The real answer to getting rid of illegal aliens

[Bill Mattocks]

So your proposition is to put the immigrant workers desires first, rather then the employers. I see where you are going with this.

My desire is to secure the border.

You mean the mechanics, roofers, construction workers, plumbers, landscapers (not mere lawn cutters), business owners, etc. Those "unskilled" laborers.

Yep.

I see that you're from Michigan. Perhaps you should get out more. Illegal immigrants do more than pick fruit.

I'm not from Michigan. I just live here now. Like I lived in New Mexico for several years, Illinois growing up, Colorado for decades, Nebraska, North Carolina, Wisconsin, and California.

I thought you knew my kind.

There is a difference between making individual citizens, as meant in the quote above, and letting people come here as suits there convienence for monetary profit.

No there isn't.

See above. It's not about denying everyone citizenship. No one has ever made that point. But I don't have a problem with having criteria. Apparently you have none.

Law-abiding and want to live here. That's good enough.

And this is my other problem. What you are now arguing is a essentially a new slave class. At the very least, you are arguing for a legal caste system.

Is that worse that illegal aliens hiding from the ICE and working in subhuman conditions? I don't see how.

Yes, they will be. From where will they get their health insurance? From government subsidies. Hence, they will continue to be a drag on society. What services will they receive that they could actually pay for, given that you are also making the suggestion of a "non-citizen" low wage.

We'll know how much they cost us and can make adjustments. The very poor also will be getting free health care, thanks to Obamacare, remember? Right now, we just can't estimate the price, because we don't know how many of them there are.

Even if we accept that prices will rise, people will only pay so much for a given product. Do you really think that people will pay $8 for a head of lettuce, regardless of whether that lettuce is picked by a legal worker or immigrant. I posit to you that some prices will still be acceptable on an individual basis, but the composite effect would be devastating. Are you trying to destroy the U.S., or solve the problem.

Then you prefer things to remain as they are.

Yes, if you believe that the sole problem is merely people coming to this country illegally. But that is not the sole problem. It is the underlying root cause of the many other problems which are what really concern people.

The sole problem that concerns me is securing our borders; which is what the people who seem to hate the ideal of legalizing illegal aliens also claim to want - except they don't.

No one says, "Oh, we just shouldn't have illegal immigrants here just because they are illegal." The complaint is the effect that those illegal immigrants are having. And that, you have not solved.

Yes they do. They say it all the time. They claim they would love them some Mexicans long time if only they'd stand in line and come in legally. They only hate them for being illegal, they claim.

No, you didn't, because you haven't actually given a way for people to pay for those services. In fact, your suggestion makes the problem worse. Under your "solution", those who are now illegal and made citizens would have access to services which they don't currently have. And yet, they would still have no way to pay for them. Most would not even make enough to be taxed, especially if we implement your "solution" of a "non-citizen low wage". Hence, they would get more services, but still don't pay anything commesurate into the system.

It has been said in this they cost us billions in services. How do they cost us billions in services they don't have access to? Either they do or they don't. Can't have it both ways.

Your solution also supposes that if they were allowed to get taxable jobs, that somehow that would create those jobs for them to get. How many gardeners do we need? Now many fruit pickers do we need? We're somehow going to magically have more because we have opened the floodgate to even more eligible workers? I don't think so.

You claim supply and demand takes care of those problems. So does it or doesn't it?

I am in law enforcement. In my experience (what is yours in this, by the way, other then what you heard on the news) illegals have no problems with reporting crime. We take countless reports from them.

Blah blah blah. I'm former LE too. Not impressed. You can tell that story walking, "If you're not a cop you don't understand." I was and I do.

And, I'm assuming here, considering that you have little experience with the actual workings of law enforcement, such people now reporting crimes would actually "cause crime to go up". Alot of crimes go unreported, and not just from illegals. If the reason they chose not to report them was because of their legal status, and they now reported them, crime statistics would actually rise.

Until the people who prey on illegals get arrested and prosecuted. Unchecked criminals keep offending.

What you're also assuming here is that law enforcement would actually be able to solve those crimes. In most crimes, there is very little suspect information, and what is given are vague physically descriptions given by victims. And can be accounted for by experts in the field, most descriptions given usually have inaccuracies. So, just because those crimes are reported doesn't mean that crimes would be solved and go down.

More "I'm a cop and you just don't get it" crap. Get over yourself. I've done my time.

But what I suggest would not cost all that much to have a significant impact, nor would it require gobs of law enforcement. All you have to do is make it so painful for some high profile people in companies that everyone else would be too fearful to do so because of the consequences. Simple enough.

Except no one in power wants to have it done, the companies don't want to have it done to them, and the citizens want cheap lettuce. So it won't happen. How simple it is is quite beside the point. Won't happen, quit wishing for it.

Because we don't take it seriously.

Bingo. And this too. You want to secure the borders or not? Apparently not.

Because you physically can't control the manufacture of alcohol.

Because you can't control the borders. It ain't the booze, it's where it comes in. Same for drugs, human trafficking, and illegal migrant workers.

Contining to propose a solution that isn't an acutal solution isn't a solution either.

It is a solution to securing our borders. That's all I care about.

Like a lot of drugs, your cure is worse then the acutal disease.

The alternative is nothing changes. Some cure.

So rather then attacking the argument, you chose instead to attack the person. Good strategy. Just like the modern liberal. Call anything you don't like hate-filled so that they can be emotionally discounted.

Except I'm a conservative. Go figure.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

I've been thinking about that statement your co-worker said all day. I think it's a racist statement.

If he meant that he preferred the company of conservatives to that of liberals, he could have said that. But he had to put 'black' and 'white' in it. What it appears he is saying is "I prefer the company of white people, but if they are liberal, then I'd prefer the company of black people who are conservative instead."

It's no crime for people to prefer to be around those with whom the most closely identify, so this has had me turning it over and over again in my mind. But when I think of the words your co-worker chose, I can't help but see it as a racist statement. It's a statement of contrast, meant to illustrate how much he prefers the company of conservatives over liberals, but as guideposts, he uses 'white' to denote that which he really likes, and 'black' to denote what he really doesn't like. It's like saying a person would prefer to eat good food, but they'd eat garbage if the good food were cooked by a liberal and the garbage thrown out by a conservative. Contrasts. He likes white people and dislikes black people. He's trying to show how much he prefers the company of conservatives over liberals, but to do that, he's demonstrating the two things he can think of that represent what he loves and what he hates.

I think your co-worker has some issues, and the least of them may be that he or she is a racist.

But it kind of goes with the line of statements people have been making in this thread. They're not racist, but they can imagine no circumstances under which they would tolerate massive Hispanic migration to the USA (except for 'go stand in line', which they of course know won't happen for all the reasons I've given). It's like watching a kid come up with reasons why he won't eat his Brussels sprouts. To hell with logic, he just doesn't like them!

See, here I was thinking that you understood that we were talking about race, racism, and culture in the context of freedom of association, and would understand that the comment was made in that context. Seems others get it. But I'll assume that the problem was my doing so I'll make it clear.

He made the comment in the context of race, racism, and culture in the context of freedom of association. Basically, his comment was about the fact that he doesn't care what race a person is, it is the culture that they embrace which matters to him.

Always looking towards the negative I see. Guess you really didn't give it as much thought as you would have us believe.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

My desire is to secure the border.

Which only effective inso far as it goes, which is no where. I no way would it mitigate the effects that illegal immigration causes. Things in this country would remain the same. That is what you don't care about apparently.

Yep.

Sorry, but none of those is unskilled labor.

I'm not from Michigan. I just live here now. Like I lived in New Mexico for several years, Illinois growing up, Colorado for decades, Nebraska, North Carolina, Wisconsin, and California.

I thought you knew my kind.

Liberals, absolutely. Call yourself what you want, but if it looks, talks, and acts like one......

No there isn't.

Yeah, there is. It's a psychological difference which you seem to refuse to realize. Which then has its own effects. So be it.

Law-abiding and want to live here. That's good enough.

For you, but not for me. But I guess that makes me a racist then, huh?

Is that worse that illegal aliens hiding from the ICE and working in subhuman conditions? I don't see how.

Because once again you ignore the psychological.

We'll know how much they cost us and can make adjustments. The very poor also will be getting free health care, thanks to Obamacare, remember? Right now, we just can't estimate the price, because we don't know how many of them there are.

Which is to say that they will cost us more, not less as you made in your argument. Thank you for, once again, proving my point.

Then you prefer things to remain as they are.

Is this about my preferences, or what I think will actually happen. I have stated my preference. Don't try to hide behind the fact that our politicians don't have the nuts to do the right thing as to somehow mean that that is my preference.

Either way, unlike you, I will not agree to just "do something", just so I can say that I'm doing something, even though it will not in fact solve the problem. That is a liberal trait.

Hmmm... something about a duck comes to mind once again.

The sole problem that concerns me is securing our borders; which is what the people who seem to hate the ideal of legalizing illegal aliens also claim to want - except they don't.

Yes, they do. But they don't agree that your solution is the goal to solving the myriad of other issues which come along with both it, and illegal immigration. And they are exactly the same.

Yes they do. They say it all the time. They claim they would love them some Mexicans long time if only they'd stand in line and come in legally. They only hate them for being illegal, they claim.

Yes, because, in their being illegal, come a host of problems which you acknowledge in theory, but when they are addressed in the context of your supposed solution, refuse to argue.

Besides, as I have shown, which you even haven't tried to refute, your solution wouldn't actually even secure the border because there would continue to be a huge market for illegal immigrant workers.

No matter how many times you say it, it doesn't make it true.

It has been said in this they cost us billions in services. How do they cost us billions in services they don't have access to? Either they do or they don't. Can't have it both ways.

Because there are billions in services that they do have access to. Medical care, schooling, police services, fire services, court services, traffic services, use of public highways. And the list goes on and on.

Oh, but I guess you only want to talk about the services that they explicitly can't get, like welfare, while ignoring all of the other services they do get. I guess that's cuz it doesn't suit your argument.

You claim supply and demand takes care of those problems. So does it or doesn't it?

What? Supply and demand have nothing to do with what I said here. Somehow you think that having millions of additional workers here will magically create jobs here.

Or is it that demanding jobs somehow causes them to appear. Oh, I get it now... poof....

Blah blah blah. I'm former LE too. Not impressed. You can tell that story walking, "If you're not a cop you don't understand." I was and I do.

Don't need you to be impressed. In fact, if you were I would begin to doubt the merits of my own argument. Besides, I did say I was assuming, didn't I, leading to the admission that I could be wrong on that point.

But you still didn't address the point, did you. Typical.

Until the people who prey on illegals get arrested and prosecuted. Unchecked criminals keep offending.

Yeah. Except, and I'm surprised what with your vast law enforcement experience, that just because one makes a report doesn't mean that a crime is solved or a person arrested. We dispo a lot more cases as unsolved then solved.

But then again, you know that. Just still ignoring the argument.

More "I'm a cop and you just don't get it" crap. Get over yourself. I've done my time.

Still ignoring the argument.

Except no one in power wants to have it done, the companies don't want to have it done to them, and the citizens want cheap lettuce. So it won't happen. How simple it is is quite beside the point. Won't happen, quit wishing for it.

Yes, and lets spend millions of dollars, if not billions, revamping the system into something that pretends to work, but actually doesn't. How so much better, huh?

Bingo. And this too. You want to secure the borders or not? Apparently not.

Bingo. Because you haven't provided a serious solution. Once again, it is only if we do what you want will you consider it serious.

Wasn't there a book written about liberals once called "The Vision of the Anointed." Hmmmm.....

Because you can't control the borders. It ain't the booze, it's where it comes in. Same for drugs, human trafficking, and illegal migrant workers.

Hmmm. Berlin did it, the Soviet Union did it, Mexico does a fair job of doing it. But noooo, it can't be done. If you say so, of course.

It is a solution to securing our borders. That's all I care about.

Nope, sorry it doesn't. Shown it, you have done nothing to refute it.

The alternative is nothing changes. Some cure.

Much better than faking it.

Except I'm a conservative. Go figure.

:roflmao:

Unless I can't control my ability to bang my head into a brick wall, I think I'm going to bow out of this thread. You aren't making logical arguments, refuse to explain the contradictions in your own position, and are quick to negatively judge everything you hear.

 

[Aiki Lee]

Let me break a few things down

Mexican health care is terrible, as broken as our health care system is, immigrants have a much higher chance of living healthy lives in America.

Illegal Immigrants do not qualify for most benefits. Without a social security number thay cannot recieve SSI, Medicaid, or medicare. The monetary drain they place on society in some occasions is due to not having any ability to pay for health care. Health care reform is tied to immigration reform.

Amnesty for immigrants without felony charges would benefit everyone. The immigrants could demand more from employers if granted legal status, they could access services to assit them in improving quality of life. As I said earlier, not everyone should get amnesty, but a good lot of them should.

Our nation was founded on the idea that all men are created equal and have the right to seek happiness in their lives. To deny someone that simply because of lack of documentation is hypocritical of our nations precieved values.

Illegal immigrants tend to take jobs that either no one wants, or pays illegally such as under the table, or below required minimum wages, or with lack of benefits. The issue caused here is not the immigrants fault who tend to only want to support their families; it is the fault of the employers who are unfair to them. If the employers were forced to pay them the same (and immigrants would then not be afraid to contact services and put those employers in the hot seat for their behavior)

I understand where the other side is coming from, but basic human rights shouldn't be ignored. People deserve to be healthy, they deserve to feed their families, they deserve respect and should be treated with dignity not like some kind of rodent infestation.

 

[tshadowchaser]

How about we bring back the mandatory draft. Anyone that we find in this country (adults that is) must serve in our military for a 4 year period or be sent back where they came from or imprisoned. If they serve for four years then they will be given the chance to become citizens and allowed to stay.

 

[dancingalone]

How about we bring back the mandatory draft. Anyone that we find in this country (adults that is) must serve in our military for a 4 year period or be sent back where they came from or imprisoned. If they serve for four years then they will be given the chance to become citizens and allowed to stay.

Wouldn't work if only because of the legions of kids (citizens or not) that would be left without parents.

I like the idea in spirit however.

 

[elder999]

Let me break a few things down

Mexican health care is terrible, as broken as our health care system is, immigrants have a much higher chance of living healthy lives in America.

Ya kinda broke that one-Mexican health care is pretty good, actually. WHile there's a graded system for coverage, and a vast gulf between what the rich can do vs. the poor, their costs are lower than ours, and the quality of care is quite high-lots of people in border states like this one go to Mexico for dentistry (about 20-25% of U.S. costs), surgery and plastic surgery. Medications are cheaper there as well. And, with so many U.S. doctors going to medical school in foreign countries like Mexico, and so many Mexican doctors getting at least part of their training in the U.S., the level of expertise is also equitable with the U.S. Mexico also has many excellent hospitals.

 

[Satt]

People deserve to be healthy, they deserve to feed their families, they deserve respect and should be treated with dignity not like some kind of rodent infestation.

I agree with the last part in red. However, I don't agree with the word "deserve". The ONLY thing we are guaranteed when we are born is that we will die.

 

[Archangel M]

One thing I do know is that Mexico is pretty much a war zone. If these people are trying to flee the violence we should be granting them refugee status. Some Mexican police chiefs have to lead their officers via CCTV from secure locations because the drug cartels kill them so often.

(WARNING: Violent and disturbing.)

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e99_1234563883

The Mexican Cartels even advertise for recruits.

http://www.securitycornermexico.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=685&Itemid=1009

And get them because the government, the military and their police departments are so corrupt.

And it's leaking over into OUR country. There have been entire Texan PD's shut down by the feds for trafficking. And rumors that even US District Attorneys are on the take along the border. We need to treat that border like we were adjacent to Afghanistan. It's THAT bad.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

Let me break a few things down


Illegal Immigrants do not qualify for most benefits. Without a social security number thay cannot recieve SSI, Medicaid, or medicare. The monetary drain they place on society in some occasions is due to not having any ability to pay for health care. Health care reform is tied to immigration reform.

Why is it that people insist that medical care is is the only service that illegal immigrants get that they don't pay for? Such is not the case, as I have tried to show. They get all of the services that most Americans take for granted, such as police, fire, EMS, roads, etc.

And health care reform is not tied to immigration reform. Even if you listen to Obama, illegal immigrants will not be eligible for benefits under his health insurance plan.

Amnesty for immigrants without felony charges would benefit everyone. The immigrants could demand more from employers if granted legal status, they could access services to assit them in improving quality of life. As I said earlier, not everyone should get amnesty, but a good lot of them should.

How does helping them help me? So, by giving them more services that they will be unable to pay for, somehow that is supposed to help me. How is that? How does them demanding more from their employers help the average U.S. citizen.

Our nation was founded on the idea that all men are created equal and have the right to seek happiness in their lives. To deny someone that simply because of lack of documentation is hypocritical of our nations precieved values.

Even as you say "all men ... have the right to seek happiness in their lives." The operative word is "seek". That does not mean guaranteed, or that any group of individuals, or government, is mandated to give it to them. To take what our country was founded on, all men were expected to work for what they wanted, and that includes jumping through legal hurdles, such as applying for citizenship.

Illegal immigrants tend to take jobs that either no one wants

You mean like mechanics, landscapers, construction workers, carpenters, plumbers. Those jobs that no one wants. That's just not true at all.

or pays illegally such as under the table, or below required minimum wages, or with lack of benefits.

Now that is the kicker. Americans won't do jobs for less then fair market value. When the deck is stacked against them, in the form of required minimum wages that illegals do not have to be paid, then it isn't fair.

The issue caused here is not the immigrants fault who tend to only want to support their families; it is the fault of the employers who are unfair to them.

Wow, really? How are employers unfair to them? Employers are aren't even supposed to be hiring them. These illegal immigrants who have jobs shouldn't. Quite frankly, they are both taking advantage of each other.

If the employers were forced to pay them the same (and immigrants would then not be afraid to contact services and put those employers in the hot seat for their behavior)

If they were forced to pay them the same, why hire them? They would have to then compete on an even keel with those whose skill, education, and experience probably exceed theirs.

I understand where the other side is coming from,

No, I don't actually think that you do.

but basic human rights shouldn't be ignored.

And what human rights are being ignored? They have jobs that they otherwise wouldn't have, not even in their own country. They recieve benefits in excess of what they pay for. Their standard of living is higher then they would have in their own country.

I'm sorry. How are we ignoring their human rights again?

[/QUOTE]People deserve to be healthy[/quote]

No, they don't, the deserve the opportunity to be healthy, which is different.

, they deserve to feed their families

Once again, no they don't. They deserve the opportunity to feed their families.

[/quote]
they deserve respect and should be treated with dignity not like some kind of rodent infestation.[/quote]

Respect is not given freely. It is earned. And when they violate the laws of our nation, I am reluctant to do so. When they abandon their country to the despotism and violence which is occuring, and do nothing, even if from afar, to change it, no they do not. When they come here and take, but give little if anything in return, no they do not deserve respect.

Let me come into your house, tell you that I deserve to be there, demand that you pay me, tell you to provide me with health care and protection and see if you respect me then. Will you give me everything that I am demanding? If so, what is your address?

 

[Phoenix44]

It's a fallacy that prices would "shoot up" if Americans were hired. The prices should go up very little, and here's why:

Labor costs are only part of the cost of a product, I've heard some quotes of 15-20%. Suppose a head of lettuce costs, let's say $1.00. And let's say the cost of labor increases 40%. .20 x .40 = .08 (8%).

Would you pay 8 cents more for a head of lettuce if you knew you were helping one of your fellow Americans keep a decent job and feed his/her family, and decreasing illegal immigration? Would you pay 10 or 15 cents more? What's it worth to you?

Now if the prices "shot up," that would mean the producer, manufacturer or vendor was a pig, and was increasing his/her own profit. That's the kind of thing we see happen when a barrel (42 gallons) of crude oil goes up a couple of bucks, and you immediately see prices go up 30 cents per gallon at the gas pump. It's called gouging.

 

[dancingalone]

There's also price and demand elasticity. I know I won't pay much more than a buck for lettuce. If it jumps to $1.50 a head, I'll probably buy some other leafy green since lettuce is virtually without nutritional merit anyway. If enough others are like me, the lettuce producers must adjust their pricing anyway even if they don't have the benefit of lowly paid illegal workers.

Or the lawn mowing business. You used to be able to get a neighborhood kid to do it for you for about $40 front and back in my area. Those kids have largely been replaced by small businesses who use illegal workers charging around the same price. If we suddenly lost the illegal workers, I bet you'd see more kids mowing lawns for pocket money again.

We can't always assume the loss of illegal workers must mean a corresponding raise in prices. Their use in the American economy don't always reflect a savings to consumers...many times I am sure, the savings goes straight to the wallet of the business owners.

 

[Joab]

There's also price and demand elasticity. I know I won't pay much more than a buck for lettuce. If it jumps to $1.50 a head, I'll probably buy some other leafy green since lettuce is virtually without nutritional merit anyway. If enough others are like me, the lettuce producers must adjust their pricing anyway even if they don't have the benefit of lowly paid illegal workers.

Or the lawn mowing business. You used to be able to get a neighborhood kid to do it for you for about $40 front and back in my area. Those kids have largely been replaced by small businesses who use illegal workers charging around the same price. If we suddenly lost the illegal workers, I bet you'd see more kids mowing lawns for pocket money again.

We can't always assume the loss of illegal workers must mean a corresponding raise in prices. Their use in the American economy don't always reflect a savings to consumers...many times I am sure, the savings goes straight to the wallet of the business owners.

The key to me is they are "illegal aliens". They arn't supposed to be here. By and large the INS really does know where they are and really could round them up and send them back to Mexico if the logisitcs could be worked out to transport that huge number of people that distance. A better way is to fine the companies that hire them enough that it isn't economically feasible for them to hire illegal aliens. If there were no jobs in the USA for the illegal aliens they wouldn't come here in the first place, and those that are here would go somewhere else, hopefully their home country.

By helping develop Mexico and help grow the economy and the number of jobs would help equally well. If there were enough jobs in Mexico paying a living wage they wouldn't feel the need to come to the USA for work. Difficult to do I acknowledge, but I really do believe this two pronged approach is a way that would really work. Sadly, this is unlikely to happen, the reason it won't likely happen is because it would likely work and there are lots of people who want to keep things the way they are for the cheap source of labor.