The Resurgence of Traditional Martial Arts in Modern Mixed Martial Arts

[windwalker099]

Only Taiji defines "push away" is the winning which is neither recognized by the striking art nor recognized by the throwing art. I don't understand why Taiji as a MA system that try to isolate itself from the real world.

Don't understand it either

"If any part of the body other than the feet (e.g., hands, knees, back) touches the ground due to a throw, it is typically considered a loss for the person who fell."

Rule sets like these only serve to isolate it from real-world application.
Do you agree ?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Don't understand it either

"If any part of the body other than the feet (e.g., hands, knees, back) touches the ground due to a throw, it is typically considered a loss for the person who fell."

Rule sets like these only serve to isolate it from real-world application.
Do you agree ?

I agree that sport rule set is not good for the combat goal. This is why sport is only the path. Combat should be the goal. One should not stay in SC sport all his life. Same as one should not stay in Taiji PH all his life.

IMO, the correct path should be:

BJJ -> MMA
SC -> combat SC (Sanda) -> MMA
Taiji PH -> ???

In ACSCA, a SC guy needs to compete Sanda tournament in order to earn his 2nd degree BB.

Examples of SC guys tests their skill in Sanda:

 

[windwalker099]

Taiji PH -> ???

It's a training device, a way of testing skill sets for those within the practice,
Not a competition, although it's been turned it into one.

Maybe the reason, why it doesn't make much sense
for those looking for functional usage...

Historically, this was not the case with those training, being able to handle other arts outside of their own..
Using the unique method it was known for.

"Yang replied that there were only three kinds of people he could not defeat: men of brass, men of iron and men of wood.
Chang invited out his best bodyguard, Liu, to test Yang's skill."

 

[Haruhiko]

There is no evidence of skilled fighters.
If they do not fight somewhere that people can see it.

The idea that TMAs do not produce skilled fighters because they lack public competition ignores important points.

Many TMAs were developed for real-world combat, not sport. Their techniques are often tested in sparring, drills, and scenario training, even if not in public view - especially koryū. TMAs also focus on skills like weapon defence and handling multiple attackers, which are rarely part of competitive sports.

TMAs emphasise discipline, strategy, and awareness, all essential qualities for skilled fighters. Fighters like Lyoto Machida (karate) and Ronda Rousey (judo) have shown that traditional techniques can succeed in modern competitions. TMAs are also used in military and police training.

Competition is one way to test skill, but it is not the only way. TMAs and combat sports have different goals, and skill depends on the person and their training.

Not all fights are public, and not all skill is for show. TMAs produce fighters in their own way and deserve respect for their contributions to martial arts.

In my opinion there's little "art" in the combat sport martial arts.

Let's hypothetically imagine a duel between Connor McGregor and Miyamoto Musashi. Get it?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Many TMAs were developed for real-world combat, not sport. Their techniques are often tested in sparring, ...

But sparring is sport.

- Sparring is you test your skill in your own school.
- Sport (tournament) is you test your skill outside of your school.

 

[Haruhiko]

But sparring is sport.

- Sparring is you test your skill in your own school.
- Sport (tournament) is you test your skill outside of your school.

Controlled sparring without judgement or points or other constraints. No winners. I don't see that as a sport. In this context, definitionally I don't think anyone would consider that "sport":

An activity involving physical exertion and skill, esp. (particularly in modern use) one regulated by set rules or customs in which an individual or team competes against another or others. Frequently in plural.

Oxford English Dictionary, s.v. “sport (n.1), sense I.4.a,” December 2024, https://doi.org/10.1093/OED/7001519506.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Controlled sparring without judgement or points or other constraints. No winners. I don't see that as a sport. In this context, definitionally I don't think anyone would consider that "sport":

Is this "sport" by your definition?

 

[Haruhiko]

Is this "sport" by your definition?

It appears to be a demonstration of some sort, filmed on a potato.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It appears to be a demonstration of some sort, filmed on a potato.

It was not a demo. It was 5 rounds testing (develop, test, polish, enhance).

Here is another video. There are:

- sport rule (any 2 points besides feet touch the ground, that round is over).
- judges (classmate and teacher).
- audience (classmate).
- winning/losing with 5 rounds.

Again, is this "sport" by your definition?

 

[Haruhiko]

It was not a demo. It was 5 rounds testing (develop, test, polish, enhance).

Here is another video. There are:

- sport rule (any 2 points besides feet touch the ground, that round is over).
- judges (classmate and teacher).
- audience (classmate).
- winning/losing with 5 rounds.

Again, is this "sport" by your definition?

From those two videos alone I can't answer with any confidence. It has sporting elements like the ones you listed, but aside from that it looks like a pretty casual competition. What martial art is it? It looks like judo (certainly a sport), but I'm unsure.

Are there governing bodies or sanctions, policies and committees? Is it recognised as a sport by other sporting bodies? Does it have rank or a ladder? How does registration work? Who decides on the "rules", and why?

The videos alone don't really provide enough information.

Playing loose with definitions will let us call virtually anything a sport if we tick all the boxes, but it doesn't legitimise it as such.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

From those two videos alone I can't answer with any confidence. It has sporting elements like the ones you listed, but aside from that it looks like a pretty casual competition. What martial art is it? It looks like judo (certainly a sport), but I'm unsure.

Are there governing bodies or sanctions, policies and committees? Is it recognised as a sport by other sporting bodies?

The videos alone don't really provide enough information.

It's Chinese wrestling (Shuai Chiao or Shuai Jiao). It's recognized as sport in Chian and Taiwan.

 

[Haruhiko]

It's Chinese wrestling (Shuai Chiao). It's recognized as sport in Chian and Taiwan.

Cool. It's a sport then.

So you asked "is this traditional Chinese wrestling sport a sport"?

 

[Sammy Naur]

My experience is that while sparring and testing is necessary to any martial art, it has a diminishing return. The more you do it, the less you get in trade for the risks. Hard sparring in my 50s is something I would only do for a real purpose. In other words, I’m not gonna put myself out there with the 20 something hard chargers just to see what happens. I did that in my 20s and 30s. The difference is my grand dad can beat up your grand dad. Your grand dad uses a Walker because his back and knees are wrecked, and mine has sex 5 times a day. I know which one I’d rather be at 80.

I know you are trying to be funny, but there are plenty of people who compete and spar well past their 50s.

You still seem to be arguing that TMA is some route to immortality, and that more modern frameworks like MMA are some sort of limiting factor.

If you don't want to spar with "20 something hard chargers", are you really still doing TMA? Or just going through the motions. My point is that making age a factor doesn't really apply, plenty of those 70-80 year old TMA people never could fight. I'm sure some could, but those would only be the ones who competed or at least sparred a lot.

Again, the argument that sparring or competing (professionally or internally in a school) is somehow anathema to long term practice? That's a very negative viewpoint IMHO.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Cool. It's a sport then.

So you asked "is this traditional Chinese wrestling sport a sport"?

I thought "inside school sparring/wrestling" (that all MA schools have) is not "sport" by your definition.

Let me ask your "sport" definition by a different example.

If you get a head lock on me, you win that round. If I get a head lock on you, I win that round.

Can this be sport by using your definition (since nobody has ever defined this as sport)? In other words, if we both agree with the ruleset, we can define as many sports as we may like.

 

[Haruhiko]

I thought "inside school sparring/wrestling" (that all MA schools have)

That's simply not correct. Many martial arts don't include sparring or wrestling.

If you get a head lock on me, you win that round. If I get a head lock on you, I win that round.

Can this be sport by using your definition (since nobody has ever defined this as sport)?

That would be a game.

 

[Sammy Naur]

TMA, as I appreciate them, is all about progress. Different progress though - not to be the best fighter, it's more a personal, spiritual, and humble endeavour.

Sure, but it's not a matter of "best". Basic fighting skills are what martial arts are based on. I'm sure some TMA teach this, I know for sure MMA does. The question of the thread is what MMA has learnes from TMA. My argument is it's all the same really, but there remains a certain segment of TMA that wants to take credit when they should not. For example, every karate school that doesn't hold kumite in some form, cannot use Lyoto Machida to prove their school is worthwhile.

Come on now, by that logic any TMA or other martial art for that matter that doesn't hold competitions isn't legitimate?

Yes, any TMA or martial art calling itself that without some sort of testing framework that is objectively verifiable, is probably not legitimate.

Many TMA styles have something or other like this, but to equivalize them is not fair. For example many TMA make claims about being superior to basic arts like boxing and wrestling, but instead of those people entering boxing or wrestling matches (friendly, amateur, or pro), they make YouTube videos with titles like "X vs. Boxing" that are typically ludicrous.

It's more than a hobby, especially when we consider koryūha. I would be ignorant to call any student of those not a "skilled fighter".

Can you name a couple? I'd love to examine their backgrounds. A lot of people from ancient Japanese lineages claim to be great at martial arts and there is nothing to prove it. And this shouldn't be a problem, because there are plenty of supporting examples.

But if it's someone whose been dead for hundreds of years, I wouldn't consider that good evidence. Maybe only that a certain TMA was better once upon a time.

Combat sports simply don't allow for a lot of the techniques taught in TMA. And TMA aren't compatible with rulesets in the UFC, as they're not sports to begin with.

We're back to sport vs street which is just not true. I'll counter that almost all techniques in all TMA are allowed in full contact combat sports, and that very few are disallowed.

Judo, wrestling, boxing, Muay Thai, Sanda, all sports. That covers practically every punch, kick, elbow, knee, throw, lock, and choke. So where are all these forbidden TMA techniques?

 

[Sammy Naur]

Not arguing for or against here, but by what do you judge this.... the ring, the cage? Have you known a lot of TMA folks from different styles? If they do not compete, does not mean they are not skilled. Nor does it mean they are. It is just I am not a fan of generalizations without data backing them up.

I think you are misunderstanding what I mean by "compete", but many TMA schools have internal competitons between students. And often schools that compete outside of their own schools ensure their competitors do this.

Sorry I do have a problem with anyone considering themselves or others "skilled" in a martial art until they've challenged themselves. And good TMA usually include this test, beyond things like rote forms and knowledge. Partners hit and grab each other, etc. In some places this is a no brainer, in some others it's foreign.

 

[Sammy Naur]

There is no evidence of skilled fighters.
If they do not fight somewhere that people can see it.

This is my basic point. It's the whole Pink Unicorn theory. "It's there, YOU just can't see it!"

UFC and MMA is one place you can find TMA people with at least basic fighting skills. The converse is not necessarily true; there is an imbalance.

And modern schools are often harangued by TMA schools that claim to be better or even equivalent but produce no comparable fighters.

And then the argument gets turned to "well define fighting". Fighting is pretty obvious to anyone who watches a combat sport match. Two people locking horns.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Many martial arts don't include sparring or wrestling.

That would be a game.

Without sparring/wrestling, how do you test/maintain your combat skill? In school, is there any class that doesn't require midterm examine and final examine?

Are you saying, "game is not competition/sport"?

 

[Sammy Naur]

what is a fight?

The context of all of this is hand to hand combat, either empty handed or with a weapon.

It's definitely not a Pink Unicorn fallacy, which seems to be the problem here. We are supposed to trust that certain TMA schools can still produce skilled fighter even though they never have, or if they did once they are long deceased.

Meanwhile, modern schools seem to have no problem producing skilled people, regardless of ruleset.

And again by "modern" that doesn't preclude TMA as a whole. Plenty of TMA train alive. But plenty all train dead. MMA happens to be a place that has learned a lot from TMA, and even led to a resurgence in alive TMA training, which is a great thing.

The best examples of good TMA will continue to be combat sports competitors. There are so many out there.