A few clarifications to begin with....
Chris I agree that sparring is NOT the best way to train self defense. I like for my students to understand feel and get themselves used to contact but I have to instill in them that when an attack occurs the response (assuming they can't escape or de-escalate the situation) has to be dealt with swiftly and with the necessary force to get the job done so they CAN escape.
Okay. There can be some semantic arguments based on exactly what you're meaning, but nothing to get too far into here.
It is my opinion that traditional sparring is part of the reason so many western MA schools do such a poor job of teaching self defense. They introduce sparring as a touch the gloves, bow to your partner and trade blows exercise.
How is that different to non-Western martial arts schools? And who says that such forms of sparring are anything to do with self defence? The idea that "it's a martial art, it's fighting (in a form), therefore it must be about self defence" leads to many, many issues, contextually, tactically, strategically, mechanically, historically, and more....
That isn't self defense training at all.
No, it's not... and it doesn't sound like it's pretending to be. If a particular school tells you it is, it's more likely that the teacher there doesn't get the distinction, rather than there being an actual issue with the training methodology itself.
Your goal in defending yourself (mental and awareness training aside) should be to hit first with deception and how ever many times needed to escape and that's it.
No, it really shouldn't. That might be part of your tactical response (physically), if it comes to that, but even then, it's not the only, or even primary approach that should be looked for.
Sparring just isn't the best way to achieve the simulation of that.
So sparring, instilling an approach of hit first, hit hard, be aggressive, push forward isn't the best way to achieve a simulation of what you're thinking is important, namely that you should hit first, hit hard, be aggressive, and keep pushing forward (until you can escape)? Hmm...
Long post but good post and I agree!
Ha, that wasn't long.... trust me on that.
I was on E budo and found a old thread talking about old Koryu training.
http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?47543-Free-practice-in-koryu-is-it-possible While im still trying to digest that whole thing, the gist I get is this. They did spar, just not quite like we do in modern arts. Apparently free sparring was something only few were doing after like 20 years of practice.
I remember that thread... some good content, some, well, other stuff...
Look, there's a few things to look at here. Firstly, the discussion there is Koryu, and the context of Koryu is (and was) quite removed from modern self defence, so you really are looking in the wrong area. Next, it really depended on which Koryu you were talking about... it's stated quite emphatically that Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu has no free-training methods at all... nor does Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu... but Owari-Kan Ryu does, as do a number of branches of Itto Ryu, and quite a number of Jujutsu Ryu-ha.
Overall, though, it's so far removed from the context you're talking about, I wouldn't worry about it too much.
http://www.thearma.org/essays/TopMyths.htm This post also talks about old European arts used on battlefields. Here is the relevant excerpt.
"False. Modern research in historical European martial arts has revealed considerable evidence in Europe from the 12th to 17th centuries for several different forms of mock combat used as earnest self-defense training, battlefield rehearsal, ritual display, and sporting contest. From knightly tournaments to prize-playing contests to bouting a few
veneys or assaults at arms and impromptu scrimmaging, the evidence for "free play" or "playing loose" as practice-fighting is substantial. This activity involved substantial
contact, and not merely pulled blows or surface touches. Examination of the methods by which this kind of "sparring" was pursued (e.g., its equipment, its intent and purpose, its permissible techniques and safety considerations, and its risk of injury, etc.) is a main area of exploration in historical fencing studies. See:
To Spar or Not to Spar."
Again, this is so far removed from the context you're talking about that I'd leave it alone completely. You might as well as how English Long-bow Archers developed their drawing strength because you want to get a pistol.
So the question remains, how can you learn to fight with out fighting? Swing with out swimming? Sparring while not a real situation is as close as it gets. I have not yet seen any thing said here that is convincing. All I keep hearing is that sparring is not even close to real life. Yet if that is true why did so many old battlefield arts actually spar in some fashion?
Okay. This whole line of "swim without swimming" is false, you realise... not only is it an apple/orange comparison, it's historically disprovable (German physicist Theodor Kaluza, whose work is now used as part of the basis for String Theory, is said to have taught himself to swim from reading a book, successfully achieving it his first foray into the water). But, to the point, learning "how to fight" isn't actually that applicable to self defence (when all's said and done), nor is it something that requires sparring or even testing of any form. What it requires is the learning and practice of physical combative methods, tactics, and strategies. Sparring is simply one way of practicing one form of application in one type of context. That's it.
When it comes to the idea of sparring not being like real life, you've put this thread in the Self Defence section... so I'm looking at everything in that light. We'll cover more in a moment, but for now, it's important to realize that sparring is very close to real life, if your real life application is to apply it in tournaments and competitions. If your version of real life is a self defence situation or encounter, then no, it's (in many ways) the exact opposite.
Again the main issue I have is this. How can you expect to apply what your learn, to a random and or unexpected attack if you never practice against unexpected and or random attacks? It was said that sparring is not really random, that your matched based on skill and size and what not. That is true to a extent but that does not mean I will know what opening attack my opponent will throw, or what tactic he will use. I cant read his mind, he may attack with a kick or several, or a shoot or a anything. Only thing I know is that he can strike and grapple, I have no idea what is coming first next or last.
I actually asked you quite a pertinent question in this regard, namely why randomness is important (or, really, if it is at all) in your training, if you're looking at self defence. Frankly, the answer is that it's not important at all.
Sparring isn't really random. It's an attempt to apply and defend against unannounced techniques, but that's it. Sparring isn't dealing with the unexpected. It's an attempt to apply and defend against unannounced techniques. If it was really random, or unexpected, then you'd be dealing with attacks from behind, against people you didn't think were involved (or even part of the class), weapons would make sudden appearances, attackers would try to get close without you realizing they're going to attack, and more. Sparring, on the other hand, sets you up against a known opponent, with a known (restricted) skill set, in front of you, from a distance where you can see them coming, with both of you fully aware that there's going to be an engagement. That's not random or unexpected...
When it comes to the idea of not being able to read the opponents mind, and not knowing what they're going to come in with first, that's really not an issue... and, again, bears little resemblance to an actual assault/attack. That said, you can, if not read their minds, dictate to them what they're going to come in with... which is a big part of what kata impart.
Mind you, as you're trying to expect a traditional (classical) Japanese approach to martial arts to be the answers to a completely different cultural, societal, and combative context and application, perhaps something from your new art might provide some clues. There's a phrase in the Bujinkan arts (which is said to have come from Gyokko Ryu, being a saying of Hakuunsai Tozawa's) which is "Banpen Fugyo", or "many changes, no surprises". While this has many different meanings and subtleties, something that is pertinent here is that you should always keep your awareness up to the point that you don't get caught out by anything. In other words, no matter what happens, you'll be able to see it coming. The first stage to this is building an education as to what you need to be aware of... and how to manage things like distance (between yourself and potential attackers), and so on. Once you get that down, it's far harder for an attacker to get close enough to launch an attack... which will stop most. If something does come in, then you'll be in a position where you can see it before it gets too late (most assaults are done from very close range, and are a sudden single hit or barrage... which is nothing like the ranged combinations and attacks in sparring). Additionally, by training responses against a range of attacks (which are found in the kata training), the application of a response should be automatic.
When it comes down to it, in order to deal with unexpected attacks and random violence, the reality is that you need to work on awareness (to avoid being caught) rather than anything that sparring deals with. A random sequence of techniques (found in sparring) is very different to a random assault, and shouldn't be confused.
Just because Im good on pads and good with the tech sparring*partner drills in boxing that I did* does not mean ill be able to deal with a unpredictable and random attack.
You first need to understand just what a random attack is... it's nothing like sparring.
One line from the e budo thread is interesting. "Indeed, and I think he's got it right from everything I've ever seen in my budo career, I've never seen anyone with kata only experience step onto a kendo floor and win his first match, I certainly have no illusions that I could take a moderately trained kendo kid, even if I was allowed any target at all. I twitch and he hits me, simple as that, and it has happened in the deep distant past. But I've also seen that those with kata and sparring experience are much more sophisticated in their practice, a different feel to their kendo. "
Sure... and if I was entering a match fight (such as MMA, Kendo, or anything similar) sparring would be excellent preparation. But this thread is in the Self Defence section... and that has little to nothing to do with fighting, especially match fighting. And, again, the context of Kim Taylors comments are important...
I think im still leaning towards adding some other element to my own training, I just cant deny the inarguable benefits to self defense that sparring brings. I don't see how you can deny the realities of training against a unpredictable opponent, throwing random and unpredictable attacks.
There are certainly benefits, but you need to understand what they are. The context that sparring is best suited for is match fighting... and it's certainly fantastic for that... but as soon as you're looking at something different (such as self defence, as we are here), then the benefits definitely become arguable... and there is a huge disconnect in what you're calling reality.
In all of the arts that I've done or currently do, sparring is a part of it. IMO, I feel that its just one more part of the puzzle, as far as training goes. Sure, we can (and I have) do our SD techniques, in a non-static way, ensuring that it doesn't look like a sparring match, but for me, I like sparring. It's a faster pace, harder contact, and you get used to getting hit.
To be fair, Mike, "faster pace, harder contact, and you get used to getting hit"... none of that has anything to do with sparring. It may well have been that that was where those elements shone through in the schools you train/ed in, but methodologies such as the ones I use are full pace, full impact (depending on the curriculum... we don't go full contact with weapons, for example, although the attacks are still going to be, if they hit...), and you can definitely get used to getting hit!
I don't have time right now to write a full essay on the subject. Having spent a bunch of years training in an art which did not use sparring (Bujinkan Taijutsu) and a bunch of years training in arts which do use sparring (Muay Thai & BJJ among others), these are a few of my thoughts:
Sparring is a vital part of training if you want to be able to fight effectively at a high level, regardless of the context. It teaches certain skills and attributes which no other training method really does.
Large numbers of older arts would disagree with that idea, for the record...
That said, it is not the end all and be all. It has weaknesses and shortcomings, just like all training methods do, and it is important to recognize what they are so that you can make up for them in your other areas of training.
Fairly agreed... but I'd add that it's also important to realise exactly what the methodology promotes, and what it doesn't to recognise whether or not it's even a good addition in and of itself.
Sparring is not really a simulation of a self-defense situation. Certain types of sparring, if done correctly, can be a decent simulation of certain forms of fighting, which is something different.
Completely agreed.
Sparring comes in a variety of flavors. Different forms have different advantages. Some people practice sparring in a way which I consider to be downright detrimental to developing self-defense ability.
And again, agreed.
The point of sparring is learning, not winning. When students get hung up on winning rather than learning, then sparring can lose much of its benefit.
I don't know that it's actually learning that's the aim... I'd say it's more in line with development, in application of lessons.
I still stand by what I've said in my other post in this thread, as well as others through out the forum. It's one part of the puzzle but it's an important piece. No, it's not like real life, but does that mean it shouldn't be done? OTOH, I've seen some sparring sessions that are closer than what is normally seen as sparring. One of my old Kenpo instructors and I used to have some pretty hard, intense sparring sessions. It was more MMAish, but rough nonetheless. The sparring that I do in my Kyokushin dojo is pretty hard core. There are valuable things to be gained from it.
In some cases, yes, it means it shouldn't be done. The most important thing is to have a clear understanding of what the realities of sparring are in the first place... what it's going to lead you towards, and how, and whether or not that fits with your goals and aims (or the arts goals and aims, which might actually take precedence over your own).
Of course, keep in mind, working SD and doing sparring, are, IMO, 2 separate things. Sure, I've used ideas from my SD techs, during sparring, but no, I never pulled off a full tech while sparring.
There's a reason for that, of course...
If it's something that you feel is important, if it's something you like to do, then do it.
Sure... unless there are very good reasons the system doesn't do it. Which is why you need to be clear about what it is in the first place... saying "if it's something you like to do, then do it", while ostensibly good, well meaning advice, can lead to a range of real issues, such as (in this case) counter-manning the methods of the actual art/system that is trying to be learnt (or, in more extreme cases, it's the argument we hear when someone makes up their own sword "techniques", saying "hey, I just want to do it, and there's no-one around me!").
For me sparring was the proving ground of the basics. Every art has basics. Punch's blocks movement ect. Sparring was a fantastic way to train them against a random fully resisting opponent.
It's not random, and resistance is actually unrealistic. Real attacks/assaults don't really feature resistance in any major way, particularly not in any way resembling sparring/competitive training. Additionally, when talking about the art you've now started, all of that is built into the kata....
I also enjoyed it because it allowed me a good way to practice my experiments with grafting basic karate style deflections on to my mma training. I loved pulling them out during sparring. I attribute my success with using them to my instructor and the way he drilled them. Learn the movement, then get ready cause he going to hit you repeatedly and you got to use them. The defense drills were fast and hard and fun. I found my self using them in sparring instinctively very quickly.
Here's the problem. Sparring is a way to develop/emphasise personal application, it's really a way for you to do things that you think work for you... and, as such, it's fairly random in the way it develops skill. The idea of experimenting and trying things out (in this approach) typically means that you're ignoring what the actual system says you should do, in favour of your own preferences and ideas... regardless of whether or not you have any (or enough) experience to be able to tell if what the system is suggesting is valid or not... or if your idea is better, worse, or suicidal. The drills you're talking about are more in line with kata training... and, when you followed what they showed, you had success. Especially in arts like your new one, ignore what you think should be correct, and listen to the arts lessons... simply accept for a short time that whatever you've done before is different, and has no bearing on what you're doing now. Stop trying to treat them the same way, and you'll find that there's less confusion.
Victory in sparring, defined as a day I did well or didn't out right get my *** kicked, made me feel awesome. I have such confidence issues and how ever fleeting it felt good to win some times.. Though it never lasted, I just wish that feeling of I don't suck would have lasted.
Hmm, okay....
The point of all this is, that people who spar do better in a confrontation then people who don't. Here is a video of a Taijutsu practioner facing a TCMA. Its obvious who has aliveness in there training.
Why would I post that? Because, it highlights, that had he had just a little bit of sparring experience he would have faired much better. About the only thing he was able to do that whole fight was assume Jumonji no kamae and back peddle to a decision loss and a few random haymakers.
Other than a few half-hearted kamae, there was nothing Taijutsu in any of that clip. None of the movement, striking, kicking etc was from our approaches, so I'd hardly take it as an example of Taijutsu versus anything. In fact, neither of them looked to be doing anything that they were trained in... both resorted to a form of karate/kickboxing, with the CMA guy doing a few fancier kicks (but that was about it). What it showed me was that, when put in a sporting situation, both immediately went to what they unconsciously believe is "powerful" in that context... which is what they see in MMA, kickboxing etc... regardless of what they've actually done. In other words, it was like they've both done years of tenpin bowling, then end up on a badminton court trying to play volleyball (because that's what the court looks like to them). But we're going to start dealing with conscious versus unconscious beliefs, and so on, which can get a little intense pretty quickly there...
I keep coming back to sparring because of its obvious benefits of dealing with randomness.
Obvious? Nah... What you have there are assumed benefits for an assumed context, neither of which are actually realistic when it comes to self defence.
Attacks are random, you need to be able to deal with the unknown.
Actually, no. Violence can be in the form of random assaults, but that's not the same as a random sequence of attacks. Dealing with that form of "random" or "unknown" is not dealt with in sparring.
Yes I know about what skill set my sparring partner has I have no idea what is coming in what order.
Realistically, it's not important. Self defence is not about trading blows.
Its that element of the unknown that gets hammered(literally) into you.
My guys (as well as the students in our other schools in other states, from my Chief Instructor on down) know to keep their awareness up at all times... and to not let us get too close to them. That's the result of actually preparing them for genuinely random and unknown attacks.... not sparring.
There is another just as important thing. That is the adrenalin dump. Yes it is not as large as a self defense situation, it does begin to show you the effects of it. I remember it took me a few sessions to get used to the adrenalin dump. Then when I had my real life near fight, ya a real adrenalin dump hit but I was able to function through it.
The adrenaline experienced in sparring/competition is a slow-release form. There's a build up (preparatory) release, as you know that you're going to be engaging in a match fight or sparring drill, and the effects are greatly reduced (as you've missed the spike that is felt). A real assault, on the other hand, might have some pre-fight surge (with yelling, pushing, shoving etc), but it's going to hit in a sudden, large burst. There isn't the build-up, or evening out that sparring/match fighting gives you, and, as a result, it's not really much of a preparation for handling adrenaline in a real assault. There are, however, a range of training methods that specifically induce such an adrenal dump, and they are very good preparation. Not sparring, though.
I don't see how you can get that kind of thing with out sparring. NO matter how hard you do your partner kata you wont get a adrenalin dump response.
You really should train with me, then... believe me, you'll get an adrenal dump training paired kata with me.
If you are saying that use scenario sparring/ drills for aliveness and randomness training then that is exactly what I want. So far I have not seen it done, and apparently many don't.
In the Bujinkan? Depends on the instructor. For the record, though, Takagi Yoshin Ryu specifically includes it, Kukishinden Ryu gets very random in it's attacks in the later parts of it's scroll (with attacks simply listed as "The opponent strikes freely"), and there are other free-responce training methods in other ryu-ha and sections within the schools. From there, you can look at various techniques that have a similarity, and use those to create a more free-form approach. As an example, this week I am teaching a kata called Hyo Fu, which has 5 formal variations. This weeks forms involve the opponent grabbing you in order to attempt a throw, which is stopped by you applying a choke. The opponent then relieves the choke by lifting one of your arms, which provides you an opening to change your grip and throw with a sacrifice throw. One of the forms has them moving your left arm, the other has them moving your right... so, after drilling each of the versions, we began to do some more "free-responce" methods.... the opponent would catch as before, and you would apply your choke. Then, the attacker could escape to the right or left, and the defender would simply respond depending on which way the attacker moved. The idea was to move without thinking or hesitating, as that would alter the timing, and remove the success of the techniques. In this drill, the defender didn't know which way they would need to apply their defence until it happened. From there, you can add more and more "unscripted" aspects (what happens if they move before the choke is on? How about if they get in to apply a throw? What about a strike?), similar to Mike's comments earlier. There's still an attacker and a defender, but it's now far more what you're thinking is necessary. And all of this is in the Bujinkan approach.
It just makes me wonder, how many of these non competing arts students, skill sets would be so much better if they had some kind of random resistance added to there training.
As RTKDCMB asked, what makes you think it's not there already?
Paired kata can be great for a good many things but random is not one of them. They are preset techniques for a reason, that by definition precludes their being anything random in them. If their was random in them they wouldn't be preset techniques.
To be frank, that's what is referred to in the e-budo thread as the beginners/intermediate understanding of kata.... there's plenty random in them, when you get to it...
So, in the end, for me the answer is simple. When my situation permits it, im going to seek out a side training venue that will allow me a more free mode of sparring.. Not now of course, as I my life only permits one martial art while I am doing personal training for my weight loss body restructuring dream.(I wanna go from morbidly obese to ripped and cut)
So, with, what, a couple weeks training, and only a few short lessons at that, you've decided you know better than the art itself as to how to teach and impart the skills it's got to offer, as well as why it does or doesn't do things it's way, so you're going to go and do something that could easily counter-man what you're being taught? Hmm... okay....
