Towards a Minimum Hapkido Standard

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

I really wish you would stop this. You have been around the KMA long enough to know that with a bit of digging you can cast aspersions on ANYONES' background. OK--- so from one point of view Mr XYZ has some rank he doesn't merit. So what? I remember JR West commenting on how he got his upper dan ranks, but of course the difference was that he has always kept such things well in perspective. And what about Mr. ABC and comparing his rank to Mr XYZ and finding one of the two falling short--- depending on how you view things. And shall we start now to talk about who is MORE closely relatesd to the Choi tradition? You KNOW thats what is going to come next. I KNOW you do. It NEVER stops with just comparisons. Someone ALWAYS has to be on top and someone on the bottom and NOONE ever wants to be on the bottom. I would bet dollars against domuts that this is the sort of thing that keeps people from working together in the first place. Nobody I know wants to get involved in this sort of thing.

Now you originally said you wanted to start some sort of registry. Do you really think people are going to participate when they see how you are dealing with things solely in the abstract? Who wants to trust a person with such judgemental predispositions with valuable personal information, especially if they can fairly expect to be judged and found lacking. Don't tell me you haven't thought of this--- or have you? FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

So, the story so far is that Lee, Joo Bang claims he founded the name Hapkido, and that Choi gave him and 8th dan in 1968 - despite the fact that he was a practitioner of another art taught by the enigmatic Sauhm Dosa (an awesome art that was ONLY taught to Lee and his borther) -

Then, after all the "struggle" to develop Hapkido he just decides to go visit the mystery monk and gets permission to teach Hwa rang do - although from that article, he was already doing it without such permission.

So, Lee quits Hapkido for good, saying the quality is bad and (continues) teaches HRD.

1) I haven't met anyone that was in Korea in 1968 that remembers these events - including then students of Choi.

2) Choi's activity was ALWAYS centered around Taegu - not Seoul -

3) Very few 8th dans were ever conferred by Choi, I have only ever heard of 2 that can be verified with paper - there are undoubtedly more, but 8th dan was a rare duck for Choi to promote to - much more frequently, 3rd or 6th.

4) Lee claims to release this information for everyone to know "the truth" - well if the art he is teaching is some super old Korean are that only he knows, why does he even care about Hapkido? Why accept rank from such a common art when he has the well spring of Sauhm Dosa at his EXCLUSIVE disposal?

Frankly, I was waiting to turn the page to see if he also founded Taekwondo and the cure for the common cold. My advise to anyone reading that page is not to do it while drinking, the outburst of fluid from laughing might screw up your keyboard.

 

[iron_ox]

. Maybe someone can educate an old man regarding what the vested interest is in keeping the Hapkido arts split-up and fighting among themselves?

What Hapkido arts? We are talking about the Choi/Ji lineage-just Hapkido - those who are not of that ilk can go on with their own business - why do you keep trying to include those not interested in this process - e.g. KSW and HRD to name just two.?

I would really like one of you "Champions of Hapkido Purity" to come out of the closet and fess-up to what the motives are for trying to make Hapkido some sort of elite or exclusive group. Maybe someone can tell me--- Whats the pay-off? How about it?

Who said anything about being exclusive - why is it so bad to just let go? We are now letting go, of all those that want to go their own way - they can have their own fun and train in whatever they want. Stop playing the PC game, climb down off the fence and see that all these groups want to go off on their own - so let them. And as for the groups that want to use the name Hapkido, cool, as long as they have the validity to back it up...

 

[American HKD]

Dear Stuart:

I really wish you would stop this. You have been around the KMA long enough to know that with a bit of digging you can cast aspersions on ANYONES' background. OK--- so from one point of view Mr XYZ has some rank he doesn't merit. So what? I remember JR West commenting on how he got his upper dan ranks, but of course the difference was that he has always kept such things well in perspective. And what about Mr. ABC and comparing his rank to Mr XYZ and finding one of the two falling short--- depending on how you view things. And shall we start now to talk about who is MORE closely relatesd to the Choi tradition? You KNOW thats what is going to come next. I KNOW you do. It NEVER stops with just comparisons. Someone ALWAYS has to be on top and someone on the bottom and NOONE ever wants to be on the bottom. I would bet dollars against domuts that this is the sort of thing that keeps people from working together in the first place. Nobody I know wants to get involved in this sort of thing.

Now you originally said you wanted to start some sort of registry. Do you really think people are going to participate when they see how you are dealing with things solely in the abstract? Who wants to trust a person with such judgemental predispositions with valuable personal information, especially if they can fairly expect to be judged and found lacking. Don't tell me you haven't thought of this--- or have you? FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Sorry your right I got carried away. My appologies to all.

 

[shesulsa]

I thought we had reached a point of calm discussion, we really don't need to argue again, gentlemen.

I'll say this, then no more so I may moderate rather than participate any further.

The history of JBL beyond how it relates to Hapkido is for another thread, but I find it curious that if this degree was bestowed upon him by another Korean, that you might find questionable his abilities to perform. The reason why I think this is relevant to the discussion at hand, which is a Hapkido Standard is this: Who, tell me who, is REALLY authorized to qualify a rank bestowed upon another person but the person who bestowed the rank, regardless of your opinion of ability or validity? A group of Americans who have made certain derisions from the history they have been told, read, and researched, then picked the one they like? This sounds an awful lot like interpreting the Bible, really - anyone can justify anything using a line or two from the Bible. It would be just as simple to say, "So-and-so is NOT a member of our organization, therefore his rank is not recognized and we cannot recommend you study with him," yet So-and-so could be a very talented individual with lots of knowledge and training who desires no affiliation with any governing body.

And I must agree that 'pedigrees' will always be doubtful no matter who bestows them - there will always be warring parties and argumentative organizations who attempt to oust or defy another's sanctity or rank. *YAWN*

I don't think the best interests of the future of Korean Martial Arts in America are served by drawing a line in the sand, if you will.

I've decided that I'd really much rather be training.

Thanks.

 

[iron_ox]

Dear Stuart:

I really wish you would stop this. You have been around the KMA long enough to know that with a bit of digging you can cast aspersions on ANYONES' background. OK--- so from one point of view Mr XYZ has some rank he doesn't merit. So what? I remember JR West commenting on how he got his upper dan ranks, but of course the difference was that he has always kept such things well in perspective. And what about Mr. ABC and comparing his rank to Mr XYZ and finding one of the two falling short--- depending on how you view things. And shall we start now to talk about who is MORE closely relatesd to the Choi tradition? You KNOW thats what is going to come next. I KNOW you do. It NEVER stops with just comparisons. Someone ALWAYS has to be on top and someone on the bottom and NOONE ever wants to be on the bottom. I would bet dollars against domuts that this is the sort of thing that keeps people from working together in the first place. Nobody I know wants to get involved in this sort of thing.

Now you originally said you wanted to start some sort of registry. Do you really think people are going to participate when they see how you are dealing with things solely in the abstract? Who wants to trust a person with such judgemental predispositions with valuable personal information, especially if they can fairly expect to be judged and found lacking. Don't tell me you haven't thought of this--- or have you? FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Hello all,

I really missed the underlying message in this post until I read it a few more times - what I get now is "Don't try and compile a list of real Hapkidoin from the Choi/Ji lineage - because LOTS of people will be left off that do other KMA's".

And you are right, we should not be judgemental - not at all, right? So what about rank or training, if they are older and Korean (for example), they must have a high rank and be telling the absolute truth as to their training. Just accept what is given to you (gosh, sounds like what you have been advocating we reject) and have no worries, it is not as simple as it seems, rank and training mean nothing, and this red kool-aid will help bring it all together.

Sorry for the sarcasm, but I think a list would be fun and productive - relax Bruce, it may not be as hard as you think.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear kevin:

".....Who said anything about being exclusive - why is it so bad to just let go? We are now letting go, of all those that want to go their own way - they can have their own fun and train in whatever they want. Stop playing the PC game, climb down off the fence and see that all these groups want to go off on their own - so let them. And as for the groups that want to use the name Hapkido, cool, as long as they have the validity to back it up......"

Perhaps you believe you are doing the right thing, but history proves you wrong--- and you just did it again. "....And as for the groups that want to use the name Hapkido, cool, as long as they have the validity to back it up...."

And what about the people who "don't" have "validity". And who judges whether a person is "valid" or not. The minute you start identifying "insiders" and "out-siders" you have gone right back to what people were doing in the last four decades. It does not matter how noble your intentions are, or how pure your motives are----- you are right back to repeating the cycle. The only way to break the cycle is to do something fundamentally different. I say that you need to teach people what you know rather than assigning some special status to it first. On this point you can't accuse me of being "PC" ( :ultracool ) because I can tell you that our culture is hell-&-gone from making a place for acceptance and tolerance. But if we actually could keep our identity and still make room for people who are not identical to us would this not be a good skill to teach the next generation? What do you think --- Dedication to what WE believe and --- simultaneously--- Acceptance of what OTHER PEOPLE believe? Not a bad view, yes?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[iron_ox]

The history of JBL beyond how it relates to Hapkido is for another thread, but I find it curious that if this degree was bestowed upon him by another Korean, that you might find questionable his abilities to perform.
Who said ANYTHING about his abilities - somebody always does this in the middle of a discussion of rank and lineage - I don't think that the abilities of Lee, Joo Bang have ever entered into this discussion - I think your off base here.

The reason why I think this is relevant to the discussion at hand, which is a Hapkido Standard is this: Who, tell me who, is REALLY authorized to qualify a rank bestowed upon another person but the person who bestowed the rank, regardless of your opinion of ability or validity? A group of Americans who have made certain derisions from the history they have been told, read, and researched, then picked the one they like?

Sorry here, but look at it from the other perspective - despite a lack of evidence, we are to accept a version of "the truth". Choi died in 1986 - not really like "the Bible" if you ask me - still lots of eye-witness accounts around to verify statements made.

This sounds an awful lot like interpreting the Bible, really - anyone can justify anything using a line or two from the Bible. It would be just as simple to say, "So-and-so is NOT a member of our organization, therefore his rank is not recognized and we cannot recommend you study with him," yet So-and-so could be a very talented individual with lots of knowledge and training who desires no affiliation with any governing body. I haven't seen anywhere here where it has been suggested that a legitimate teacher of Hapkido that has no large organizational affiliation be shunned.

And I must agree that 'pedigrees' will always be doubtful no matter who bestows them - there will always be warring parties and argumentative organizations who attempt to oust or defy another's sanctity or rank. *YAWN*

I believe, with all due respect that the only people who doubt lineage or try to "poo-poo" it are those that do not have it...


I don't think the best interests of the future of Korean Martial Arts in America are served by drawing a line in the sand, if you will.

I've decided that I'd really much rather be training.

Thanks.

Hello all,

Lineage discussions are not politics - oooh, bad politics. Politics are the realm of he did this and can't do a jumping 540degree back kick so I won't train with him.

Lineage, and the understanding of it, are as nesseccary to the study of martial arts as a good back fist. Without lineage, we are just learning to fight - with it, we have a rich heritage of people that have trained and dedicated their lives to the continuation and dissemination of a specific type of self-preservation. The realm of Lineage is the realm of those that wish to stand up and be counted as following the traditions set up by those before them - to live without lineage, or to discredit its importance is to train without an art.

 

[iron_ox]

And what about the people who "don't" have "validity". And who judges whether a person is "valid" or not.

Hello Bruce,

Is this so hard to fathum, if you are from the Choi/Ji line, you are doing Hapkido - if not then you are not...Don't see the complication there...

Off to the dojang, goodnight all

 

[Disco]

Without lineage, we are just learning to fight.

Interesting statement..........With or without lineage, the entire root purpose of practicing/learning "martial arts" was to learn how to fight or fight better. There was no other reason to formulate their existence. Down thru the years, people have included / piggybacked lots of other stuff to aid (their viewpoints) or to just embellish something they thought needed embellishment. In my viewpoint, this is where many people have either lost or wanted to change (for whatever reason), the true intent of what was being studied. Let me ask this question; you attend a seminar, lots of different folks you don't know. What's the first thing you do when you get on the deck/mat. You check people out on how they move and execute techniques. You then find yourself gravitating to people who you feel are your equal or better. Was background info a player at any stage of this process? NO! You reverted to the basic root of training. You accepted people at face value. After you get to know your new training partner(s), does lineage now take precedence over ability? If it does in your book, then I'm at a loss for words. Something that was stated earlier, there are more than a few that have the proper lineage paperwork but are missing/lacking the skills. Just what does that really say to validate the process of a new directory?

 

[Black Belt FC]

BRAVO Disco you tell them!!!

 

[glad2bhere]

".....Without lineage, we are just learning to fight....."

I'm sorry, but I think we are stepping across a line here. To my way of thinking being able to claim a particular connection or lineage is an "indicator" and nothing more. The degree to which one weights this indicator regarding its importance---well, you know what they say about opinions.

My earlier post spoke to this same issue one-step-farther-removed. What if we now use lineage not as an indicator, and not as a matter of quality-control but as a way of deciding who is "in" and who is "out"? Am I the only person that sees a problem with this? The Korean martial sciences have traditionally never had this position--- not until the Japanese traditions wrought their influence with the ranking and Ryu-Ha systems. Its nice to have bragging rights about being related to some particular personality, but how about we keep things in perspective, ne? FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

".....Without lineage, we are just learning to fight....."

I'm sorry, but I think we are stepping across a line here. To my way of thinking being able to claim a particular connection or lineage is an "indicator" and nothing more. The degree to which one weights this indicator regarding its importance---well, you know what they say about opinions.

My earlier post spoke to this same issue one-step-farther-removed. What if we now use lineage not as an indicator, and not as a matter of quality-control but as a way of deciding who is "in" and who is "out"? Am I the only person that sees a problem with this? The Korean martial sciences have traditionally never had this position--- not until the Japanese traditions wrought their influence with the ranking and Ryu-Ha systems. Its nice to have bragging rights about being related to some particular personality, but how about we keep things in perspective, ne? FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Bruce,

Interesting point you make but isn't lineage like your Family Tree?

People should be proud of where they came from esspecially if it's from a good home?

I think lineage should be important to a person and it's also a sign of good breeding in a sense. If your a student of a well respect MA v.s. McDojang.

What I see now and don't like is maybe were a bit immature to be able relate to each other if someone's lineage is not so well defined.

But the crux of this discussion is for the sake of what I call Traditional Hapkido, How to preserve Trad. HKD for the future when so many are desemating it into everything under the sun?

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

Absolutely!! I agree 100%. People should be proud and people need to know their lineage and draw strength from that lineage. Where I think we need to take a look is in the role that lineage plays with what we are discussing. For me, the role of lineage is VERY important, but it is not a controlling factor in making determinations. Its is an indicator of a direction not a law or a rule. Now in the Japanese traditions I think I am safe in saying that lineage in a typical Ryu has a kind of controlling influence, often deciding who is "in" and who is "out". This gets moderated to some extent by the use of "ha" or "branches" of the Ryu and this might well be how one carefully introduces variance--- but thats for another discussion. In my own experience I have had people give me information about themselves for my Hapkido tree which is at odds with what other people say ABOUT that same person. What is to be done then? So, if someone comes to me and says that they are a member of the Myung lineage thats fine but it does not immediately give them any special leverage with me one way or another. Its just one more qualifier thrown into the pot on the way to validating what they do. Make sense?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Ok then back to square one.

Is a Hapkido database with lineage, rank, teacher, and proof of it a good idea that will help the HKD community in keeping things straight?

 

[glad2bhere]

In a word "yes", but IMHO this depends on whether the emphasis in your statement is on the words "help" and "a good idea" or on the words
"keep things straight". People can always use more "help" and can always use more "good ideas". What we don't need is more things to "keep" stuff one way or another. Make sense?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[iron_ox]

Hello Stuart,

It might help in general, but I doubt it would help many of the routine posters on this board, who seem content to judge Hapkido as a group of techniques, or how well someone throws a front kick, applies a wrist lock, or moves in a circle. This is the type of attitude the frauds love would love - praying on people because they have a few clever moves and a dynamic personality. When someone who is a fraud reads this, they know that because "no-one" really cares about where they trained or under whom, they can slip in and out of places teaching nonsense. I've met lots of physically talented martial artists - guys that could train for hours because of conditioning, and had a beutiful array of simple techniques, heck one was only 21 and already a fifth dan in "Hapkido". Frankly, the depth of his technique was non-existant, as was his lineage.

Those that want to assume that fancy technique, or "come onto my mat" mentality means they are training in Hapkido, well, yeah they probably have "dark places" - like the space in their wallets where money was that has now gone to some poser clown for a worthless grade and fancy and equally worthless wallpaper.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

Now, see? I have to agree with Kevin, but its from the OTHER side of the coin. Just like I told you that I don't want to be "controlled" by lineage, Kevin is exactly right that you cannot dismiss it altogether either. There are folks whose "lineage" is that they "have no lineage". They wear the fact that they are "eclectic" in their approach and draw their material from just about anywhere it suits them. I remember one exchange with Don Burns (USHF) down in Indiana where he told me that Hapkido is "anything that works". For me this is going too far the other way. Now, I admit that there is some subjectivity here. By this I mean, for instance, that though the Yon Mu Kwan takes a Mu-Do approach to Hapkido, I would bet that my teacher GM Myung probably gets a bit tiffed with me taking that Mu-do as far into the Ship Pal Gi as I have. And you and I BOTH know that Kevin will throw a hearty "amen" in there, too! ( Kevin? Yes?). However, I take my Yon Mu Kwan membership very seriously and strive to delve deeper into the arts as I do. I think the pivotal point is how to deal with people ("not us") who represent themselves as Hapkido practitioners but whose positions are not the same as our own. After almost 20 years I am still hammering this out. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Dear Stuart:

Now, see? I have to agree with Kevin, but its from the OTHER side of the coin. Just like I told you that I don't want to be "controlled" by lineage, Kevin is exactly right that you cannot dismiss it altogether either. There are folks whose "lineage" is that they "have no lineage". They wear the fact that they are "eclectic" in their approach and draw their material from just about anywhere it suits them. I remember one exchange with Don Burns (USHF) down in Indiana where he told me that Hapkido is "anything that works". For me this is going too far the other way. Now, I admit that there is some subjectivity here. By this I mean, for instance, that though the Yon Mu Kwan takes a Mu-Do approach to Hapkido, I would bet that my teacher GM Myung probably gets a bit tiffed with me taking that Mu-do as far into the Ship Pal Gi as I have. And you and I BOTH know that Kevin will throw a hearty "amen" in there, too! ( Kevin? Yes?). However, I take my Yon Mu Kwan membership very seriously and strive to delve deeper into the arts as I do. I think the pivotal point is how to deal with people ("not us") who represent themselves as Hapkido practitioners but whose positions are not the same as our own. After almost 20 years I am still hammering this out. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Bruce,

I only thing I can say is to do the Database if the shoe fits wear it, if not that's Ok.

If there's people who want help in that area maybe we can help them.

 

[Disco]

I understand where Kevin is coming from and actually a small part of my mindset agrees and is envious of this positioning. It is nice to "have family" so to speak. But to digress for a moment and focus on something else Kevin stated, "the depth of his technique was non-existant". Perhaps this is the salient point of contention that actually seperates most people. Just what is the "Depth of Technique" equation and is it actually relevant to what is being formulated?