Towards a Minimum Hapkido Standard

[American HKD]

Dear Stuart:

That being said, would a "family tree" of related individuals serve the same purpose, or would that tend to pidgeon-hole folks in some needless way? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Daer Bruce

That sounds good as part of the data base.

 

[Kumbajah]

There is a family tree at http://www.hapkido-info.net/html/hapkido_info.com.html maybe helpful in compiling information.

Brian

 

[iron_ox]

There is a family tree at http://www.hapkido-info.net/html/hapkido_info.com.html maybe helpful in compiling information.

Brian

Hello Stuart,

I say if you are going to do this, start fresh - that is a submit without verification page and full of questionable stuff...

 

[glad2bhere]

Still having a hard time getting my head around this. How about a couple of quick questions?

1.) The data base will based on a.) the completion of a questionaire and b.) substantiated by documentation?

2.) Will the data submitted necessarily be validated by some personage or can an individual just invoke someone as their teacher?

3.) How much of the material practiced must be Hapkido as opposed to Aikido, Judo or Ju-jutsu in order to be recognized as a practitioner of authentic Hapkido?

4.) In the end, those folks who have bounced from pillar to post with their MA career and have decided that Hapkido is the identity that they want to use to represent themselves in the Hapkido community, how do they figure into this approach? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

.........Still having a hard time getting my head around this. How about a couple of quick questions?

1.) The data base will based on a.) the completion of a questionaire and b.) substantiated by documentation? Yes

2.) Will the data submitted necessarily be validated by some personage or can an individual just invoke someone as their teacher? Must be validated of course (referances)

3.) How much of the material practiced must be Hapkido as opposed to Aikido, Judo or Ju-jutsu in order to be recognized as a practitioner of authentic Hapkido? I dont understand the question either you have HKD knowledge or not? Is Aiki-Jutsu Hapkido or not?

4.) In the end, those folks who have bounced from pillar to post with their MA career and have decided that Hapkido is the identity that they want to use to represent themselves in the Hapkido community, how do they figure into this approach? Thoughts? ..............

I for example have a 1st,2nd,3rd,4th,5th dan certs in Hapkido over a 25 year period all from known Hapkido Masters or Associations.

Someone who's 1st dan in TKD, 2nd dan in Jujutsu, 3rd dan in Hapkido with out legit 1st or 2nd dans in HKD won't get on my Database.

How could they?

 

[glad2bhere]

".....How much of the material practiced must be Hapkido as opposed to Aikido, Judo or Ju-jutsu in order to be recognized as a practitioner of authentic Hapkido? I dont understand the question either you have HKD knowledge or not? Is Aiki-Jutsu Hapkido or not? ...."

I was not thinking so much of that as much as the other examples I gave. One person comes to mind who has become something of a well-known personality--- with his own organization and everything. His background was almost exclusively in Aikido. His claim to being Hapkido is apparently only because some person from Korea came to the States and grandfathered him in as "Hapkido". Matter of fact I just stumbled across his website today!

(Excuse me I have to sneeze--- ah- ah-- aahhhhwomaf!!) Feels a whole lot better getting that out of the way. Anyhow, what do you think? Do you suppose a person who is validated only because it is organizationally beneficial would make it as an authentic Hapkido practitioner? Of course, it HAS been a few years and by now he actually might have some skill, yes? Who knows?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Disco]

Let me throw the "fly in the ointment" so to speak. There were many Korean instructors, that came to America during the "Big Influx" in the 70's & early 80's, that taught Hapkido but had no affiliation to any organization. The family tree was mentioned, but these instructors are not there because of non-affiliations. We all know that there is / was plenty of infighting in Korea within the kwans and governing organizations. In fact it still is on going today, from the current information being given. So how can anyone verify if someone submits their resume with those instructors listed? Can't be done. Also, it is somewhat common knowledge, that there are more than a few people running around with so-called legit paper, but actually don't have the skills to back it up. What do you do with these people, if paper is the key to opening the door? You are trying to stay out of the "New Organization" label at all costs, but in reality your right at the cusp of becoming one. I applaud what your attempting to accomplish, but from my perspective, your swimming against the tide.

 

[shesulsa]

I do not wish to be argumentative, however, I have the same question Disco has.

The family feuds of the Korean immigrants who brought their arts to America leaves some very capable, very knowledgeable, very talented and quite viable artists without Kwan unless they formed their own. Because politics often unfortunately divides great artists, is this perceived as a break in lineage by all? Does this mean the artist who successfully breaks out in his/her own teaches an inferior style?

I would like to hear others opinions on this.

An example that affects me is DJN Joo Bang Lee. He broke from his master long ago - for arguments sake, let's say he currently taught Hapkido. Would he then be not viable in the database?

I suppose I'm not clear on how you would address issues such as this?

Thanks.

 

[American HKD]

I do not wish to be argumentative, however, I have the same question Disco has.

The family feuds of the Korean immigrants who brought their arts to America leaves some very capable, very knowledgeable, very talented and quite viable artists without Kwan unless they formed their own. Because politics often unfortunately divides great artists, is this perceived as a break in lineage by all? Does this mean the artist who successfully breaks out in his/her own teaches an inferior style?

I would like to hear others opinions on this.

An example that affects me is DJN Joo Bang Lee. He broke from his master long ago - for arguments sake, let's say he currently taught Hapkido. Would he then be not viable in the database?

I suppose I'm not clear on how you would address issues such as this?

Thanks.

I guess no system is perfect and there are exceptions but how are we supposed to know who's who, and who know's what with out some paper trail or references that are beyond question?

Perhaps people like this will have to submit special circumstances, if it's Joo Bang Lee want a listing there's no question of skill but he dosn't call his Art Hapkido so he's out.

I know there are related arts to Hapkido then called it Hapkido not something else. I don't think a Hwrang Do or Kuk Sool Master would just up and give me a 5th dan site unseen or list my school as one of thier's do you?

 

[iron_ox]

I do not wish to be argumentative, however, I have the same question Disco has.

The family feuds of the Korean immigrants who brought their arts to America leaves some very capable, very knowledgeable, very talented and quite viable artists without Kwan unless they formed their own. Because politics often unfortunately divides great artists, is this perceived as a break in lineage by all? The term "politics" or "bad politics seems to creep into discussions anytime lineage is a question. Bottom line, you have Hapkido lineage or not. If not, that is fine, but you then should not call what you teach Hapkido...

Does this mean the artist who successfully breaks out in his/her own teaches an inferior style? No, not inferior at all, just NOT Hapkido.

I would like to hear others opinions on this.

An example that affects me is DJN Joo Bang Lee. He broke from his master long ago - (According to DJN Lee, his master died and was cremated with every belonging he had -apparently including all photos and documentation verifying his existance. It has been only in the last few years with the advent of widespread internet access that he claims some rank from Choi, Yong Sul - supposedly gotten at an event in 1968.) for arguments sake, let's say he currently taught Hapkido. Would he then be not viable in the database? If his rank could be verified, from the Choi/Ji lineage, why not put him in the database - BUT as you well know, Hwa Rang Do is NOT Hapkido - according to DJN Lee, so I would bet he would not want to be included.

I suppose I'm not clear on how you would address issues such as this? Don't really see an issue - no ranky, no includey - unless I missed your point altogether -
Thanks.

I see the idea of a database as a really simple one - include verifiable rank and make it, don't and you cannot be included - people, we are talking about a martial art whose founder died in 1986!!!! He left a sole man as his successor and lots of graded students - this really is not that hard. It may, however, be a bitter pill to swallow for some that want to jump on the Hapkido bandwagon after years of telling us all they were not Hapkido...

 

[shesulsa]

I guess no system is perfect and there are exceptions but how are we supposed to know who's who, and who know's what with out some paper trail or references that are beyond question?

Perhaps people like this will have to submit special circumstances, if it's Joo Bang Lee want a listing there's no question of skill but he dosn't call his Art Hapkido so he's out.

I know there are related arts to Hapkido then called it Hapkido not something else. I don't think a Hwrang Do or Kuk Sool Master would just up and give me a 5th dan site unseen or list my school as one of thier's do you?

I'm not making my question clear, so let me break it down a bit.

1. Is this directory purely voluntary, i.e. the opportunity to register will be presented in some fashion, then all who wish to register must voluntarily do so or not be recorded?

2. In the case of JBL purely for example's sake, he is 8th Dan (I think) Hapkido, but parted ways with his master (the nature of why I am not privy to). Would he be a) invited or b) ignored?

3. Your last paragraph is confusing to me, I'm not talking about rewarding an artist with a dan degree sight unseen, I am speaking of certified, rank-holding individuals who have since parted ways with their master. My observation (which could be wrong) of some Korean masters is that the habit is made of completely disenfranchising individuals or groups of individuals when a parting of the ways occurs; in fact, the excised individual or group - regardless of rank or ability or contribution - are often claimed to be unknown or demoted to white belt according to the master.

So again, my question is, do artists like this have a place in your Hapkido registry? I'm guessing not - would that be correct?

 

[American HKD]

I see the idea of a database as a really simple one - include verifiable rank and make it, don't and you cannot be included - people, we are talking about a martial art whose founder died in 1986!!!! He left a sole man as his successor and lots of graded students - this really is not that hard. It may, however, be a bitter pill to swallow for some that want to jump on the Hapkido bandwagon after years of telling us all they were not Hapkido...

Thanks Kevin I also see it as a simple, some people want to complicate a simple matter.

 

[Paul B]

Here's one for you guys....I have my lower Gup Certs. through the WHF...then from 4th on,through Hanminjok. There was(is) very little difference in training before and after my Teacher decided to go with GM Seo...so...what do you think?

GM Myung's textbooks were used throughout my Gup's,but I guess since my Teacher decided to change org's,that automatically makes me...what...KSW?
:lol: I don't think so.

 

[iron_ox]

Here's one for you guys....I have my lower Gup Certs. through the WHF...then from 4th on,through Hanminjok. There was(is) very little difference in training before and after my Teacher decided to go with GM Seo...so...what do you think?

GM Myung's textbooks were used throughout my Gup's,but I guess since my Teacher decided to change org's,that automatically makes me...what...KSW?
:lol: I don't think so.

Hello Paul,

You may not be KSW, but Seo , In Sun is not Hapkido - unless he wants to flaunt his first dan from Choi, third dan from who knows. Sorry, but he cannot have it both ways - said he was what, 9th, 10th dan KSW for more than 20 years, now poof, Hapkido.

No, what we are talking about is verifiable lineage - not just a collection of techniques - if that were the case, then why not just study from video tapes, then call yourself whatever rank the tapes leave off at? Simple, that is not a viable way to learn a martial art.

Your instructor may not be learning or have learned a KSW curriculum - but the ranking organization he is with is headed by a KSW ranked person - therefore making Hapkido rank from that organization questionable.

As alsways, just my opinion, we are talking lineage and rank validity here, not how hard someone trains or how good their technique is.

 

[iron_ox]

I'm not making my question clear, so let me break it down a bit.

1. Is this directory purely voluntary, i.e. the opportunity to register will be presented in some fashion, then all who wish to register must voluntarily do so or not be recorded?

2. In the case of JBL purely for example's sake, he is 8th Dan (I think) Hapkido, but parted ways with his master (the nature of why I am not privy to). Would he be a) invited or b) ignored?

I would assume, correct me if I'm wrong Stuart, that the defining element is if they have infact got rank - if they no longer teach Hapkido that is one thing, none of his students would be considered Hapkido certainly - but if such a rank existed, he should be on the list if he chose to be.

3. Your last paragraph is confusing to me, I'm not talking about rewarding an artist with a dan degree sight unseen, I am speaking of certified, rank-holding individuals who have since parted ways with their master. My observation (which could be wrong) of some Korean masters is that the habit is made of completely disenfranchising individuals or groups of individuals when a parting of the ways occurs; in fact, the excised individual or group - regardless of rank or ability or contribution - are often claimed to be unknown or demoted to white belt according to the master.

This very much sounds like the practice of Lee, Joo Bang. I had never heard of such a thing until I saw it on his web sight. In addition, it has also been his practice up until recently to deny any connection to Hapkido, then he pops up this "I got an 8th dan from Choi at a 1968 martial arts exposition" - considering HOW Choi gave out certification, this claim is HIGHLY SUSPECT - have you ever seen such a certificate? Choi always certified his dan grades with paper.

So again, my question is, do artists like this have a place in your Hapkido registry? I'm guessing not - would that be correct?

If they have legitimate rank in the Choi/Ji lineage, they should have their names included - however, if they no longer teach Hapkido and identify their art as something else - then their students should naturally not be considered Hapkidoin.

 

[shesulsa]

Thanks for clearing that up for me, iron_ox. I was wondering if other Korean masters "disown" their certified students and have heard it is done in more cases than the one, but have not been directly involved in any of these cases so I can't say for certain.

You and I seem to make similar observations regarding the HRD / Hapkido connection and no, I have never met DJN Lee nor seen any of his certs so I would not know other than what others claim.

One more question: Would a teacher provide a registry of his black belts and schools?

Thanks for your patience with me, folks. :asian:

 

[Black Belt FC]

Hello Paul,

You may not be KSW, but Seo , In Sun is not Hapkido - unless he wants to flaunt his first dan from Choi, third dan from who knows. Sorry, but he cannot have it both ways - said he was what, 9th, 10th dan KSW for more than 20 years, now poof, Hapkido.

No, what we are talking about is verifiable lineage - not just a collection of techniques - if that were the case, then why not just study from video tapes, then call yourself whatever rank the tapes leave off at? Simple, that is not a viable way to learn a martial art.

Your instructor may not be learning or have learned a KSW curriculum - but the ranking organization he is with is headed by a KSW ranked person - therefore making Hapkido rank from that organization questionable.

As alsways, just my opinion, we are talking lineage and rank validity here, not how hard someone trains or how good their technique is.

The World Kido Federation/Han Min Jok Hapkido Association is as far as I know is a governing body for Hapkido. In fact if my memory serves me well and the facts are correct concerning WKF the first chairman was Choi. Even if Gm In Sun Seo was certified in his later ranks in KSW that wouldn’t ex out WKF as a Won for Hapkido. Gm In Sun Seo did receive his black belt directly from Choi, but if you want to play term games on who is pure blood or tainted then be my guess.



I’m certified by Gm Seo and WKF/HHA and do not care if anyone accepts my rank or not, in fact it doesn’t make a differences to my students or me. Now get on the mat with me or any of my students and I guarantee you that any them can take you to a very dark place. In NYC it’s on the mat that it matters most not on the wall.



If you plan on making a Hapkido standard be my guess but don’t alienate yourself or other practitioners whether they ‘re WKF, WHF, KHF, KFC etc…….

Lugo

 

[Master Todd Miller]

I’m certified by Gm Seo and WKF/HHA and do not care if anyone accepts my rank or not, in fact it doesn’t make a differences to my students or me. Now get on the mat with me or any of my students and I guarantee you that any them can take you to a very dark place. In NYC it’s on the mat that it matters most not on the wall.

I think the question is more where did Seo recieve his rank not wheather or not you can go to dark places or not! Those that have studied Mudo for any number of years should have some skills. Hapkido is in my opinion either original DJN Choi,Yong Sul Hapkido or Ji, Han Jae Sin Moo. Any other lineage is not really Hapkido. Hapkido techniques can be imitated but it really does come down to, do you understand and teach the three principles,
Wha - Won - Yu along with a recocnized lineage to either Choi or Ji! Seo's brother is Kuk Sul Won and this is where Seo got his higher ranks! This is not really true Hapkido! This does not mean that it does not have any merit. I have respect for Master West & Master Timmerman who both have been positive forces in Korean Mudo who are from the Seo lineage. Hapkido has so many different groups and associations these days and we all see the charletans who I will not mention here! It is important for those of us that claim to teach Hapkido to get together and share what we do. This gives our students more to choose from. The major thing I see the further away from the Choi lineage you get is that the techniques tend to be less defined and sharp! I am not just talking about pain applied in techniques but the off - balencing, This is true Hapkido!

The Jungki Kwan has just released the Orthodox Hapkido Series of video tapes. This series is original Choi, Yong Sul Hapkido taught by Grandmaster Lim, Hyun Soo, 9th dan from Choi, Yong Sul. This video tape series is the basic curiculum from white - Black belt. This video has added extras of GM Lim demonstrating along with rare video footage of Doju Nim Choi, Yong Sul teaching and demonstrating basic principles of Hapkido.

Hapkido is not about darkness, Hapkido is about harmony and unity!

All my best,

www.millersmudo.com

 

[American HKD]

1

 

[American HKD]

Greeting,

I see some problems cropping up in this discussion mainly because the the widespread use of Choi's material with many different leaders and names.
I know some of you think screw the name it's the same techniques and to a point I agree.

The techniques from one line maybe be similar to the other line, but some people broke a way from Choi early on to head thier own system and not be part of Hapkido.

But as far as forming a "Hapkido Database" it's just like it sounds a Hapkido lineage database which is from Choi/Ji they coined the name HKD and stuck to it for the last 50 or so years.

Moreover consider this does Joo Bang lee & In Hyuk Suh think that thier systems are the same as Hapkido? Thier documented history does'nt mention Choi Young Sool at all? Will they cross rank a HKD dan for dan? Will they list a HKD school as one of thier official schools?

Why should Hapkido act any different by allowing them up a one way street?

They both changed the name of Hapkido and fabricated some ridiculus history, didn't giving any credit what so ever to Choi Yong Sool who taught them or thier Masters.

What do you call that? Why would anybody from Hapkido consider them Hapkidoin? Friends Ok, Respect for thier skills for sure! Hapkidoin No!

To Sum up:

1. Hapkido is Hapkido period!
2. Kuk Sool is Kuk Sool!
3. Hwrang Do is Hwrang Do!
4. Bastardized Hapkido is Bastadized Hapkido!