The Resurgence of Traditional Martial Arts in Modern Mixed Martial Arts

[Kung Fu Wang]

Fighting is pretty obvious to anyone who watches a combat sport match. Two people locking horns.

This is ancient fighting.

In Chinese

Shuai = wrestling
Chiao/Jiao = horn
Shuai Chiao = wrestle with horn

 

[drop bear]

The idea that TMAs do not produce skilled fighters because they lack public competition ignores important points.

Many TMAs were developed for real-world combat, not sport. Their techniques are often tested in sparring, drills, and scenario training, even if not in public view - especially koryū. TMAs also focus on skills like weapon defence and handling multiple attackers, which are rarely part of competitive sports.

TMAs emphasise discipline, strategy, and awareness, all essential qualities for skilled fighters. Fighters like Lyoto Machida (karate) and Ronda Rousey (judo) have shown that traditional techniques can succeed in modern competitions. TMAs are also used in military and police training.

Competition is one way to test skill, but it is not the only way. TMAs and combat sports have different goals, and skill depends on the person and their training.

Not all fights are public, and not all skill is for show. TMAs produce fighters in their own way and deserve respect for their contributions to martial arts.

In my opinion there's little "art" in the combat sport martial arts.

Let's hypothetically imagine a duel between Connor McGregor and Miyamoto Musashi. Get it?

Ok.

Do you know what scientific method is?

 

[Haruhiko]

Ok.

Do you know what scientific method is?

That's a non-sequitur but to indulge you I'll let you be condescending and pretend that I don't know what the scientific method is. What's your point?

 

[Haruhiko]

Without sparring/wrestling, how do you test/maintain your combat skill? In school, is there any class that doesn't require midterm examine and final examine?

Are you saying, "game is not competition/sport"?

Depending on the martial art there are many ways to correct a student and to receive correction from your teacher. In educational theory this is usually referred to "assessment-as".

And yes, not all games are competitive and not all competitions are games. Hence the term "play-fighting". Which is what we would be doing in your scenario.

 

[drop bear]

That's a non-sequitur but to indulge you I'll let you be condescending and pretend that I don't know what the scientific method is. What's your point?

Scientific method is about the most consistent way of determining a thing is a thing.

Competition is an experiment to determine if a hypothesis is valid. Multiple competitions are a .ore comprehensive method.It essentially uses Scientific method.

If you have another process that uses Scientific method but is not competition that would also be valid.

But saying a result might happen because we can't see it due to stories and excuses isn't as valid. And is mostly used to defend things like magic and healing crystals.

Basically a person who has never fought might be an amazing fighter. I don't know.

But if I am going to create a process where I identify amazing fighter. I will not include that person because it will create too much misinformation.

 

[Haruhiko]

View attachment 32635


Scientific method is about the most consistent way of determining a thing is a thing.

Competition is an experiment to determine if a hypothesis is valid. Multiple competitions are a .ore comprehensive method.It essentially uses Scientific method.

If you have another process that uses Scientific method but is not competition that would also be valid.

But saying a result might happen because we can't see it due to stories and excuses isn't as valid. And is mostly used to defend things like magic and healing crystals.

Basically a person who has never fought might be an amazing fighter. I don't know.

But if I am going to create a process where I identify amazing fighter. I will not include that person because it will create too much misinformation.

Your false equivalence of "competition:scientific-method" oversimplifies virtually everything I said.

You can use the Monte Carlo method to calculate hypotheticals over N iterations (usually 10,000+):

Score = Reaction Time (RT) × Accuracy (A) × Damage (D)

Where:
RT = Speed of reaction
A = Probability of landing an accurate strike
D = Lethality or impact of the strike

Random variations (±10%) are applied to simulate variability in performance.

Here's a graph I hobbled together (as an example - I didn't draw from many data points, it's just to show how this can be done):

I only processed 1000 iterations. Needless to say it respects the scientific method using data sets to model, simulate, and reproduce iterations depending on the reliability of data. The main criticism of the model is that it can draw on low populated data sets and too populated data sets, leading to dimensionality issues that require additional computing to weigh the data as significant or insignificant in the simulations. It's not conclusive, obviously, as it's a model, and the falsifiability is too high.

And that's just one method.

I don't know what to do with all this straw, man.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I think you are misunderstanding what I mean by "compete", but many TMA schools have internal competitons between students. And often schools that compete outside of their own schools ensure their competitors do this.

Sorry I do have a problem with anyone considering themselves or others "skilled" in a martial art until they've challenged themselves. And good TMA usually include this test, beyond things like rote forms and knowledge. Partners hit and grab each other, etc. In some places this is a no brainer, in some others it's foreign.

I am a TMA guy, trained a few different styles, dabbled in some non-TMA styles, but about 30 years ago (yes I'm old) in TMA I was part of a multi-style sparing group, great learning experience. Also no protective gear (yes you got hurt from time to time). But I am of the belief that if all you do is spar within your style, you could very likely have an issue sparing outside of your style.

Also about 30 years ago my shifu was looking for ways for us to spar more outside of our styles, He set up a sparing meet between our CMA school and a TKD school. We got there and the teacher of the TKD school gave us a whole lot of rules to follow. At that point I bowed out and told him I will not be sparing, he asked me why and I told him that I come in here trained in Chinese martial arts and I have learned how to spar with Chinese martial arts, and now you want me to be a TKD guy. And half the things I would do, you just told me can't" Heck it ever limited what i could do with respect to my TKD training years before

The Wing Chun school I am currently in actually does have sparing, as far as I know, it is the only one in my area that does. It is a Wing Chun school, the teacher is in a lineage, and was given permission from his teacher to teach, but it is not 100% Wing Chun, the teacher has a very strong Hung Gar background and it appears in his Wing Chun. And he has made changes to some things, also with the aproval of his Wing Chun teacher.

Many styles that depend only on form, at least in CMA, are performance styles. Even if you go to China and train Shaolin long fist, it is very likely will only be form. But many of those schools are now training Sand/Sanshou. This is not how it use to be, but training was harder in the old days. I personally have seen a lot of changes in Traditional martial arts in the last 53 years. Heck when I started as a kid, there were no pads, no head gear, no talk of a mouth guard and no mats, and it was a Japanese Jiujitsu school. And we spared every single class. My TKD school in the mid 70s has sparing, joint locks, in close fighting and takedowns. When the olympics took TKD in students asked my teacher for protective gear....his initial response was laughing and saying there is no protective gear in a fight. There always were drills, and/or forms, and sparing. But I will admit that has changed over the years. My first CMA school had sparing, see multi-style sparing group, but much of his sparing and applications, outside of that group, was sanshou. Although, surprisingly, in his Baguazhang he taught Baguazhang applications. And lastly, one of my Xingyiquan teachers, also had sparing. I once spared my teacher in that school. While sparing he said to me, "It is not sparing unless I get hit", so I hit him, twice, which then produced one of the coolest beatings I ever took, learned a lot that day too....

But admittedly these days I do believe this is seen less and less in TMA

 

[Xue Sheng]

View attachment 32635


Scientific method is about the most consistent way of determining a thing is a thing.

Competition is an experiment to determine if a hypothesis is valid. Multiple competitions are a .ore comprehensive method.It essentially uses Scientific method.

If you have another process that uses Scientific method but is not competition that would also be valid.

But saying a result might happen because we can't see it due to stories and excuses isn't as valid. And is mostly used to defend things like magic and healing crystals.

Basically a person who has never fought might be an amazing fighter. I don't know.

But if I am going to create a process where I identify amazing fighter. I will not include that person because it will create too much misinformation.

This is nice, but again where is the data, the findings to back all this up, I doubt the scientific method has anything to do with it

I don't believe it is applied in this way

The scientific method is applied by first making an observation, then asking a question about that observation, forming a hypothesis as a possible answer, making predictions based on the hypothesis, conducting an experiment to test those predictions, analyzing the data collected, and finally drawing a conclusion about whether the hypothesis was supported or refuted by the results ; this process allows for systematic investigation and testing of ideas to gain knowledge about the natural world.

I will be honest here, I believe you are more likely to be using trial and error than truly using the scientific method in MMA

Another thing to take into account, MMA (or sports based martial arts) has invented nothing, it is using thing previously found in TMA, tested by trial and error, and put them together for its needs. Even BJJ has roots in TMA; Jiujitsu > Judo > BJJ. What is done in MMA is taking everything and anything that helps one win and discarding things that do not, I am not convinced that anyone has consciously applied the "Scientific Method".

But I will say, in most cases these days, not all, MMA is more effective than TMA in a real fight. But another thing to take into account, any who do train TMA as a total martial art, are training to defend themselves against someone they never want to see again. Unlike Sports based martial arts that train to fight a guy that they may be going out to have a beer with later. Which basically means it is not likely you are going to kick the other guy in the groin (amongst other things) in the ring if you see the opportunity. .

 

[windwalker099]

The scientific method is applied by first making an observation, then asking a question about that observation, forming a hypothesis as a possible answer, making predictions based on the hypothesis, conducting an experiment to test those predictions, analyzing the data collected, and finally drawing a conclusion about whether the hypothesis was supported or refuted by the results ; this process allows for systematic investigation and testing of ideas to gain knowledge about the natural world.

100%

It is not about proving anything as some try to use it for, but about analyzing phenomena, developing hypotheses, and drawing conclusions that align with or challenge existing theories. Scientific conclusions are always open to revision based on new evidence.

But I will say, in most cases these days, not all, MMA is more effective than TMA in a real fight. But another thing to take into account, any who do train TMA as a total martial art, are training to defend themselves against someone they never want to see again. Unlike Sports based martial arts that train to fight a guy that they may be going out to have a beer with later. Which basically means it is not likely you are going to kick the other guy in the groin (amongst other things) in the ring if you see the opportunity. .

Agree

Why I ask about 'fighting' in most cases, it is something people try to avoid, understanding the potential outcomes.

On the other hand, 'testing' and 'competitions' provide a way to evaluate skill sets within the specific context in which they are being assessed. In the 1970s, CMA had a bad reputation for practitioners training in one way but not applying their skills in competitive or practical contexts.

Some of it due as in your experience to rule sets.

For example, the long arm hands of Tibetan white crane at the time, were not recognized in some of the competitive events of the day. My teachers attempted to mitigate this by introducing boxing hands, was not a fan of doing so but understood
the reasoning behind it..


In SF, outside of formal events, local gyms often conducted their own in-house testing. Or had open door days for other stylest
to come in and try their methods...Some styles associated and used among various Chinese gangs, or 'tongs,' at the time,
had a rep, for being effective street fighting styles..

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

It looks like training any martial art without competing. You hit bags, and spar, yes, but that's not all.

Example if I were to make a curriculum, and assume only one class a day. Places I've trained at normally have multiple classes per day letting people choose what they want to work on, fyi, but for an example this works better.

Mondays/thursdays you do judo, which would consist of warm up, learning what is appropriate for your level for most of the class, then randori for the last 15 minutes (4 3-minute rounds with a minute break in between). During that time you'd be encouraged to use whatever you learned in class.

Tuesdays/Fridays would be muay thai. This is a lot of padwork and sparring. The first 15-20 minutes would be the instructor going over a specific strategy, then if you're a beginner, you'd work with an experienced student or teacher to learn proper form, or if you're more experienced just getting practice and reps in.

Wednesdays/Saturdays are bjj. The instructor shows the move of the day, beginners get separated and drill basics (positional stuff, how to scape mount/sidemount/guard/etc., very basic submissions), while everyone else spends the remainder of the time doing round robin grappling.

Sundays are mixed day. This would be 2 hours. Ideally run by someone who has mma experience, or ranks in the above arts, the first hour would be spent practicing whatever the students who arrived want to work on, and the second would be mma sparring - you start at distance, do striking, and you're free to throw if you wish. After you throw someone, you're free to either back up and let them back up, strike (lightly, this is practice) on the ground while they try to recover, or follow up and get to ground grappling.

Again, the above is assuming one class a day. My experience is you'll have 2-3 classes a day, but also more off days. I can't say if it's different than how you practice, since I don't know how you train. But from my experience with hybrid art, I'd say the biggest difference is in segregating the days rather than trying to fit everything in to one class, and having specific (and different) rules for sparring depending on the class in question.

7 days a week? I’m just not able to keep that up. Good answers. Thanks.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

If you

1. test your MA skill against people from outside of your MA system, how can you hide your secret?
2. only test your MA skill within your own MA system, how do you know that your MA skill will work against people from other MA systems?
3. don't test your MA skill at all, how can you maintain your fighting ability?

Do D1 wrestlers get good at wrestling by trying out other styles? Do boxers box against other styles to find out if their boxing works?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Do you agree that we train MA so we can develop some MA skills that can deal with everybody, not just dealing with people within the same MA system?

If you

- agree, test MA skill against people from different MA systems is a must.
- don't agree, what's the value that a certain MA skill can only work in your own MA system?

When I was young, my long fist teacher didn't like that I competed in Karate tournament. I told him that I liked to test my long fist skill against Karate people (no MMA back then). One time I asked him how to deal with my Karate opponent's earth strategy. His letter said that I should pay more attention on Wude. Even today, I still don't understand what "Wude" has anything to do with "earth strategy".

Your assumption is that MA skill will only work against its own style unless it is publicly tested against others. So you lump all these arts together even though you have no evidence to support this and then say there is no evidence to support that it works. This is like chasing your tail and blaming it for running away.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I had a talk with an MMA guy who ran a gym and competed as well, as did many of his students. He was very interested in all things taijiquan, he was learnig qigong and he also trained many other srts over the years. His whole attitude was "He would train anything that will help him" He did not belittle any TMA styles, he was just looking for anything that gave him an advantage. By the way, the Qigong helped him relax and improved his breathing.

I still haven't met an MMA person that puts down TMA like we see others do online. I think any "Put down of TMA" is probably personally directed at the person and not at the system. Come into the gym like an A-hole and that's the treatment one will receive.

I think people who use their training to spar and compete have a very different perspective than those who train but don't use the techniques that they train. People who train and use what they train know the reality of things. Those who don't will often get into the drama of things.

I've wondered if you had a combat sport where the goal was to actually injure the other guy as quickly as as possible, would you see way more TMA stuff?

You actually see quite a bit of TMA now. But I don't think anything will change. You'll just have people walking away with serious injuries that won't fully heal and more deaths. Things like hitting people in the back of the head would be the norm. At the moment fighters try to end the fight as soon as they can within the rules that are giving. Take away some of those rules and you'll see fewer fighters. I just don't see many people doing a sport where the risks outweigh the benefits. Besides most of the fighters and competitors aren't even like that as people, to take things to that level.

You would have to truly find enemies to compete in something like that. Two people who don't care about the other's existence.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

No. Progress in that skill.

Competition as a development tool. Not as an end result.

That’s a sentiment I can get behind.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Do D1 wrestlers get good at wrestling by trying out other styles? Do boxers box against other styles to find out if their boxing works?

I see more collegiate wrestlers these day train against other systems and against who ever wants to wrestle. Boxers are babies, they don't like to come out of their sand box. lol.
I trained against boxers before and the first thing they always say is "No kicking." I haven't met a boxer who didn't say that, unless he was in a kung fu class. lol.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Your assumption is that MA skill will only work against its own style unless it is publicly tested against others.

I'm pretty sure that Wang isn't saying that. The reality is if you only box against boxers then your boxing becomes less effective when someone is kicking your legs, sweeping you, or throwing you. Boxers are configured for System A vs System A. So when they get into the ring with a Muay Thai fighter and the Muay Thai fighter will only kick the legs and win. The Muay Thai fighter does this because he understands that the Boxer isn't configured for System A vs System B.

If a Boxer wants to maximize his Boxing skills then System A vs System B is necessary. It doesn't mean that your boxing isn't good. It just means that it's configured for System A vs System A. Boxers understand this because every boxer I've met instantly say no to kicking. Even if I kick softly they don't want it. I don't think they are scared. I just think they don't want to be configured for System A vs System B because of a fear that it might mess them up when fighting System A vs System A.

TKD often runs into the same issue when competing against Muay Thai. They do well when it's System A vs System A but no so well when it's System B vs System B. 1095

What's that saying? Know yourself, Know your enemy.
When I train against System B. I'm actively taking an interest to know my "enemy."

 

[Badhabits]

I still haven't met an MMA person that puts down TMA like we see others do online. I think any "Put down of TMA" is probably personally directed at the person and not at the system. Come into the gym like an A-hole and that's the treatment one will receive.

I think people who use their training to spar and compete have a very different perspective than those who train but don't use the techniques that they train. People who train and use what they train know the reality of things. Those who don't will often get into the drama of things.


You actually see quite a bit of TMA now. But I don't think anything will change. You'll just have people walking away with serious injuries that won't fully heal and more deaths. Things like hitting people in the back of the head would be the norm. At the moment fighters try to end the fight as soon as they can within the rules that are giving. Take away some of those rules and you'll see fewer fighters. I just don't see many people doing a sport where the risks outweigh the benefits. Besides most of the fighters and competitors aren't even like that as people, to take things to that level.

You would have to truly find enemies to compete in something like that. Two people who don't care about the other's existence

I should rephrase it. MMA as it's trained now has pretty much proven to beat everything in a fight. When the goal is to win a fight. But if two people met up with the express intention to kill each other (no weapons allowed) would MMA as it's now practiced still be the best? Or would it benefit greatly from some more stuff from say, traditional jujitsu being brought in. There's a difference between training to beat someone and training to kill someone. I don't believe you have to be the better fighter to just flat out maim/kill someone.

 

[drop bear]

Score = Reaction Time (RT) × Accuracy (A) × Damage (D)

Where:
RT = Speed of reaction
A = Probability of landing an accurate strike
D = Lethality or impact of the strike

And you had this information on musashi who has been dead a hundred years?

 

[drop bear]

This is nice, but again where is the data, the findings to back all this up, I doubt the scientific method has anything to do with it

I don't believe it is applied in this way

The scientific method is applied by first making an observation, then asking a question about that observation, forming a hypothesis as a possible answer, making predictions based on the hypothesis, conducting an experiment to test those predictions, analyzing the data collected, and finally drawing a conclusion about whether the hypothesis was supported or refuted by the results ; this process allows for systematic investigation and testing of ideas to gain knowledge about the natural world.

I will be honest here, I believe you are more likely to be using trial and error than truly using the scientific method in MMA

Another thing to take into account, MMA (or sports based martial arts) has invented nothing, it is using thing previously found in TMA, tested by trial and error, and put them together for its needs. Even BJJ has roots in TMA; Jiujitsu > Judo > BJJ. What is done in MMA is taking everything and anything that helps one win and discarding things that do not, I am not convinced that anyone has consciously applied the "Scientific Method".

But I will say, in most cases these days, not all, MMA is more effective than TMA in a real fight. But another thing to take into account, any who do train TMA as a total martial art, are training to defend themselves against someone they never want to see again. Unlike Sports based martial arts that train to fight a guy that they may be going out to have a beer with later. Which basically means it is not likely you are going to kick the other guy in the groin (amongst other things) in the ring if you see the opportunity. .

Trial and error is kind of the scientific method anyway. Just with a few extra controls to make the experiment standard.

The issue is that it doesn't have to be a perfect science experiment to be better than demonstrations and stories.

And yes MMA still looks like traditional martial arts.

What MMA doesn't look like is the much more modern systems of theoretical martial arts.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Do D1 wrestlers get good at wrestling by trying out other styles? Do boxers box against other styles to find out if their boxing works?

I don't know about boxing, but in Chinese wrestling (SC) tournament, many Judo players and American wrestlers compete too. During 1973 SC tournament in Ohio, during the final match, my opponent was American wrestler (from Ohio state University wrestling team). Many SC guys also went to Judo tournament to test their skill. Even when I was 69, I tested my skill against 2 20 years old wrestlers in the park (they didn't challenge me. I challenged them).

One of my Judo friends in US said if I want to test my throwing skill, I should challenge the "undefeated little Lin" David C. K. Lin (my senior SC brother) in Taiwan. At least in Taiwan, SC guys and Judo guys pretty much knowing each other (there were not that many American wrestlers in Taiwan).