The Resurgence of Traditional Martial Arts in Modern Mixed Martial Arts

[Kung Fu Wang]

Fighting is pretty obvious to anyone who watches a combat sport match. Two people locking horns.

This is ancient fighting.

In Chinese

Shuai = wrestling
Chiao/Jiao = horn
Shuai Chiao = wrestle with horn

 

[drop bear]

The idea that TMAs do not produce skilled fighters because they lack public competition ignores important points.

Many TMAs were developed for real-world combat, not sport. Their techniques are often tested in sparring, drills, and scenario training, even if not in public view - especially koryū. TMAs also focus on skills like weapon defence and handling multiple attackers, which are rarely part of competitive sports.

TMAs emphasise discipline, strategy, and awareness, all essential qualities for skilled fighters. Fighters like Lyoto Machida (karate) and Ronda Rousey (judo) have shown that traditional techniques can succeed in modern competitions. TMAs are also used in military and police training.

Competition is one way to test skill, but it is not the only way. TMAs and combat sports have different goals, and skill depends on the person and their training.

Not all fights are public, and not all skill is for show. TMAs produce fighters in their own way and deserve respect for their contributions to martial arts.

In my opinion there's little "art" in the combat sport martial arts.

Let's hypothetically imagine a duel between Connor McGregor and Miyamoto Musashi. Get it?

Ok.

Do you know what scientific method is?

 

[Haruhiko]

Ok.

Do you know what scientific method is?

That's a non-sequitur but to indulge you I'll let you be condescending and pretend that I don't know what the scientific method is. What's your point?

 

[Haruhiko]

Without sparring/wrestling, how do you test/maintain your combat skill? In school, is there any class that doesn't require midterm examine and final examine?

Are you saying, "game is not competition/sport"?

Depending on the martial art there are many ways to correct a student and to receive correction from your teacher. In educational theory this is usually referred to "assessment-as".

And yes, not all games are competitive and not all competitions are games. Hence the term "play-fighting". Which is what we would be doing in your scenario.

 

[drop bear]

That's a non-sequitur but to indulge you I'll let you be condescending and pretend that I don't know what the scientific method is. What's your point?

Scientific method is about the most consistent way of determining a thing is a thing.

Competition is an experiment to determine if a hypothesis is valid. Multiple competitions are a .ore comprehensive method.It essentially uses Scientific method.

If you have another process that uses Scientific method but is not competition that would also be valid.

But saying a result might happen because we can't see it due to stories and excuses isn't as valid. And is mostly used to defend things like magic and healing crystals.

Basically a person who has never fought might be an amazing fighter. I don't know.

But if I am going to create a process where I identify amazing fighter. I will not include that person because it will create too much misinformation.

 

[Haruhiko]

View attachment 32635


Scientific method is about the most consistent way of determining a thing is a thing.

Competition is an experiment to determine if a hypothesis is valid. Multiple competitions are a .ore comprehensive method.It essentially uses Scientific method.

If you have another process that uses Scientific method but is not competition that would also be valid.

But saying a result might happen because we can't see it due to stories and excuses isn't as valid. And is mostly used to defend things like magic and healing crystals.

Basically a person who has never fought might be an amazing fighter. I don't know.

But if I am going to create a process where I identify amazing fighter. I will not include that person because it will create too much misinformation.

Your false equivalence of "competition:scientific-method" oversimplifies virtually everything I said.

You can use the Monte Carlo method to calculate hypotheticals over N iterations (usually 10,000+):

Score = Reaction Time (RT) × Accuracy (A) × Damage (D)

Where:
RT = Speed of reaction
A = Probability of landing an accurate strike
D = Lethality or impact of the strike

Random variations (±10%) are applied to simulate variability in performance.

Here's a graph I hobbled together (as an example - I didn't draw from many data points, it's just to show how this can be done):

I only processed 1000 iterations. Needless to say it respects the scientific method using data sets to model, simulate, and reproduce iterations depending on the reliability of data. The main criticism of the model is that it can draw on low populated data sets and too populated data sets, leading to dimensionality issues that require additional computing to weigh the data as significant or insignificant in the simulations. It's not conclusive, obviously, as it's a model, and the falsifiability is too high.

And that's just one method.

I don't know what to do with all this straw, man.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I think you are misunderstanding what I mean by "compete", but many TMA schools have internal competitons between students. And often schools that compete outside of their own schools ensure their competitors do this.

Sorry I do have a problem with anyone considering themselves or others "skilled" in a martial art until they've challenged themselves. And good TMA usually include this test, beyond things like rote forms and knowledge. Partners hit and grab each other, etc. In some places this is a no brainer, in some others it's foreign.

I am a TMA guy, trained a few different styles, dabbled in some non-TMA styles, but about 30 years ago (yes I'm old) in TMA I was part of a multi-style sparing group, great learning experience. Also no protective gear (yes you got hurt from time to time). But I am of the belief that if all you do is spar within your style, you could very likely have an issue sparing outside of your style.

Also about 30 years ago my shifu was looking for ways for us to spar more outside of our styles, He set up a sparing meet between our CMA school and a TKD school. We got there and the teacher of the TKD school gave us a whole lot of rules to follow. At that point I bowed out and told him I will not be sparing, he asked me why and I told him that I come in here trained in Chinese martial arts and I have learned how to spar with Chinese martial arts, and now you want me to be a TKD guy. And half the things I would do, you just told me can't" Heck it ever limited what i could do with respect to my TKD training years before

The Wing Chun school I am currently in actually does have sparing, as far as I know, it is the only one in my area that does. It is a Wing Chun school, the teacher is in a lineage, and was given permission from his teacher to teach, but it is not 100% Wing Chun, the teacher has a very strong Hung Gar background and it appears in his Wing Chun. And he has made changes to some things, also with the aproval of his Wing Chun teacher.

Many styles that depend only on form, at least in CMA, are performance styles. Even if you go to China and train Shaolin long fist, it is very likely will only be form. But many of those schools are now training Sand/Sanshou. This is not how it use to be, but training was harder in the old days. I personally have seen a lot of changes in Traditional martial arts in the last 53 years. Heck when I started as a kid, there were no pads, no head gear, no talk of a mouth guard and no mats, and it was a Japanese Jiujitsu school. And we spared every single class. My TKD school in the mid 70s has sparing, joint locks, in close fighting and takedowns. When the olympics took TKD in students asked my teacher for protective gear....his initial response was laughing and saying there is no protective gear in a fight. There always were drills, and/or forms, and sparing. But I will admit that has changed over the years. My first CMA school had sparing, see multi-style sparing group, but much of his sparing and applications, outside of that group, was sanshou. Although, surprisingly, in his Baguazhang he taught Baguazhang applications. And lastly, one of my Xingyiquan teachers, also had sparing. I once spared my teacher in that school. While sparing he said to me, "It is not sparing unless I get hit", so I hit him, twice, which then produced one of the coolest beatings I ever took, learned a lot that day too....

But admittedly these days I do believe this is seen less and less in TMA