Towards a Minimum Hapkido Standard

[shesulsa]

As a tertiary effect, I believe that such a list will finally seperate Hapkido from all the other KMA's out there - to their utter joy, I would imagine.

Isn't it already separate?

Many who did some Hapkido went on to add lots of other stuff and call it a differnt name and create an entirely new thing...and then completelyt disavow Hapkido, Choi/Ji and everything else - awesome - now this list could provide them yet another avenue to go their own way.

Hypotheically: If I go on to create another martial art based on what I know from my current style and what I develop on my own through tutelage in other arts, does that not make me still a rank in the art I originally studied AND a rank in the style I develop?

Goodness, it almost seems to me that we are going to need a Korean Martial Arts Divorce Record outlining all who have began with Hapkido, developed their own art from their culmination of knowledge and no longer call what they teach Hapkido ... or Hwa Rang Do (c) ... or Kuk Sul ... or whatever.

I think that list would be the longer one.

Note: Hwa Rang Do (c) is a copyright of the World Hwa Rang Do Association and DJN Joo Bang Lee and I am not affiliated with his organization.

 

[iron_ox]

Hypotheically: If I go on to create another martial art based on what I know from my current style and what I develop on my own through tutelage in other arts, does that not make me still a rank in the art I originally studied AND a rank in the style I develop?

Absolutely, your rank and knowledge obviously stay with you - my argument is with groups that go their seperate way - then for whatever reason suddenly pop up and want to be Hapkido again - some 20+ years after they buy lots of magazine ad space to tell us who they are and they are not Hapkido.


Note: Hwa Rang Do (c) is a copyright of the World Hwa Rang Do Association and DJN Joo Bang Lee and I am not affiliated with his organization. Thanks for that, was unsure if you were affiliated or not.

Clearly, you would keep previous rank, but the issue is also more of what and how you want to be classified - if you choose not to be called Hapkido, who am I or anyone else to say that "the techniques look the same" - so you must be part of Hapkido. I say, be free to call whatever you do, whatever you want - just not Hapkido if you don't have the roots.

 

[American HKD]

Isn't it already separate?


Hypotheically: If I go on to create another martial art based on what I know from my current style and what I develop on my own through tutelage in other arts, does that not make me still a rank in the art I originally studied AND a rank in the style I develop?

Goodness, it almost seems to me that we are going to need a Korean Martial Arts Divorce Record outlining all who have began with Hapkido, developed their own art from their culmination of knowledge and no longer call what they teach Hapkido ... or Hwa Rang Do (c) ... or Kuk Sul ... or whatever.

I think that list would be the longer one.

Note: Hwa Rang Do (c) is a copyright of the World Hwa Rang Do Association and DJN Joo Bang Lee and I am not affiliated with his organization.

Greetings,

If I make my own system from my knowledge of an Art that I have a low dan rank in. then go on to rank my students in my system in which I'm a self proclaimed Grand Master in for the next 30-40 years. Then turn around and start to rank people in my first Art which I never mastered or got pass a 1st or 2nd Dan. Doesn't that sound crazy to you It does to me?

Unless thats the norm which it apprently it was in Korea during the 50s &60s with arts steming from Choi Young Sul. TKD is no different it's a direct rip off Shotokan. What Shotokan Master promoted General Choi to Master in Shotokan before he started TKD?

Thats the problem with Korean Arts and all the baloney that went on there in the 50s and 60s as they tried to establish themselves in Martial Arts when the country had little of thier own heritage to show in that department.

What Choi taught was directly from Japan with no Korean connection. Choi was one of the few real MA Masters in Korea after WWII with anything worth while teaching.

That's another main reason Hapkido people are proud of the direct lineage to Choi and not the rip off systems.

 

[shesulsa]

If I make my own system from my knowledge of an Art that I have a low dan rank in. then go on to rank my students in my system in which I'm a self proclaimed Grand Master in for the next 30-40 years. Then turn around and start to rank people in my first Art which I never mastered or got pass a 1st or 2nd Dan. Doesn't that sound crazy to you It does to me?

Who does this?

 

[kwanjang]

Kevin writes: "World Kido was set up by the Suh/Seo brothers to give credibility to KSW."

GM Seo was Chairman of the KOREA KIDO Association for nearly twenty years. During this time this association grew immensely and expanded to include the World Kido Federation (which was set up by GM Seo as a separate entity around 1989 when I was asked to represent Canada).

FWIW, Kuk Sool Won did not need credibility from Kido, as they were doing quite well all by themselves long before the World Kido Federation was established; in fact, WKSA prefers to be recognized on its own terms (just as you have said all along).

The Korea Kido Association was/and still IS regarded by a great many Korean Hap Ki Do people as the first Hap Ki Do organization. The first chairman was GM Choi himself, and after a number of other elected successors, GM Seo was elected Chairman in 1983. It should be noted that GM Choi was still alive during the time when GM Seo was elected to Chairman of the Korea Kido Hae, and for all anyone knows he (GM Choi) was part of the voting process.

Like GM Choi, GM Suh was past chairman of Korea Kido Hae, and his brother, GM Seo, was elected as Chairman after GM Suh resigned and moved to the US. A few years ago, Master Kim took over the Korea Kido Hae, and GM Seo continues to run the World Kido Federation which he created while Chairman of Korea Kido Hae. The two organizations now have no connection with one another other than having been run by the same person, GM Seo, for a long time.

Regardless of what his brother says or does, GM Seo NEVER quit teaching what he (and many other so called "legitimate" Hap Ki Do people in Korea) considers to be Hap Ki Do. Many of these legitimate Hapkidoin actually voted GM Seo into the earliest Hap Ki Do organizations, and he worked his butt of for nearly twenty years to promote Hap Ki Do in the Korea Kido Association.

Furthermore, GM Seo received his black belt from GM Choi. Who on this forum can say the same thing, and YOU folks are telling us that GM Seo is not Hap Ki Do??? All you can say is that you got your degree from someone who claims to have received it from GM Choi.

To say GM Seo is NOT Hap Ki Do is to say that GM Kimm He Young is not Hap Ki Do. If he is NOT Hap Ki Do by your standards, why is it that most Hap Ki Do people refer to his tome as the “Bible” of Hap Ki Do??? I’ll bet that a copy of his book is on your bookshelf... blasphemy!

What makes you folks the “authority” on who is or who is NOT Hap Ki Do???? You can’t even come to an agreement on WHAT is Hap Ki Do, and what techniques are or are NOT included and what to call them. I say it is a bit premature for you to think of yourselves as the “keepers” of the art. What is that I read a few posts ago... Harmony and Unity????

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Kevin:

Despite my "PC" approach ( ) I very much agree with what you are doing and saying. If I am at all in touch with what I suspect, where I am having problems is in the very place I would expect you, and Stuart and anyone else to have problems. It is very hard work dealing with all of these affiliation issues. We have people who make things up. We have people who have learned from people who make things up. We have people who have mixed made-up things with real things and there are people who have legit material and connections.

Now if I am understanding this new approach that I am reading about, a person would need to identify that they are, in fact learning Hapkido. I know we have some differences of opinion about what it is, but in the main I think that if a person could make an arguement for being able to trace their rank back through affiliations to, say, Choi, then this would be half the battle right there. Right so far?

Ok. If I have THAT part right the next step would currency or timeliness. In otherwords if a person can trace their lineage back to Choi it would have to be at the highest level attained. By this I mean that a person whose teacher, checks out of his organization and goes off to teach another art or stops teaching, when a student is, say, 3rd guep, would have to pick-up their lineage at that 3rd guep, unless they could connect with a comparbly qualified teacher, right? I mean you just can't keep on training and expect people to accept that one has promoted themselves along, right?

Now, if I have THAT part right, there is
a.) still the matter of a person who trains through someone like Lee (arguably connectd to Choi)

b.) still the matter of someone who trains under a nobody only thinly related to Choi.

Whatcha think?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Who does this?

I don't know who does it, I thought you were making that analogy so I expanded on it a bit.

 

[iron_ox]

Who does this?

Seo, In Sun for one.

 

[glad2bhere]

".....What makes you folks the “authority” on who is or who is NOT Hap Ki Do???? You can’t even come to an agreement on WHAT is Hap Ki Do, and what techniques are or are NOT included and what to call them. I say it is a bit premature for you to think of yourselves as the “keepers” of the art. What is that I read a few posts ago... Harmony and Unity????...."

Sorry, Rudy, but this is probably the first place you and I have come to a difference of opinion.

I know that on these discussion nets we toss a lot of things around, but the fact of the matter is that we are working on things that the great names that we are throwing around should have been working on a long time ago. Lee should have come clean about the HwaRangDo organization many years ago. And all of these people like Ji and Suh and Lee should have been more honest about what happened and why back when they were treating people like coolies. I have no crystal ball to know where all of this will come out. All I know is that I don't want to see myself, Stuart, you, Kevin etc ect ect repeat the same crap that was dumped on us when we were gueppies. Most of us know what a load of S*** we have from the past, and our only choice is not to repeat that. What I hear people hammering out is the work necessary to accomplish that.

Right now the single small piece that I am advocating for out of this entire mass is the idea of "inclusion" over "exclusion". I would rather take a questionable but highly motivated student and help him autheticate himself, than deal with an authentic student who is quite sure that his lineage guarentees that noone can teach him anything. We have a series of at least 10 major organizations which can and do exclude people for various reasons of authentification. We have people deperate enough to learn that they use mail-order to try and get it done. And we have people who are well-disposed towards culling-out anyone they view as "un-worthy". My point is that we are required to help the people who are disadvantaged to make their way. Lifes tough enough--- we don't have to make it tougher, yes? FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Kevin writes: "World Kido was set up by the Suh/Seo brothers to give credibility to KSW."

GM Seo was Chairman of the KOREA KIDO Association for nearly twenty years. During this time this association grew immensely and expanded to include the World Kido Federation (which was set up by GM Seo as a separate entity around 1989 when I was asked to represent Canada).

FWIW, Kuk Sool Won did not need credibility from Kido, as they were doing quite well all by themselves long before the World Kido Federation was established; in fact, WKSA prefers to be recognized on its own terms (just as you have said all along).

The Korea Kido Association was/and still IS regarded by a great many Korean Hap Ki Do people as the first Hap Ki Do organization. The first chairman was GM Choi himself, and after a number of other elected successors, GM Seo was elected Chairman in 1983. It should be noted that GM Choi was still alive during the time when GM Seo was elected to Chairman of the Korea Kido Hae, and for all anyone knows he (GM Choi) was part of the voting process.

Like GM Choi, GM Suh was past chairman of Korea Kido Hae, and his brother, GM Seo, was elected as Chairman after GM Suh resigned and moved to the US. A few years ago, Master Kim took over the Korea Kido Hae, and GM Seo continues to run the World Kido Federation which he created while Chairman of Korea Kido Hae. The two organizations now have no connection with one another other than having been run by the same person, GM Seo, for a long time.

Regardless of what his brother says or does, GM Seo NEVER quit teaching what he (and many other so called "legitimate" Hap Ki Do people in Korea) considers to be Hap Ki Do. Many of these legitimate Hapkidoin actually voted GM Seo into the earliest Hap Ki Do organizations, and he worked his butt of for nearly twenty years to promote Hap Ki Do in the Korea Kido Association.

Furthermore, GM Seo received his black belt from GM Choi. Who on this forum can say the same thing, and YOU folks are telling us that GM Seo is not Hap Ki Do??? All you can say is that you got your degree from someone who claims to have received it from GM Choi.

To say GM Seo is NOT Hap Ki Do is to say that GM Kimm He Young is not Hap Ki Do. If he is NOT Hap Ki Do by your standards, why is it that most Hap Ki Do people refer to his tome as the “Bible” of Hap Ki Do??? I’ll bet that a copy of his book is on your bookshelf... blasphemy!

What makes you folks the “authority” on who is or who is NOT Hap Ki Do???? You can’t even come to an agreement on WHAT is Hap Ki Do, and what techniques are or are NOT included and what to call them. I say it is a bit premature for you to think of yourselves as the “keepers” of the art. What is that I read a few posts ago... Harmony and Unity????

Dear Rudy,

Since I don't know the details about Master Seo please answer this is he a Hapkido stylist or Kuk Sool or Both? If both where did he get his Hapkido rank from and who taught him through the ranks to Master? Nevermind I looked it up and he's a 3rd dan in Hapkido the rest of his carrer is Kuk Sool.

Also I think people were trying to say a 1st dan from anybody isn't that impressive and if you moved on to another Art for the rest of your life why should people recognize you has a Hapkido Master with Hapkido linieage?
Kuk Sool Ok but why Hapkido.

Also to me being an administrator alone in an Association without training in the art is not qualifcations for lineage IMHO. School principles don't usually have degrees in all of the subjects taught in thier school. I know the Kido Hae says it over sees 30 arts or so.

 

[American HKD]

".....What makes you folks the “authority” on who is or who is NOT Hap Ki Do???? You can’t even come to an agreement on WHAT is Hap Ki Do, and what techniques are or are NOT included and what to call them. I say it is a bit premature for you to think of yourselves as the “keepers” of the art. What is that I read a few posts ago... Harmony and Unity????...."

Sorry, Rudy, but this is probably the first place you and I have come to a difference of opinion.

I know that on these discussion nets we toss a lot of things around, but the fact of the matter is that we are working on things that the great names that we are throwing around should have been working on a long time ago. Lee should have come clean about the HwaRangDo organization many years ago. And all of these people like Ji and Suh and Lee should have been more honest about what happened and why back when they were treating people like coolies. I have no crystal ball to know where all of this will come out. All I know is that I don't want to see myself, Stuart, you, Kevin etc ect ect repeat the same crap that was dumped on us when we were gueppies. Most of us know what a load of S*** we have from the past, and our only choice is not to repeat that. What I hear people hammering out is the work necessary to accomplish that.

Right now the single small piece that I am advocating for out of this entire mass is the idea of "inclusion" over "exclusion". I would rather take a questionable but highly motivated student and help him autheticate himself, than deal with an authentic student who is quite sure that his lineage guarentees that noone can teach him anything. We have a series of at least 10 major organizations which can and do exclude people for various reasons of authentification. We have people deperate enough to learn that they use mail-order to try and get it done. And we have people who are well-disposed towards culling-out anyone they view as "un-worthy". My point is that we are required to help the people who are disadvantaged to make their way. Lifes tough enough--- we don't have to make it tougher, yes? FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Bruce

RIGHT ON BROTHER!

 

[iron_ox]

Kevin writes: "World Kido was set up by the Suh/Seo brothers to give credibility to KSW."

GM Seo was Chairman of the KOREA KIDO Association for nearly twenty years. During this time this association grew immensely and expanded to include the World Kido Federation (which was set up by GM Seo as a separate entity around 1989 when I was asked to represent Canada).

FWIW, Kuk Sool Won did not need credibility from Kido, as they were doing quite well all by themselves long before the World Kido Federation was established; in fact, WKSA prefers to be recognized on its own terms (just as you have said all along).

The Korea Kido Association was/and still IS regarded by a great many Korean Hap Ki Do people as the first Hap Ki Do organization. The first chairman was GM Choi himself, and after a number of other elected successors, GM Seo was elected Chairman in 1983. It should be noted that GM Choi was still alive during the time when GM Seo was elected to Chairman of the Korea Kido Hae, and for all anyone knows he (GM Choi) was part of the voting process.

Hardly, the Kido Hae that the Suh/Seo brothers was a branch office of the original founded by Choi with Ji. The original organization continued to be run by eventually by Choi's son, Choi, Byung Il.


Regardless of what his brother says or does, GM Seo NEVER quit teaching what he (and many other so called "legitimate" Hap Ki Do people in Korea) considers to be Hap Ki Do.
Right, then why did he get all but a first dan in Hapkido, and the rest of his grades from his brother?

Many of these legitimate Hapkidoin actually voted GM Seo into the earliest Hap Ki Do organizations, and he worked his butt of for nearly twenty years to promote Hap Ki Do in the Korea Kido Association.
Which would explian why for 20+ years he taught only "Kuk Sool Won" seminars in connection with their Kido Hae.
Furthermore, GM Seo received his black belt from GM Choi. Who on this forum can say the same thing, and YOU folks are telling us that GM Seo is not Hap Ki Do???
No, what we are saying is that he got a fist dan in Hapkido from Choi, and a 4th - ? from his brother in Kuk Sool Won - which they collectively touted for two decades was not Hapkido. They even added Kuk Sool Won to the list of "31" traditional styles of martial arts governed by the Kido Hae". Seo is KSW, which according to him and his brother is an ancient art not related to Hapkido - this is their history - the history of the organization to which you belong - can you not accept the words of your teacher?

All you can say is that you got your degree from someone who claims to have received it from GM Choi. Well, for my part, I train with a man who is only one of three to receive a ninth dan from Choi.

To say GM Seo is NOT Hap Ki Do is to say that GM Kimm He Young is not Hap Ki Do. If he is NOT Hap Ki Do by your standards, why is it that most Hap Ki Do people refer to his tome as the “Bible” of Hap Ki Do???
Dead wrong - his advertisments refer to it as the "Bible" of Hapkido - not "most Hapkido people".

I’ll bet that a copy of his book is on your bookshelf... blasphemy! Again, speaking only for me, I don't and wouldn't - he's not Hapkido - he's Hanmudo or something right? So why would I want his book?

What makes you folks the “authority” on who is or who is NOT Hap Ki Do???? No one said we were, but why do YOU keep referring to an organization run by a KSW master as a Hapkido one when KSW itself says it is not Hapkido?
You can’t even come to an agreement on WHAT is Hap Ki Do, and what techniques are or are NOT included and what to call them. I say it is a bit premature for you to think of yourselves as the “keepers” of the art.

Frankly, you do this all the time...who said anything about "keepers" - but now that you mention it some of us come from legitimate Hapkido backgrounds and are amazed that groups want to call themselves Hapkido after, what for some, is 20 years of saying they are not - even more amazing is the westerners that cannot accept that their instructors do/didn't want to be recognized as Hapkido and went their own way - but the westerners want it both ways. I may not be a "keeper" of the Choi lineage - but I am a staunch guardian.

What is that I read a few posts ago... Harmony and Unity???? Great, harmony and unity, but without proper lineage and rank, not Hapkido.

Hello all,
This goes back to how ANY instructors align themselves and what ANY student does to agree or not with this alignment. If you spend decades defending a phony history, created to fool westernes into following a self-made grandmaster, while denying any link to Hapkido, why would anyone, or frankly why should anyone believe the "we were just foolin', cause we've been Hapkido all along, see, just ignore the man behind the curtain". Right.

 

[American HKD]

Profile of the Grand Master In Sun Seo



Grandmaster In Sun Seo has been involved in martial arts since the 1950's and is currently one of the most respected Korean martial artist and a true pioneer representing the first generation of Korean martial artists.

Grandmaster Seo is the only first generation martial artist to teach and operate a dojang in Korea continuously for the last 40 years. He is the epitome of a true martial artist who combines his technical skills with great wisdom to tirelessly serve the growing martial arts community of Korea as well as the rest of the world. Grandmaster's Profile:

<LI>1958 Receives 1st Dan in Hapkido(From Teacher Choi Yong Sul)
<LI>1961 3rd Dan in Hapkido
<LI>1965 Korea Kuk Sool Won Instructor
<LI>1966 Korea Kuk Sool Won's Pusan Area Master
<LI>1967 Korea KIDO Association Representative
<LI>1968 First in Korea to demonstrate with "Jin Gum"("real" or "actual" sword)
<LI>1969 Korea Kuk Sool Won Chiefmaster
<LI>1970 Appointed Pusan Central Police Force's Martial Arts Instructor (First in Korea to be appointed such)
<LI>1974 First Martial Artist to appear and demonstrate on Korean TV show "Moe Ki Da Hang Jin"(Talent Show)
<LI>1974-Present Hosted two Martial Arts Championship-Exhibitions each year. GM has held the most martial arts events in Korea.
<LI>1975 First Martial Artist on KBS TV "Bi Mir Ea Moon"(Secret Door)
<LI>1976 First Martial Artist on TBC TV "Game Show"
<LI>1977 Selected as the Martial Arts Director/Participant for Government funded Documentary on Korean Martial Arts "Ho Kuk Moo Yea"(Fifty of GM's students also appeared on the documentary).
<LI>1978 Selected to head a Martial Arts Team to represent Korea at the 75th Anniversary of Korean Immigration to Hawaii. First ever to be appointed martial arts team leader in an official government sponsored trip.
<LI>1978 Appointed as Martial Arts Instructor for CIC (Korea's equivalent of CIA)
<LI>1978 Published the official textbook for Korea Kuk Sool Won
<LI>1983 Elected President of Korea KIDO Association (first martial artist to serve as president) and has been serving for the longest duration in history.
<LI>1983 Published the 2nd Edition of Kuk Sool Textbook
<LI>1984-2001 Korea President's Secret Service Agency's Testing Committee Head
<LI>1986 Published the 3rd Edition of Kuk Sool Textbook
<LI>1986 Established KIDO HQ in USA
<LI>1989 Published the 4th Edition of Kuk Sool Textbook
<LI>1990 World KIDO Federation established in Fremont, CA
<LI>1992 Published the 5th Edition of Kuk Sool Textbook
<LI>1996 Published the 6th Edition of Kuk Sool Textbook
<LI>1998 Published the 1st Edition of KIDO Textbook/Album
<LI>1983-2002 President Chairman of Korea Kido Association
<LI>1990-Present GM has given over 200 martial arts seminars throughout the world and has received numerous commendations and awards from different cities he has visited.
<LI>2003 Founded Han Min Jok Hapkido Association receives Korean government recognition for the new organization.

As of present time, Grandmaster In Sun Seo has certified 270,000 Black Belts and he serves as President/Chairman of World KIDO Federation, Han Min Jok Hapkido Association and Korea Kuk Sool Association. GM Seo continues to travel the world to teach and share his martial arts knowledge and skills.
​

It seems that all Master Seo's work and promotion has been in Kuk Sool not Hapkido, but at least he gives credit to Choi Yong Sool unlike JBL. ​

​

​

 

[shesulsa]

...but at least he gives credit to Choi Yong Sool unlike JBL.

On what do you base this statement? Could you cite your source, please?

 

[American HKD]

On what do you base this statement? Could you cite your source, please?

read the bio 1st line

1958 Receives 1st Dan in Hapkido(From Teacher Choi Yong Sul)

 

[shesulsa]

LOL - we clearly have a failure to communicate!

You said JBL does not claim lineage to Choi - on what do you base THAT statement?

thanks

 

[shesulsa]

... gives credit to Choi Yong Sool unlike JBL.

This part of the last sentence of your post infers JBL does not give credit to Choi Yong Sool.

I refer you to this page, 20th paragraph which begins "The National Unified Korean Martial Arts Exposition was held on May 27, 1968..." and ends "At this time, Grandmaster Choi also conferred to our founder Dr. Joo-Bang Lee and Han-Jae Ji the rank of 8th Dan Degree Black Belt Grandmaster, the highest position in Hapkido in 1968."

I have also seen the credit listed in his textbook for HRD students.

I must also say, however, that on the same page, further down, he does claim to have released his ties with Hapkido.

 

[American HKD]

1

 

[American HKD]

This part of the last sentence of your post infers JBL does not give credit to Choi Yong Sool.

I refer you to this page, 20th paragraph which begins "The National Unified Korean Martial Arts Exposition was held on May 27, 1968..." and ends "At this time, Grandmaster Choi also conferred to our founder Dr. Joo-Bang Lee and Han-Jae Ji the rank of 8th Dan Degree Black Belt Grandmaster, the highest position in Hapkido in 1968."

I have also seen the credit listed in his textbook for HRD students.

I must also say, however, that on the same page, further down, he does claim to have released his ties with Hapkido.

JBL recieved the 8th for unification purposes (political reasons) he admits. What accounts of him training with Choi are there I don't know of any.

Does he have a 1st through 7th Dan in HKD from Choi or Ji or anybody he only claims Suham Dosa taught him and his brother ALL THERE SKILLS not Choi (see the same article near the top ) Fact or Fiction?

During their mountain training with Suahm Dosa, Dr. Joo-Bang Lee and his brother did not learn from a Belt by Belt syllabus. They were taught all the skills of the combat system without any ranking system. So our Founder created and divided all of the skills that he had learned, into his Hwarang Do® syllabus for the public. So this martial art name Hwa Rang Do® contains his ancient Hwarang combat skills and his human morality philosophies.

 

[glad2bhere]

You know, I really can't believe you folks are taking this posture.

What is it that you are doing in 2004 that the people you are identifying didn't do back in '94, '84, '74 and '64. Am I to understand that YOUR views are somehow more "pure", of greater nobility or of loftier intent? And just where has Hapkido benefitted from all of this " us and them" attitude in the Hapkido arts? Its gone on for 50 years now, folks. Tell me where we are any better now than before? Tell how what you are offering is any better than what was offered before-- just by different people? If you would just take a page from any other effort that seeks to elevate one group of people above another, or divide some folks from other folks you would see that what you are doing is going to fail just like every other effort along these lines has failed.

Earlier I mentioned that maybe we all share a commonality in Yong Sul Choi but apparently nobody wants to hear that because noone picked-up on it. Earlier yet I mentioned that we all share a source in Korean martial traditions and I guess nobody wants to run with that either. Before that I sought to have people help me identify what techniques and theories we share and that effort is turning cold. Maybe someone can educate an old man regarding what the vested interest is in keeping the Hapkido arts split-up and fighting among themselves? I would really like one of you "Champions of Hapkido Purity" to come out of the closet and fess-up to what the motives are for trying to make Hapkido some sort of elite or exclusive group. Maybe someone can tell me--- Whats the pay-off? How about it?

Best Wishes,

Bruce