the previous generation. All their antics have done is divided the community and pit people at each others throats. We may never know what happened back in the 50-s and 60-s so I figure in time Life will take its course and then Gawd can sort it all out upstairs. In the meantime we run the risk of continuing to disenfranchize people because grown men chose to act like children.

Between the two questions I think Mikes' thought is the more problematic. At least someone like Joo Bang Lee is a known quanity. I have no idea what we are going to do about people who trained with "Mr X" in the back of an Import-export office. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Black Belt FC]

Lugo,

You are right there in NYC - why not train with Dojunim Chang, Chin Il, Choi's appointed successor if it is authentic Hapkido rank you seek - well actually from your statement, you could care less about rank and more about training in "dark places" - whatever that nonsense is. Homemade martial arts may be pretty to look at, but they are generally under battle tested, and rely on slick looking photo-ops to capture new students.

I call Dojunim Chang and ask to train with him but he insisted that I wait for some new federation that he will create. He didn't sound convincing, he sounded more like don't call me I will maybe call you. So I just went over to see him in class see if he will allow me to train with him. Well I could clearly see that he was concerned that I was a local school owner and fear that I was there to past business cards, I wasn’t. In all my 26 years of training I never was asked to leave the mat, that day I was but not for any misconduct on my part. I’m done with this Dojunim, I do not need him or have a desire to be associated with him. If this is the best Hapkido has to offer, I fear for it’s future.





I in one point spoke to someone who was training with Ji at one time and asked him to give me details so that I can come over the bridge. He said, “Ji doesn’t want to take any new students who wasn’t part of the original group”. Eh? He gave me the impression that he was holding on to something so valued and wasn’t willing to share it. So valuable in fact that it allow him to forgo time in grade, just a silly rule to some.



As for my future training, Master Whalen has accepted my request to take me under his wing and help me continual my growth in Hapkido. I prefer to be train by him than any of the previously mentioned individuals, the man has integrity, honest and truly cares about the growth of Hapkido.

My Hapkido is not homemade I trained several years with Master Danny who is certified and recognized by GM Jung Park, but some individuals who want to monopolies Hapkido it’s not enough; suit yourself.



What I teach is unfortunately battle tested in fact one my students with just one year training fern off two attackers in less than twenty seconds, If ever in NYC your welcome to ask him personally.



My Hapkido classes are packed to the point that if I didn’t plan for my current school expansion due next week, students will start to complain. If you can do the same I salute you, if not your lacking something.


Lugo

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Folks:

I don't mean Paul any evil, but I am going to single him out because I think he may be VERY representative of a more common applicant. IMO we can argue and punish the older generatuion for acting like fools all we want but the people who get hurt are the current practitioners and THESE are the people we need to be speaking to. If folks want to continue to train with Lee and Suh and maintain that their art is NOT Hapkido thats fine. But for those people who have a change of view, or for people like you, Paul, there needs to be some sort of provision for authenticating what they do I think we need to re-evaluate what it is that we are working to do.

Let me say again, if a person wishes to hold that they do not train in Hapkido and that KSW or HRD or ICHF are separate and distinct arts I have no problem. But for the person who wants to secure some sort of validation for where he has been in order to get where he wants to go I suggest that knowledgeable practitioners are duty-bound to help out. Hey, I have been with Myung since 1990. If I want to be a hard-a$$ I can tell Paul he is out of the club and let him go such air! I don't think that is what Hapkido is about and I KNOW thats not what the kwan I belong to is about! The trick is to do it intelligently and with fairness and I would like to hear peoples' thoughts on this. Anyone?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

ouch ouch ouch ouch

Good Lordy are we hitting the "soft spots, or what!?!

I want to start with Mike (Cuz you started this!!) and his question about non-aligned masters. Admittedly I took the safer route cuz I didn't want to open this can of worms. The fact is, though, that it needs to be addressed. There are a lot of people who are products of these little one-off "mom-&-pop" Hapkido classes. There are also a greater number of people who studied at TKD or TSD "who also teach Hapkido". Maybe they got rank and maybe they didn't. Working from a position of "inclusion" rather than "exclusion" how can be make a case for these people?

Then, spring-boarding off of the question about Joo Bang Lee we have the same question from another point of view. Everybody and the guy down the street knows that both In Hyuk Suh and Joo Bang Lee teach a variation of Hapkido just like Mu Sool Kwan, Mu Ye Kwan, Chung Do Kwan and Yon Mu Kwan all teach variations. I hold that if a person wants to be included in this validation process that we accept that Lee and Suh trained with Choi and produced their own take on Hapkido with their modifications just as Ji did with HIS modifications. IMVVHO I think its just about time that we present practitioners stop being bound by the prejudices and stupidities of the previous generation. All their antics have done is divided the community and pit people at each others throats. We may never know what happened back in the 50-s and 60-s so I figure in time Life will take its course and then Gawd can sort it all out upstairs. In the meantime we run the risk of continuing to disenfranchize people because grown men chose to act like children.

Between the two questions I think Mikes' thought is the more problematic. At least someone like Joo Bang Lee is a known quanity. I have no idea what we are going to do about people who trained with "Mr X" in the back of an Import-export office. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Bruce

I like what you said polically but I think your a little off track, we or I'm not looking exclude but rather "include" people who really know Hapkido.

Master X who learned from Master X is the problem with Hapkido not the people who really learned the Art or can demonstrate skill.

If someone is a Kuk Sool player and joins a Hapkido school there can't be that much trouble except changing thier curriculum around alittle. Right?

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

".......I like what you said polically but I think your a little off track, we or I'm not looking exclude but rather "include" people who really know Hapkido....."

I'm not sure that I agree about being off-track and heres why I say that.

In less than two pages of this thread we have had both Lugo and Paul share very real experiences with the Hapkido arts. In both cases decisions by identified leaders (in Lugos' case Chang and Ji; in Pauls' case his teacher--- and I think there was someone else who spoke to Joo Bang Lee and In Hyuk Suh) have impacted peoples Hapkido career. Now, let me say again that if leaders want to act like "so&so-s" there isn't much we can do. But the students are the ones' who get hurt. Now, argueably Lugo "landed-on-his-feet" because he found Hal and will have all the validation and certification that he could possibly need through Hal and by extension, Hals' teacher. But what about Paul? if his teacher is no longer with Myung and had gone to Suh/Seo what then? And by extension what if in two years the teacher goes to Yang, Jwing-ming or Adam Hsu or the Gracie Bros--- what happens to Pauls martial arts career? See its OK if I as a teacher want to re-affiliate to other teachers but what happens to my students? See what I mean? These teachers don't act in a vacuum. And I can tell you from personal experience that when I presented exactly this questions to certain VERY well-know individuals in the Hapkido community essentially I was told "hey, thats life!" What kind of response is THAT? I'm sorry to keep hammering on this but we need to take better care of our people than the folks who came before us. The question-- "HOW???" Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

I don't know how you want to do this but here is my contribution for what it is worth.

My MA career spans from 1973 to present of which my Hapkido career is from 1985 to present. I, all four of my dan ranks, my schools and my students are certified through GM Kwang Sik Myung who was a student of both Han Jae Ji and later by Choi Yong Sul. The Yon Mu Kwan proceeds from GM Myungs' Hapkido experience and later evolved into what most people now know as the World Hapkido Federation.

BTW: As just a kind of addendum: My sword training which is part and parcel of the Hapkido Mu-Do practiced by the Yon Mu Kwan is also represented as a separate art in its own right under the tutelage of KJN Hyi Koo of the HwaRang Kumdo and HwaRang Kum-Bup Assns. Currently they certify my 1st though 3rd Dan.FWIW.

If you need anymore information let me know and I will pass it along.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Dear Stuart:

".......I like what you said polically but I think your a little off track, we or I'm not looking exclude but rather "include" people who really know Hapkido....."

I'm not sure that I agree about being off-track and heres why I say that.

In less than two pages of this thread we have had both Lugo and Paul share very real experiences with the Hapkido arts. In both cases decisions by identified leaders (in Lugos' case Chang and Ji; in Pauls' case his teacher--- and I think there was someone else who spoke to Joo Bang Lee and In Hyuk Suh) have impacted peoples Hapkido career. Now, let me say again that if leaders want to act like "so&so-s" there isn't much we can do. But the students are the ones' who get hurt. Now, argueably Lugo "landed-on-his-feet" because he found Hal and will have all the validation and certification that he could possibly need through Hal and by extension, Hals' teacher. But what about Paul? if his teacher is no longer with Myung and had gone to Suh/Seo what then? And by extension what if in two years the teacher goes to Yang, Jwing-ming or Adam Hsu or the Gracie Bros--- what happens to Pauls martial arts career? See its OK if I as a teacher want to re-affiliate to other teachers but what happens to my students? See what I mean? These teachers don't act in a vacuum. And I can tell you from personal experience that when I presented exactly this questions to certain VERY well-know individuals in the Hapkido community essentially I was told "hey, thats life!" What kind of response is THAT? I'm sorry to keep hammering on this but we need to take better care of our people than the folks who came before us. The question-- "HOW???" Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Bruce

Why don't they join a known hapkido association and straighten out thier problems I'm sure there skills will prove they know the material.

Yes this is the problem in Hapkido today and I personally would certify them if they were my students.

Lastly these are the reasons I was advocating a new Association that nobody liked on this board in order to seperate from these Korean charaters who screwed up the whole thing to begin with.

Everyone claims some wierd 2nd hand knowledge of Hapkido and wants real Hapkido rank for it, but as we see it really does'nt work that way 50 years later.

 

[shesulsa]

Bruce

Why don't they join a known hapkido association and straighten out thier problems I'm sure there skills will prove they know the material.

Yes this is the problem in Hapkido today and I personally would certify them if they were my students.

Lastly these are the reasons I was advocating a new Association that nobody liked on this board in order to seperate from these Korean charaters who screwed up the whole thing to begin with.

Everyone claims some wierd 2nd hand knowledge of Hapkido and wants real Hapkido rank for it, but as we see it really does'nt work that way 50 years later.

Why we don't join a known hapkido association and straighten out problems is most likely because of something we call loyalty to our teachers. And are we going to dissociate from the ones without whom we would have no knowledge of Hapkido whatsoever?

May I also ask who wants rank in Hapkido for their 2nd hand knowledge? I'm a little ignorant as to this, so please bear with me.

 

[iron_ox]

But what about Paul? if his teacher is no longer with Myung and had gone to Suh/Seo what then? And by extension what if in two years the teacher goes to Yang, Jwing-ming or Adam Hsu or the Gracie Bros--- what happens to Pauls martial arts career? See its OK if I as a teacher want to re-affiliate to other teachers but what happens to my students?

Hello all,

Well, umm, it seems really simple. If someone's teacher joins another organization, and it is not in line with the students aspirations as a martial artist, they should vote with their feet and leave. If you want to train in Hapkido, and are doing so, but for whatever reason, the instuctor aligns himself with a group that is not Hapkido, or is questionable, then the student should LEAVE. We are not in the dark ages here when people swore allegance to death - if that were the case, the instructors wouldn't jump from place to place seeking rank or whatever it is...

If your looking for Hapkido, go to a Hapkido organization, where the top guys actually have Hapkido rank...

 

[shesulsa]

If your looking for Hapkido, go to a Hapkido organization, where the top guys actually have Hapkido rank...

Hi iron_ox:

So let's say one does this very thing and upon reaching a higher color rank or even dan rank, the teacher has a falling out with said organization and leaves. That teacher is no longer part of that organization but falls into that category some are calling "mom-and-pop hapkido." So from your point of view, shall the student who originally sought out organized Hapkido and who learned and grew and changed from his and his teacher's efforts follow his teacher with the loyalty he recited many times in class or follow organized Hapkido?

If he chooses the latter, has lineage not been broken? Must he then re-align himself with another instructor from the orgnization his teacher left and be re-evaluated and re-certified?

Does it matter to anybody else on this board that a student have loyalty to a style rather than a teacher or method? Are we all comfortable with the forsaking of one's teacher should they misalign themselves from organized hapkido?

 

[American HKD]

Why we don't join a known hapkido association and straighten out problems is most likely because of something we call loyalty to our teachers. And are we going to dissociate from the ones without whom we would have no knowledge of Hapkido whatsoever?

May I also ask who wants rank in Hapkido for their 2nd hand knowledge? I'm a little ignorant as to this, so please bear with me.

Greetings,

People who learned Hapkido from unknown sources and really think they're learning Hapkido such as people who learn a few moves from a TKD master.

There are a many self ranking so called Hapkido stylists and associations with little to no connections to the Art.

Loyalty to your teacher is good and if you feel you're learning and you like him/her then stay there.

If you want Legit rank that many so called teachers can't provide that's a seperate issue and you may have to go elsewhere if that's your case.

 

[iron_ox]

Why we don't join a known hapkido association and straighten out problems is most likely because of something we call loyalty to our teachers. And are we going to dissociate from the ones without whom we would have no knowledge of Hapkido whatsoever?

May I also ask who wants rank in Hapkido for their 2nd hand knowledge? I'm a little ignorant as to this, so please bear with me.

Hello,

Again, maybe I missed the question, but as a practioner of HRD, you don't do Hapkido - despite Bruce's PC attempt to lump everything together - if DJN Lee wanted to be doing Hapkido, then he would call it Hapkido.

Not every Karate group is Shotokan - they wanted to do a differnt thing, from a different perspective, so we have lots of Karate - not all Shotokan - same thing here - there are lots of KMA's - some better than others. Some are TaeKwondo, some HRD, some KSW, and some Hapkido - all seperate, all with their own lineage and agenda.

What many are advocating - often becasue of lack of real Hapkido rank - is that the KMA'a are divided into two groups, Taekwondo and Hapkido - so by that broad brush stroke, if it is not ITF or WTF, then it is Hapkido (?), really? Nonsense. Stop calling these men foolish for doing their own thing - they aren't divided at all - they wanted to go it alone and have done so - and so be it, good luck to them and their students. But to say not that THEY caused a divide, no, not al all. They left to do their own thing - some better than others, the disservice comes when outsiders what to try and pidgeon hole them as something they do not want to be, or when they turn around after 30 years and try to stake a claim to a martial art that they left long ago.

 

[shesulsa]

Hello,

Again, maybe I missed the question, but as a practioner of HRD, you don't do Hapkido - despite Bruce's PC attempt to lump everything together - if DJN Lee wanted to be doing Hapkido, then he would call it Hapkido.

Yes, you missed the question. I know what I study and that it is not called Hapkido - did I make a reference that I did?

Not every Karate group is Shotokan - they wanted to do a differnt thing, from a different perspective, so we have lots of Karate - not all Shotokan - same thing here - there are lots of KMA's - some better than others. Some are TaeKwondo, some HRD, some KSW, and some Hapkido - all seperate, all with their own lineage and agenda.

Again, thank you for retierating that there are different styles of martial arts.

What many are advocating - often becasue of lack of real Hapkido rank - is that the KMA'a are divided into two groups, Taekwondo and Hapkido - so by that broad brush stroke, if it is not ITF or WTF, then it is Hapkido (?), really? Nonsense. Stop calling these men foolish for doing their own thing - they aren't divided at all - they wanted to go it alone and have done so - and so be it, good luck to them and their students. But to say not that THEY caused a divide, no, not al all. They left to do their own thing - some better than others, the disservice comes when outsiders what to try and pidgeon hole them as something they do not want to be, or when they turn around after 30 years and try to stake a claim to a martial art that they left long ago.

I don't see everyone clamoring after Hapkido rank in any way, really. I see the efforts of recording a family tree, if you will. Listing someone in a registry for a Hapkido rank s/he earned is one thing. If that person splits off and starts his/her own style and does not call it Hapkido and his/her students are taught the style by the name he/she comes up with, they are not Hapkido in the sense they are not part of the organization and do not learn - ahem - *pure* Hapkido. Nevertheless, anyone researching one of those new studen't lineage will see their teacher's name on their certification, then will research that teacher back to the Hapkido lineage no matter if there is a registry or not.

I think if a Hapkidoin were to wish for all those who learned Hapkido to just vanish magically and deny any claims to Hapkido lineage, perhaps that individual should shun hapkido as well. The age of art purity is over - we might as well get used to it.

 

[iron_ox]

Hi iron_ox:

So let's say one does this very thing and upon reaching a higher color rank or even dan rank, the teacher has a falling out with said organization and leaves. That teacher is no longer part of that organization but falls into that category some are calling "mom-and-pop hapkido." So from your point of view, shall the student who originally sought out organized Hapkido and who learned and grew and changed from his and his teacher's efforts follow his teacher with the loyalty he recited many times in class (what do you mena by this?) or follow organized Hapkido?

This is a very broad example, but I'll try. I don't believe in the mom-and-pop analogy. If the teacher has rank, then they should know enough to carry them to another authentic place to get rank. If the teacher aligns himself with a group that does not have rank in Hapkido sufficient to suit the needs of the student, they should look elsewhere. Teachers are not GODS - they may decide that the art they were originally doing is no longer for them - then the student should then decide if he joined a dojang for the art or the teacher (maybe a combo) - but to follow a teacher blindly is more like a cult than any true martial art I know.

If he chooses the latter, has lineage not been broken? Must he then re-align himself with another instructor from the orgnization his teacher left and be re-evaluated and re-certified? Sounds reasonable. He can still claim his original rank in Hapkido, seems to me, if he chooses to stay that course.

Does it matter to anybody else on this board that a student have loyalty to a style rather than a teacher or method? Are we all comfortable with the forsaking of one's teacher should they misalign themselves from organized hapkido? You just said a mouthful here - misaligned is a good word choice - if they misaligned, I hope students would leave. We are martial artist, not surfs or monks - when the teacher screws up, hey hes human, if he decides to take his martial career down a different path than the one I signed up for, well see ya later.

Using words like "forsaking" deeply trouble me. Learning a martial art can create and should create strong bonds between teachers and students - but that comes with the realization that as humans we make mistakes - I am always troubled when a martial arts instructor is giving "life advice" to students - sorry, but in 25+ years in Hapkido, I never attended such a class. Students should be loyal to a style and teacher because the teacher bonds himself through his words and actions, not some hokey chant in class or a daily promise to wash behind both ears and bow deeply to the south 10 times a day.

If an instructor attracts students with the promise of learning Hapkido, then he should honor that and be aligned with a Hapkido organization that is legit. Or, his/her students have an obligation to themselves to walk away.

 

[Disco]

As Bruce has stated, my question seems more problematic. In actuality, a big void is being constructed. It's been mandated that lineage must be directly flowed to either Choi or Ji. There are way to many old school instructors (Korean I may add), that have for whatever reason, derailed that track leading back. You can have 2nd and 3rd generation students from these people, that only belong to either that persons school or organization that they started. Now I know I will alienate those of you who feel hardened ties to so-called correct / authentic hapkido with this next statement.....But here goes anyway. The base root of any martial art style being undertaken is nothing more than a collective number of specific techniques that the originator saw fit to put together. Choi did'nt start teaching what he had "learned and refitted", with the intent of being a secular figure head. He taught people to hurt other people, plain and simple. What seperates the different factions within a particular style is their approach (physical and mental) to what has already been taught and variations will always be a partner with this. Choi did this. Ji did this. How many kwans are out there? They all don't teach the exact same way, otherwise there would be no need for the multi factions. So now to tie this back to Choi. Does the 2nd/3rd generation Korean Instructor teach what Choi taught, step for step, thought for thought? Of course not. So why the big mandate that someone HAS to be directly linked to Choi or Ji. To add to this, hasen't it been said that Ji directs his people to leave and do there own thing? What is the value of being linked to someone, when in essence, your doing something akin - but different, than what that person has done or is doing.

You can continue to set up your Hapkido Standards, but in all honesty, just who's standards are being implemented?

To all, I take this time to wish everyone;
A MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A SAFE AND HAPPY NEW YEAR

 

[iron_ox]

Yes, you missed the question. I know what I study and that it is not called Hapkido - did I make a reference that I did?

No, I've read lots of you other posts, sorry, I should have mentioned that.

Again, thank you for retierating that there are different styles of martial arts.




I don't see everyone clamoring after Hapkido rank in any way, really.

Agreed.

I see the efforts of recording a family tree, if you will. Listing someone in a registry for a Hapkido rank s/he earned is one thing. If that person splits off and starts his/her own style and does not call it Hapkido and his/her students are taught the style by the name he/she comes up with, they are not Hapkido in the sense they are not part of the organization and do not learn - ahem - *pure* Hapkido.

Here is the question, to me, when, for example, DJN Lee created KSW, he left the Hapkido name and philosophy behind forever - by his choice - so it is not Hapkido at all. This is the point - Hapkido is not a collection of techniques - but a part of the continuing Choi/Ji line.

Nevertheless, anyone researching one of those new studen't lineage will see their teacher's name on their certification, then will research that teacher back to the Hapkido lineage no matter if there is a registry or not.

If that teacher actually has rank from the Choi/Ji lineage.

I think if a Hapkidoin were to wish for all those who learned Hapkido to just vanish magically and deny any claims to Hapkido lineage, perhaps that individual should shun hapkido as well. The age of art purity is over - we might as well get used to it.

The age of "purity" as you put it has only just started - as the original roots of Hapkido finally realize that the art will die if every wannabe and break away suddenly decides that Hapkido is "now" for them and Hapkido ends up as a melting pot of sloppy credentials and "adjusted" history and lineage.

 

[iron_ox]

As Bruce has stated, my question seems more problematic. In actuality, a big void is being constructed. It's been mandated that lineage must be directly flowed to either Choi or Ji. There are way to many old school instructors (Korean I may add), that have for whatever reason, derailed that track leading back. You can have 2nd and 3rd generation students from these people, that only belong to either that persons school or organization that they started. Now I know I will alienate those of you who feel hardened ties to so-called correct / authentic hapkido with this next statement.....But here goes anyway. The base root of any martial art style being undertaken is nothing more than a collective number of specific techniques that the originator saw fit to put together. Choi did'nt start teaching what he had "learned and refitted", with the intent of being a secular figure head. He taught people to hurt other people, plain and simple. What seperates the different factions within a particular style is their approach (physical and mental) to what has already been taught and variations will always be a partner with this. Choi did this. Ji did this. How many kwans are out there? They all don't teach the exact same way, otherwise there would be no need for the multi factions. So now to tie this back to Choi. Does the 2nd/3rd generation Korean Instructor teach what Choi taught, step for step, thought for thought? Of course not. So why the big mandate that someone HAS to be directly linked to Choi or Ji. To add to this, hasen't it been said that Ji directs his people to leave and do there own thing? What is the value of being linked to someone, when in essence, your doing something akin - but different, than what that person has done or is doing.

You can continue to set up your Hapkido Standards, but in all honesty, just who's standards are being implemented?

To all, I take this time to wish everyone;
A MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A SAFE AND HAPPY NEW YEAR

Hello Mike,

I actually agree with most of what you've said - the issue for me, and the reason I am in favor of such a list is two fold: 1) To identify authentic students/teachers of the Choi/Ji line - including rank and training time if at all possible. 2) By doing so, to set parameters by which Hapkido is measured so that someone with a 1st dan in Judo, and a 2nd dan in Taekwondo doesn't suddenly think becasue he teaches some circulur wrist locks that he is a third dan Hapkido.

As a tertiary effect, I believe that such a list will finally seperate Hapkido from all the other KMA's out there - to their utter joy, I would imagine. Many who did some Hapkido went on to add lots of other stuff and call it a differnt name and create an entirely new thing...and then completelyt disavow Hapkido, Choi/Ji and everything else - awesome - now this list could provide them yet another avenue to go their own way.