Phil Elmore
Master of Arts
Is this your way of confessing that you have nothing to add to the debate?
Home Invasion at the National Level
- Thread starter Phil Elmore
- Start date
Phil Elmore said:
There is HUGE difference between enforcing citizenship laws and hiring a contract killer. There is also a HUGE difference in demand for cheap unregulated labor. This is a false comparison.
The market's demand for cheap and unregulated labor has made the laws of this country irrellevent. If the government were to enforce these laws, it would be interfereing with Adam's Smith invisible hand...aka the market.
This is your statement above...
Note the boldfaced. You included pricing and the market in your statement. Therefore, I am correct in pointing out the contradiction.
By suggesting that the government enforce immigration laws you are suggesting that the government interfere in the labor market for cheap unregulated labor and are advocating a government control of an aspect of "the Market."
Thusly, you are advocating something that will have "negative and unintended consequences."
upnorthkyosa
ps - of course another way of looking at this is that some market controls actually do have positive effects...
Edmund BlackAdder
<B>Rabid Wolverine</B>
The law very specifically covers how access to the US may be gained, and who should be allowed in.
There are very specific laws and guidelines covering immigration, non-resident work, and visitors.
The people in question are here in violation of those laws.
Simply put, the existing laws should be enforced, and those who are here in violation of them, held accountable. The border should be better patrolled to increase security to minimize further violations.
I'm sorry if someone will have to pay more in wages then, and the cost of lettuce and cheap crap and your McFatty Burgers goes up, but I'd rather pay an extra buck for a burger at the local choke and puke, than worry about some criminal who might hit my kid and skip across the Rio grande and not get punished, or some terrorist who might decide that anthrax in my water will get him stiff.
These people are criminals. They are here in violation of the law. Violators of the law = criminals. Duh.
If they want to immigrate, they have well defined procedures that will allow them to do so, legally. Part of that involves screening for, CRIMINALS!!!!!!
Duh. But, no, lets open the borders so every rapist, murderer, child molester, drug dealer and psycho can move to LA and enjoy that clean ocean breeze.
There are very specific laws and guidelines covering immigration, non-resident work, and visitors.
The people in question are here in violation of those laws.
Simply put, the existing laws should be enforced, and those who are here in violation of them, held accountable. The border should be better patrolled to increase security to minimize further violations.
I'm sorry if someone will have to pay more in wages then, and the cost of lettuce and cheap crap and your McFatty Burgers goes up, but I'd rather pay an extra buck for a burger at the local choke and puke, than worry about some criminal who might hit my kid and skip across the Rio grande and not get punished, or some terrorist who might decide that anthrax in my water will get him stiff.
These people are criminals. They are here in violation of the law. Violators of the law = criminals. Duh.
If they want to immigrate, they have well defined procedures that will allow them to do so, legally. Part of that involves screening for, CRIMINALS!!!!!!
Duh. But, no, lets open the borders so every rapist, murderer, child molester, drug dealer and psycho can move to LA and enjoy that clean ocean breeze.
Flatlander
Grandmaster
Government intervention in the market is why China is going to take over the head spot at the table. Lack of government intervention is why the US is going to let that happen. If nobody tends the garden, it will grow weeds.Phil Elmore said:
Flatlander said:
The type of thing Phil was talking about is not the type of thing you are refering to.
China does do things that helps the Chinese goverment at the expense of individuals. The type of thing that they were debating is the way the US goverment has tried to take care of individuals by force of law.
In China, the so-called "greater good" has precedence over any one individual. If you must be sacrificed for this, they will do it. As a matter of course, anyone who is not as important for the greater good will be shoved aside, or if some big company has ties to a corrupt goverment functionary- or even if that goverment official is just mad at you for some reason. The result is the same, you will get the shaft by people talking about the greater good of China.
Maybe the papers I read here are a bit more concentrated on the matter than the ones you read. But it seems that hardly a week goes by without some story of the little people getting the shaft by the Chinese goverment. The wage controls, etc that Phil and others are debating are at the other end of the scale.
http://www.twincities.com/mld/dfw/news/world/14415720.htm?source=rss&channel=dfw_world
Hey, don't scream at me. I am just posting the link. I will not be responsible if you feel an urge to scream or worse after reading it.
Hey, don't scream at me. I am just posting the link. I will not be responsible if you feel an urge to scream or worse after reading it.
hardheadjarhead
Senior Master
Phil Elmore said:
Sorry. The analogy fails.
The vast majority of illegal immigrants come here to work. The vast majority of murderers are NOT contract killers.
Government regulation is indeed interfering with the market. The price of meat alone would go through the roof if we lost the Mexican labor currently working in the meat packing plants in Texas and Oklahoma.
Regards,
Steve
Phil Elmore
Master of Arts
No, the analogy does not fail. It is a myth that the "vast majority" if illegal immigrants "come here to work." The cost of illegal immigration far outweighs the economic production of these illegal aliens.
Phil Elmore
Master of Arts
You ask me to cite my source, but you don't ask him to cite his? (I cited multiple sources in my original essay, for that matter, whereas he has provided none for his assertions.)
Phil Elmore
Master of Arts
It would and it does.
hardheadjarhead
Senior Master
Upnorthkyosa wrote: By opposing immigration, the government is interfereing in the market.
You responded: That's spurious logic. By imprisoning people for murder, the government is interfering in the market for contract killings. There's a big difference between enforcing citizenship laws and artificially setting prices.
I in turn responded: Sorry. The analogy fails.
The vast majority of illegal immigrants come here to work. The vast majority of murderers are NOT contract killers.
Government regulation is indeed interfering with the market. The price of meat alone would go through the roof if we lost the Mexican labor currently working in the meat packing plants in Texas and Oklahoma.
Your analogy fails for the following reasons:
The proscription of murder applies to all members of society, not merely contract killers. Contract killings are rare. They contribute virtually nothing to the economy.
Immigration is not a violent crime. A substantial proportion of workers in the U.S. economy are immigrants.
Currently 11-17 million people in this country are immigrants. They're working in low paying jobs that natives typically won't take. If, by some wave of a magic wand, all the Mexican laborers in this country were to vanish and not return (which would make the bigots happy), the cost of manual labor would necessarily increase in order to lure American workers to those jobs. Hotel prices, restaurant fare, construction costs, and meat prices would increase.
Currently in the U.S. meat industry an "illegal" who is injured on the job in a meat packing plant won't apply for compensation for fear of being deported. They do not unionize for the same reason. This is why the meat packing industry moved their packing plants west and south, in what are called "new breed" plants.
"Turnover is high in meatpacking plantsĀmany plants hire two workers in the course of the year to keep one Ādisassembly-lineĀ job filled, a 100 percent turnover rateĀand recruitment is an ongoing activity. Most meatpackers offer signing bonuses: any current employee or independent recruiter who brings workers to the plant who are hired receives $200 to $400. Many recruiters operate in south Texas along the Mexican border, recruiting workers who are then given bus tickets to meatpacking plants in the Midwest."
Ah, where is Upton Sinclair when we need him?
Regards,
Steve
Just a few sources you requested via Shesulsa (next time, Phil, don't pass notes in class...and spit out your gum):
"Reefer Madness: Sex, Drugs, and Cheap Labor in the American Black Market" by Eric Schlosser.
"Fast Food Nation: The Dark Side of the All-American Meal" also by Schlosser.
http://migration.ucdavis.edu/cf/more.php?id=158_0_2_0
http://www.vdare.com/fulford/usa_today.htm
http://www.nationalaglawcenter.org/assets/crs/RL33002.pdf
http://www.poultry.org/labor_immigrants.htm
http://www.farmfoundation.org/1999NPPEC/martin.pdf
http://www.extension.iastate.edu/miac/AnneWoodrick.pdf
You responded: That's spurious logic. By imprisoning people for murder, the government is interfering in the market for contract killings. There's a big difference between enforcing citizenship laws and artificially setting prices.
I in turn responded: Sorry. The analogy fails.
The vast majority of illegal immigrants come here to work. The vast majority of murderers are NOT contract killers.
Government regulation is indeed interfering with the market. The price of meat alone would go through the roof if we lost the Mexican labor currently working in the meat packing plants in Texas and Oklahoma.
Your analogy fails for the following reasons:
The proscription of murder applies to all members of society, not merely contract killers. Contract killings are rare. They contribute virtually nothing to the economy.
Immigration is not a violent crime. A substantial proportion of workers in the U.S. economy are immigrants.
Currently 11-17 million people in this country are immigrants. They're working in low paying jobs that natives typically won't take. If, by some wave of a magic wand, all the Mexican laborers in this country were to vanish and not return (which would make the bigots happy), the cost of manual labor would necessarily increase in order to lure American workers to those jobs. Hotel prices, restaurant fare, construction costs, and meat prices would increase.
Currently in the U.S. meat industry an "illegal" who is injured on the job in a meat packing plant won't apply for compensation for fear of being deported. They do not unionize for the same reason. This is why the meat packing industry moved their packing plants west and south, in what are called "new breed" plants.
"Turnover is high in meatpacking plantsĀmany plants hire two workers in the course of the year to keep one Ādisassembly-lineĀ job filled, a 100 percent turnover rateĀand recruitment is an ongoing activity. Most meatpackers offer signing bonuses: any current employee or independent recruiter who brings workers to the plant who are hired receives $200 to $400. Many recruiters operate in south Texas along the Mexican border, recruiting workers who are then given bus tickets to meatpacking plants in the Midwest."
Ah, where is Upton Sinclair when we need him?
Regards,
Steve
Just a few sources you requested via Shesulsa (next time, Phil, don't pass notes in class...and spit out your gum):
"Reefer Madness: Sex, Drugs, and Cheap Labor in the American Black Market" by Eric Schlosser.
"Fast Food Nation: The Dark Side of the All-American Meal" also by Schlosser.
http://migration.ucdavis.edu/cf/more.php?id=158_0_2_0
http://www.vdare.com/fulford/usa_today.htm
http://www.nationalaglawcenter.org/assets/crs/RL33002.pdf
http://www.poultry.org/labor_immigrants.htm
http://www.farmfoundation.org/1999NPPEC/martin.pdf
http://www.extension.iastate.edu/miac/AnneWoodrick.pdf
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Phil Elmore
Master of Arts
That is true. Many illegal aliens are violent criminals, however, as evidenced by the statistics I cited originally.
It might be considered violent when it is changing the culture of a Nation to that of the Invaders.
JamesYazell
Yellow Belt
I like the 'subtle' hints that people disagreeing with you are brainwashed idiots...
Or maybe your the brainwashed one?
No seriously I agree with Carlos Mencia on this one
The Mexicans are going to be looking out for terrorists so we don't close the border up more
Or maybe your the brainwashed one?
No seriously I agree with Carlos Mencia on this one
The Mexicans are going to be looking out for terrorists so we don't close the border up more 
