The real answer to getting rid of illegal aliens

[Blade96]

I'd agree with both Joab and Bill.

Grant the ones in the US already, amnesty

Then help people in other countries improve their own conditions so they can stay at home and wouldnt have to leave.

I am betting that, like my people many of whom left to better pastures so get a better life (not much here actually) illegal immigrants really dont want to leave. They would like to stay home but life there sucks.

Just like Newfoundlanders who have to leave but they really dont want to.

 

[Archangel M]

Politically... Amnesty is about the democrat party hoping that they will get a boost in their voting block. Anybody who believes that they are thinking otherwise is naive.

 

[elder999]

Politically... Amnesty is about the democrat party hoping that they will get a boost in their voting block. Anybody who believes that they are thinking otherwise is naive.

What was it about when then President George Bush was pushing for it, then?

 

[geezer]

If you want to control illegal immigration, you have to control the jobs... as said before, fine or otherwise punish the employers. Nothing draconian. It's not the severity of the punishment that makes it effective, but the certainty. You have to enforce the law or it's not worth a damn.

Now as to how you go about enforcing the law... (now I know this will tick Bill off big time) you need a standardized, totally up-to-date National ID card complete with all the unforgeable bells and whistles ...you know, a hologram, magnetic strip, maybe a fingerprint, ...whatever. Now if everybody legally here and entitled to work could present such a card, or if they prefer (like Bill) to do it the old way with several traditional forms of ID and E-Verify... well then it would be awfully hard to get a job if you weren't legal. Simple enough. And no need to have anti-immigrant sweeps, mass deportations or the 21st Century's answer to the Great Wall on our southern border. If there are no jobs... they won't come. And, if the economy improves, and it turns out that we really do need more imported labor... great. Then we can offer work permits.

But, in any case, there's no call in getting all hateful towards Mexicans looking to feed their families. Let's just solve the problem.

Another thing. Would you guys stop saying things like "I have no problem with them coming over here legally... it's just the illegals I oppose..." Don't be willfully obtuse. It is virtually impossible for a poor Mexican or Central American laborer to get legal US work papers. Even if they spend every last centavo they have, fill out reams of paperwork and wait twenty years. That's why they leave their families, pay smugglers their life savings and risk their lives to jump the fence and walk across the desert. Maybe you thought it was because they were just bad or lazy? Get real guys!

 

[Cryozombie]

Another thing. Would you guys stop saying things like "I have no problem with them coming over here legally... it's just the illegals I oppose..." Don't be willfully obtuse. It is virtually impossible for a poor Mexican or Central American laborer to get legal US work papers. Even if they spend every last centavo they have, fill out reams of paperwork and wait twenty years. That's why they leave their families, pay smugglers their life savings and risk their lives to jump the fence and walk across the desert. Maybe you thought it was because they were just bad or lazy? Get real guys!

I don't think this is a valid justification. Even if I scrape together every cent I have, apply for dozens of loans and fill out grant paperwork till its coming out of my ears, I still wont be able to afford a Ferrarri. Does this give me the right to steal one from a dealership?

 

[kungfu penguin]

my big thing is educating illegals our scores are brought down because a lot of them had terrible or no education in their country we are being held to NCLB standards and then we have some [not all] of these kids whose primary language is terrible and their english is even more so. these kids are expected to take the state test but any language expert worth their salt will tell you it take 7-9 years to acclimate yet we test them as long as they have been here more than 60 days, that is my gripe about illgal aliens if they are "illegal" why do we designate so much money for them when we have citizens that cant get the same things [example paid hospital visits] maybe i dont see the whole picture but from where i teach, i see this all the time. one final gripe: how come a person who has lived in this country more than 15 years still cant or wont speak english? i know if i lived in another country i would want to know how to communicate and not have to rely on someone to interpret for me as soon as possible in short i would want to be self reliant not dependant on others

 

[geezer]

I don't think this is a valid justification. Even if I scrape together every cent I have, apply for dozens of loans and fill out grant paperwork till its coming out of my ears, I still wont be able to afford a Ferrarri. Does this give me the right to steal one from a dealership?

Hell no! I'm not saying that we should throw our borders wide open. I'm just tired of hearing people say stuff like "My only problem with these immigrants is that they are illegal. I wouldn't mind if they came over here legally like my ancestors." Like getting here legally is even an option!

IT'S NOT.

And, when you really think about it, we could control immigration more effectively if we did have some way for some of these people to work here legally... you know, having a carrot as well as a stick? Bush understood that. So did McCain (before he got scared that he'd lose in the next primary).. and Obama too. It's just a matter of finding the right balance at the right time to fit our economic needs. Sadly, politically and economically, now isn't that time.

 

[Cryozombie]

Like getting here legally is even an option!

IT'S NOT.

I don't believe this. Do you know why I don't believe this? Because I work with DOZENS of Legal immigrants. In fact My town is almost 40% Hispanic, and while they estimate that nearly 60% of the Hispanic Population is Illegal that means 40% are here by legal means, meaning IT IS POSSIBLE.

While I agree that it is not possible for EVERYONE, and Difficult for some, again it is no excuse: Getting a Medical degree is not an option for me, should I practice medicine anyhow? I mean, I'm just trying to better my situation, earn a little more and support my family in a way that elevates them. Shouldn't I be given that opportunity, just because it costs too much, requires too much education and paperwork, and takes too long of a wait to complete?

And, just because one disagrees with the law, doesn't mean it SHOULD be ignored or broken, with zero consequence. Where do we draw the line on that? I can think of dozens of laws that don't make sense, I can think of a few I can argue against and a sane person would be hard pressed to find fault in my reasoning (ask me about DVD piracy laws some day) but it does not mean I can simply break them because they are wrong.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

But, in any case, there's no call in getting all hateful towards Mexicans looking to feed their families. Let's just solve the problem.

Who's getting hateful. What you see are people who perceive a problem and either a) venting their frustration (read: catapults), or b) trying to provide solutions.

Another thing. Would you guys stop saying things like "I have no problem with them coming over here legally... it's just the illegals I oppose..." Don't be willfully obtuse. It is virtually impossible for a poor Mexican or Central American laborer to get legal US work papers. Even if they spend every last centavo they have, fill out reams of paperwork and wait twenty years. That's why they leave their families, pay smugglers their life savings and risk their lives to jump the fence and walk across the desert. Maybe you thought it was because they were just bad or lazy? Get real guys!

Maybe you should understand that the United States does not just let every person who wants to be a legal citizen into the country, regardless of nation of origin. They have to meet certain criteria. Including issues regarding to being able to get gainful employment.

Now, with thousands of illegals coming into the country every year taking those jobs that people trying to come here legally would take, perhaps they are weighing that into the factor.

Not to say that our legal residency / citizenship process couldn't use a bit of work. But, there are other factors to consider besides the one you present.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

If we granted amnesty to illegal aliens it would not be anarchy per se as the law would be changed.

I think we may not have the same definition of the word 'anarchy'. It means literally 'no law'. A state of anarchy exists when there is no law whatsoever. Changing laws is not anarchy, it's changing laws.

It would also make suckers of those who played by the rules and waited in line while trying to immigrate to the the USA legally.

As I said, reward those by putting them first in line for citizenship.

And frankly - I don't think that the reason most people are against immigration reform is because they're overly concerned with the plight of the people who patiently waited in line and played by the rules. It's just a tick mark on the list of objections they have to them bad awful Mexicans. Not you - some people.

It would in reality be rewarding people for illegal activity and encourage other such actions in the future, I am completely opposed to granting illegal aliens amnesty.

Then what solution would you be in favor of? Continuing the status quo? I find that many people who refuse to consider immigration reform or amnesty have a single statement - "enforce the law," which in my opinion is a way of saying "do nothing at all," because the law will not be enforced. At this point, that should be clear to everyone. We haven't the will, we haven't the manpower, we haven't the prison space, we haven't the money. It will not happen. So I'm in favor of an actual solution.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Politically... Amnesty is about the democrat party hoping that they will get a boost in their voting block. Anybody who believes that they are thinking otherwise is naive.

It was a major part of Senator McCain's platform when he was running for President. I was a supporter, I went to his rallies and I heard it out of his own mouth, personally. Do you suppose that he is a Democrat or that I am 'naive'?

 

[Archangel M]

I mean currently.

Even Bush was pandering the Hispanic vote for the same reason.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I mean currently.

Even Bush was pandering the Hispanic vote for the same reason.

McCain was stumping in Michigan when I heard him support amnesty. Not much of a Hispanic vote to curry. And his point of view was not popular - he was booed. I believe this is his conscience and his belief on how to solve this problem, and I agree with him. I'm not running for office, I am not trying to curry favor with anyone. And clearly, I don't care if I piss off my fellow conservatives. I think they're wrong if they're not for immigration reform. I'm willing to be my own man and don't feel the need to kneel and kiss the ring of the uber-conservative jackholes.

 

[Archangel M]

Before we decide to bestow citizenship to people who flouted our laws we need to secure our borders.

 

[Carol]

Before we decide to bestow citizenship to people who flouted our laws we need to secure our borders.

I can't argue with that logic. :asian:

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

Then what solution would you be in favor of? Continuing the status quo? I find that many people who refuse to consider immigration reform or amnesty have a single statement - "enforce the law," which in my opinion is a way of saying "do nothing at all," because the law will not be enforced. At this point, that should be clear to everyone. We haven't the will, we haven't the manpower, we haven't the prison space, we haven't the money. It will not happen. So I'm in favor of an actual solution.

Solution to what, exactly?

We had an amnesty in 1986. It was supposed to stem the tide of illegal immigration. It obviously didn't work.

Ok, so those that are here are now citizens / legal residents. Now what? How do you stop further incursions across our border? Especially in light of the fact that if enough come across again, with the history that we are trending, we will have yet another amnesty program.

So it really wouldn't solve the problem.

And frankly - I don't think that the reason most people are against immigration reform is because they're overly concerned with the plight of the people who patiently waited in line and played by the rules. It's just a tick mark on the list of objections they have to them bad awful Mexicans. Not you - some people.

No, it's because they believe that there is a legal and proper way to accomplish U.S. Citizenship. Quite frankly, I only care about their plight in a distant, observational kind of way. I don't lay awake at night concerned about the daily occurings in Mexico.

Either way, you point about their view of "bad awful Mexicans", is yet more rhetoric that those for kicking them out are racist. Most Americans are for legal immigration and against illegal immigration. The polls show that time and again. But, in order to stir the pot, you have to bring up that some people are racist. Good job!

 

[Joab]

Then what solution would you be in favor of? Continuing the status quo? I find that many people who refuse to consider immigration reform or amnesty have a single statement - "enforce the law," which in my opinion is a way of saying "do nothing at all," because the law will not be enforced. At this point, that should be clear to everyone. We haven't the will, we haven't the manpower, we haven't the prison space, we haven't the money. It will not happen. So I'm in favor of an actual solution.

Read my original post. Fine companies that hire illegal aliens an amount that would not make it fiscally feasible to hire them. Help develop the economy of Mexico so that those in Mexico will not believe they need to risk their lives to come into the USA illegally to get a job.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I can't argue with that logic. :asian:

I can. If we do not possess the ability to secure our borders, then it does not make sense to require that as a prerequisite to dealing with the issue of illegal immigration.

Imagine if the captain of the Titanic had said "Before we deal with the problem of getting people into lifeboats, I want the hole in the ship patched." Good idea?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Read my original post. Fine companies that hire illegal aliens an amount that would not make it fiscally feasible to hire them.

I did. It betrays a lack of understanding of conditions that prevail.

Fine companies? We have such laws. They're rarely enforced. You could argue that they should be enforced. Yes, but how? Too many companies, too few enforcement officers, not enough money (or will) to perform such enforcement. We could collect all overdue library book fines too; but there is no manpower or will to do so, therefore it does not and will not get done. You can 'want' it all you wish; it's not going to happen. Let's deal with reality.

Help develop the economy of Mexico so that those in Mexico will not believe they need to risk their lives to come into the USA illegally to get a job.

We cannot even get our own economy off it's knees, and you want us sending more money to Mexico? Not only do we not have the money or the ability to restore Mexico's economy, in no way would US conservatives ever agree to such a plan. It's not even a remote possibility.

I said solve the problem, not throw out a bunch of ideas that have zero percent chance of occurring and insisting that they be tried first. That is the same as saying you want the status quo, because that's what will happen; nothing at all.

 

[Archangel M]

Great Idea..lets just keep granting amnesty to anybody who crosses our borders illegally while doing nothing to secure them. Where do you see THAT leading?

We certainly DO have the ability to secure our border to a much more effective degree than we currently do, if we had a government with the will to do so.