Towards a Minimum Hapkido Standard

[American HKD]

So now you and I agree that there will be an Inside Sickle Kick and an Outside Sickle Kick. Do we then transliterate "sickle kick" into Korean or do we work to find a common Korean term for each technique and simply equate the two (IE. American "sickle kick" = Korean "round kick")?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

I perfer to only use the English and our transliterate our term to Korean.

 

[glad2bhere]

I thought it was interesting that someone on another net is asking about whether he is learning authentic Hapkido. Didn't specify any particular style or kwan, but just wanted to know if what he was learning was authentic.

What do you think? Do you think a minimal standard (which is to say) a common "Hapkido language" would have helped in this case? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Paul B]

What do you think? Do you think a minimal standard (which is to say) a common "Hapkido language" would have helped in this case

Hi Bruce,

I think with all the ummm....liberal use of the term Hapkido,this type of minimal standard would at least give a newbie good questions to ask,and then make an informed decision. Rather than just taking Mst. So&So's word for it. Then again,some people don't care,they are happy learning whatever's thrown at them. I think the more websites and books that include it,the better.

 

[MDFJ]

I thought it was interesting that someone on another net is asking about whether he is learning authentic Hapkido. Didn't specify any particular style or kwan, but just wanted to know if what he was learning was authentic.

What do you think? Do you think a minimal standard (which is to say) a common "Hapkido language" would have helped in this case? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

I think it would have helped indeed, because the answer to the question of "authenticity" would have depended on who was being asked the question...

Wish you well in your continued endeavour...

Best Regards

Marc

 

[glad2bhere]

OK, but this raises an intersting question regarding usage.

a.) Does Mr. Student use a MS to say "I understand that at a basic level ANY Hapkido would expect me to know X...., Y....., and Z..... I don't see us learning this and wonder when this will happen"?

or

b.) Does Mr. Teacher use a MS to say "I understand that you want to learn Hapkido. At the most basic level everyone I know who trains in Hapkido needs to develop at least these skills. Are you game?"

or

c.) Does Mr Teacher use the MS to say "I teach Hapkido here but not all of what you might find in a full-blown Hapkido school. Here are the most basic skills and of these, I teach this and this and this."

or

d.) Does Mr. Student use a MS to say "I understand that at a basic level ANY Hapkido would expect me to know X...., Y....., and Z..... I am real excited to do this technique and this technique but am not interested in learning this over here. Do I really have to know ALL of this plus others?"

Thoughts? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[iron_ox]

I thought it was interesting that someone on another net is asking about whether he is learning authentic Hapkido. Didn't specify any particular style or kwan, but just wanted to know if what he was learning was authentic.

What do you think? Do you think a minimal standard (which is to say) a common "Hapkido language" would have helped in this case? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Hello Bruce,

Here lies a pitfall of a minimal standard if all it is is a list of techniques - without lieage or history, anyone can say they "do that stuff" therfore I am Hapkido".

Hapkido (as you know all too well) is no just a list of techniques, but a philosophy of application and training. I hope this is kept in mind while a general list is created.

Authenticity is not a question of "who" is asked - lineage and training form the cornerstone upon which Hapkido is built.

 

[iron_ox]

OK, but this raises an intersting question regarding usage.

a.) Does Mr. Student use a MS to say "I understand that at a basic level ANY Hapkido would expect me to know X...., Y....., and Z..... I don't see us learning this and wonder when this will happen"?

If he doesn't see it expected learning at the basic level, might not be a Hapkido school - time to move on. Score one for a MS.
or

b.) Does Mr. Teacher use a MS to say "I understand that you want to learn Hapkido. At the most basic level everyone I know who trains in Hapkido needs to develop at least these skills. Are you game?"

Ability to demonstrate that what is being taught is part of a more uniform understanding of Hapkido. Score two for a MS.
or

c.) Does Mr Teacher use the MS to say "I teach Hapkido here but not all of what you might find in a full-blown Hapkido school. Here are the most basic skills and of these, I teach this and this and this."

"Oops, I don't know Hapkido really, and if I pass off this stuff as Hapkido, I will be found out as a fraud." Score three for a MS.
or

d.) Does Mr. Student use a MS to say "I understand that at a basic level ANY Hapkido would expect me to know X...., Y....., and Z..... I am real excited to do this technique and this technique but am not interested in learning this over here. Do I really have to know ALL of this plus others?"

"I teach a martial art curriculum here son, that comes with an understanding that I am the instructor and you are the student - if you cannot accept what I am teaching, don't let the door hit you on the way out..." Score four for a MS.
Thoughts? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Yeah, a MS could have a few uses...

 

[American HKD]

Yeah, a MS could have a few uses...

I agree with Kevin.

Kevin I had an idea of a data base for schools and instructors but it did'nt seem to hit a chord with anyone.

If people had to prove credential on this data base that might help.

HapkidoInfo.Net has a data base but anyone can put anything on there unsubstantiated.

My idea is for a controlled data base and verifcations of claims are required.

 

[glad2bhere]

One other point that likewise comes to mind is the use of the name of the item as opposed to the action in identifying a technique. By this I mean do most people say "knifehand" ("soo do") or "knifehand striking" ("soo do chigi")? By way of extension is a Knee-strike a "strike" ("--chigi"), a "thrust" ("---Ji-ru-gi") or a "kick" ("---chagi").

I know this must seem like picking nits but if one is to stay consistent with the grappling later on we need to be consistent from the start. What makes this important is when later one begins to identify techniques of a grappling nature. For instance, is it enough to identify a technique as "outer wrist" and simply identify a given technique as representative of that sort of biomechanic? Or, do we specify that the technique is an "out-wrist-throw" meaning "not only ought a person be able to twist the wrist out, but he ought to be able to do it with enough authority to cause the partner to want to roll (and should himself be able to roll with such a technique)." Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart-the-pain-seeking-missile: :ultracool

Given the nature of Hapkido in the States do you think this is do-able? I think I understand what you are advocating, but wouldn't the result be a little like advocating "certification" or "licensure". By this I mean that your idea would probably be helpful, but I see only the authentic teachers participating and maybe even not then. I think the people with doubtful credentials would resist or avoid such a listing. Its a lot easier for folks to simply seek-out a listing on some Net that has a more lenient participation policy.

I remember once I had a thought about organizing a database of recognized folk but later changed my mind. The approach was based on the idea that people "know" who legit teachers are and those people would be somehow identified by their peers or teachers. The problem was that there was a lot of potential for hurt feelings and competition so I never did anything with it. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Dear Stuart-the-pain-seeking-missile: :ultracool

Given the nature of Hapkido in the States do you think this is do-able? I think I understand what you are advocating, but wouldn't the result be a little like advocating "certification" or "licensure". By this I mean that your idea would probably be helpful, but I see only the authentic teachers participating and maybe even not then. I think the people with doubtful credentials would resist or avoid such a listing. Its a lot easier for folks to simply seek-out a listing on some Net that has a more lenient participation policy.

I remember once I had a thought about organizing a database of recognized folk but later changed my mind. The approach was based on the idea that people "know" who legit teachers are and those people would be somehow identified by their peers or teachers. The problem was that there was a lot of potential for hurt feelings and competition so I never did anything with it. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Bruce,

Your funny, however I'm don't mind the pain I guess that's why I stuck with Hapkido all these years, but I'm starting to think the politics hurt more than the the joint locks!

The legits all know who they are but the public has no clue. Anybody can say they teach anything in this country.

Some how the "legits" have to stick together for the good HAPKIDO and of the public and potential students if not Hapkido will go futher down hill into whatever anyone want's it to be.

Many industries pull together for sweeping issues that effects all of them equally regardless of the fact they compete financially.

If Hapkidoin don't/can't band together for certain issues that's will evenually ruin the system except for a very few.

I beleive nows the time we need to do something IMHO.

I would like to start just data base who would like to help me?

 

[glad2bhere]

So how is this to be done? Certainly simple self-report is out.

1.) Does one simply take an existing roster and go down the list asking for folks so named to send documentation?

2.) Does one go to the major organizations and take their respective rosters and meld them together?

3.) Do we present a specific name to a number of recognized authorities and have them validate this person relative to their understanding or experience?

4.) Other possibilities?????

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

.......So how is this to be done? Certainly simple self-report is out.

1.) Does one simply take an existing roster and go down the list asking for folks so named to send documentation? That's one way, send out e-mails the word will get around I'm sure.

2.) Does one go to the major organizations and take their respective rosters and meld them together? Possibility

3.) Do we present a specific name to a number of recognized authorities and have them validate this person relative to their understanding or experience?

Yes maybe

4.) Other possibilities?????

Best Wishes,

Bruce..........

Bruce

As you said due the the political nature of Hapkido & MA I basically feel that if I really want it I have to do it myself or with another interested parties as a private project not sanctioned by anyone.

If someone want's to be put on you either meet the criteria set forth or not.

IMHO you should come from a Choi/Ji lineage and call what you do Hapkido.

I'm going for a Traditonal Hapkido datebase not a free for all.

As far as what should the criteria be maybe something like this.

Affiliation
Year when received each rank
Proof rank
Years in Hapkido
Teachers name
How long with teacher
Lineage
References who can validate proof training

It would be easy to see if people can't provide the info just from these few questions.

Since no association is to approve this it's up to me, us, whoever to set the standards.

 

[Master Todd Miller]

Affiliation
Year when received each rank
Proof rank
Years in Hapkido
Teachers name
How long with teacher
Lineage
References who can validate proof training

I think this is a great place to start! These qustions will answer most questions! This gives the reader the necessary info in order to choose the right Association for them!

Each group will always have different requirements, this will never change! What needs to be offered is choices! Do you want Classical Choi, Yong Sul Hapkido or do you want Ji, Han Jae Sin Moo?

There are differences but choice is what makes us free! Both have much to offer, it just depends on your perspective!

Take care

www.millersmudo.com :asian:

 

[glad2bhere]

Does there need to be a discrimination made between which teachers gave which ranks at which time?

The reason I ask is that not all people stay with the same teacher throughout their career. I think we all know that while some people stay with a single teacher and some people might have one or two teachers, the greater number of pratitioners have moved through a few teachers and maybe even a few organizations.

I like Todds' approach but maybe we need to take his questions and ask them, in turn, for each separate rank. Does this make sense?

For instance:

1st Dan:
Affiliation
Year when received rank
Proof rank
Years in Hapkido
Teachers name
How long with teacher
Lineage
References who can validate proof training

2nd Dan:
Affiliation
Year when received rank
Proof rank
Years in Hapkido
Teachers name
How long with teacher
Lineage
References who can validate proof training

3rd Dan:
Affiliation
Year when received rank
Proof rank
Years in Hapkido
Teachers name
How long with teacher
Lineage
References who can validate proof training
etc etc etc etc

Thoughts? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Does there need to be a discrimination made between which teachers gave which ranks at which time?

The reason I ask is that not all people stay with the same teacher throughout their career. I think we all know that while some people stay with a single teacher and some people might have one or two teachers, the greater number of pratitioners have moved through a few teachers and maybe even a few organizations.

I like Todds' approach but maybe we need to take his questions and ask them, in turn, for each separate rank. Does this make sense?

For instance:

1st Dan:
Affiliation
Year when received rank
Proof rank
Years in Hapkido
Teachers name
How long with teacher
Lineage
References who can validate proof training

2nd Dan:
Affiliation
Year when received rank
Proof rank
Years in Hapkido
Teachers name
How long with teacher
Lineage
References who can validate proof training

3rd Dan:
Affiliation
Year when received rank
Proof rank
Years in Hapkido
Teachers name
How long with teacher
Lineage
References who can validate proof training
etc etc etc etc

Thoughts? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Bruce

I stayed with one guy for over 12 years but if someone else changed up several times I don't care as long as they're legit Hapkido.

My main goal is to weed out Hapkido from not Hapkido. We all know some promote faster than others so that may be looked down upon by some, so up to point info is needed after that it may detract or embarass unnecessarily that's not my goal.

I want to strengten the Traditional Hapkido movement/people not divide us into micro-catagories that will lead to other problems.

Moreover does 20 years with one guy make one a good teacher? That's something a database can't say and I'm not interested in getting into.

But providing a resource of sorts may help us to some degree.

 

[American HKD]

Affiliation
Year when received each rank
Proof rank
Years in Hapkido
Teachers name
How long with teacher
Lineage
References who can validate proof training

I think this is a great place to start! These qustions will answer most questions! This gives the reader the necessary info in order to choose the right Association for them!

Each group will always have different requirements, this will never change! What needs to be offered is choices! Do you want Classical Choi, Yong Sul Hapkido or do you want Ji, Han Jae Sin Moo?

There are differences but choice is what makes us free! Both have much to offer, it just depends on your perspective!

Take care

www.millersmudo.com :asian:

Todd

I think you have the idea.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

".....My main goal is to weed out Hapkido from not Hapkido. We all know some promote faster than others so that may be looked down upon by some, so up to point info is needed after that it may detract or embarass unnecessarily that's not my goal....."

Absolutely. Needless embarrassment is not what anyone wants. Maybe what I need is a better idea of how you are moving towards your goal of discriminating between "genuine" Hapkido and that which a person has organized for themselves. How would you like these qualifications satisfied? What will you know for a fact about a given person once they have provided you with the desired material? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

........Absolutely. Needless embarrassment is not what anyone wants. Maybe what I need is a better idea of how you are moving towards your goal of discriminating between "genuine" Hapkido and that which a person has organized for themselves. How would you like these qualifications satisfied? What will you know for a fact about a given person once they have provided you with the desired material? Thoughts? ........

Bruce,

After we get the required info that's it.

We really don't know much as I said befoire we can't tell if they're good instructors, technicians, nice people, or anything.

What we do know is they completed Hapkido training with someone reputable and have legit credentials. A data base can't do anymore.

This datbase won't act as a sanctioning body but only independent
varification so to speak as to the roots of that person and rank in Hapkido anymore would be a rank validating association which we already discussed and got shot down in this forum.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

That being said, would a "family tree" of related individuals serve the same purpose, or would that tend to pidgeon-hole folks in some needless way? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce