Home Invasion at the National Level

[Andrew Green]

maybe Canada in areas well marked as such,

"Longest undefended border in the world", I'd call that a thing to be proud of and not undo.

We get our share of illegal US immigrants too, but I don't think setting up military defences is the right answer.

 

[Phil Elmore]

All the statistics establish is that some illegal immigrants commit crimes.

Actually, they establish that a disturbingly high percentage of violent criminals are illegal aliens, which establishes a significant threat associated with tolerating illegal immigration.

I'd imagine that goes both ways. How many American criminals have fled to Mexico illegally I wonder?

I don't see any groups of Americans in Mexico marching with American flags, demanding that these criminals be allowed to stay in the country, complaining that their civil rights are being violated if they are rounded up and deported.

Given the social, financial, and legal problems created by illegal immigration, we MUST take action to protect our borders and enforce our citizenship laws. I argue that this is necessary for the sake of the future of the country -- and I argue that the "benefits" of a cheap, virtually slave labor force now tolerated in the United States are far outweighed by the risks. I'll gladly pay more to the lowest tier of American workers and pay more for consumer goods if the exchange is a society in less danger from crime, in less debt from social services given to illegal aliens, and enjoying a higher percentage of employees for whom English is the first language.

 

[Makalakumu]

Right now, all of the solutions on the table in congress amount to "rearranging the deck chairs". Don Roley makes a good point...one that I made earlier. A demand exists in this country for cheap, unregulated, labor. Illegal immigrants are filling this demand. In a way, this is just like the demand for drugs. We can up the ante until we are "waging war" on it and it will still get here. The only solution, IMO, is to reduce demand. We will never be able to stop the flood of people trying to meet the demand in this country for cheap, unregulated, labor unless we really get draconian and create a 1500 mile DMZ...which isn't going to happen.

Further, the solutions being proposed by the DFL and the GOP are only going to exacerbate other social problems. The so-called guest worker program will effectively make minimum wage laws and occupational safety laws irrellevent. What it will do is create a second class citizenry that can be paid diddly squat, poisoned, and/or mangled on the job and thrown away when used up. The US will become a consumer in HUMAN BEINGS.

Guest Workers will be throwaway McWorkers.

And I think it is very useful to remember that "Guest Workers" can to more jobs then just those that most American do not want. I forsee that McWorkers will pop up in all sorts of places...just like their namesakes.

Want evidence...take a look at what we already have. I recommend that everyone read Fast Food Nation and Strawberry Feilds by Eric Schlosser. These Polemics will open your eyes to how our country uses immigrant labor. There is a reason that other people will not do these jobs...the working conditions are illegal...not to mention immoral. This makes one wonder what kind of working conditions these workers face living in Mexico? The fact that illegal immigrants are risking their lives to run away from conditions in their home countries should be alarming.

The problem of illegal immigrants is societal. It cannot be fixed by guest worker programs or by giving little nods toward increasing border security and/or punishing people who hire them (the GOP house bill btw only increases penalties for hiring illegals on small businesses. Corporations like ConAgra are excempt because it is believed that they are too big to be held responsible). They call this getting tough on immigration...

What we really have here is a flood of poor people seeking to feed their families. Globalization and free trade have created a race to the lowest common denominator in order to make the quickest and easiest buck. We need to globalize human rights if we are going to stop this. We need to make sure that every worker every where is paid fairly and treated like a human being if we are going to actually do something about immigration. And we need to punish severely, anyone and EVERYONE who attempts to mistreat people in order to pad the bottom lines on their account sheets.

I am firmly convinced that most of these illegal immigrants would rather stay home with their families. If we make it attractive for them to do so, then they will.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Really, no one in Congress wants to address this issue. When they do talk about it they take a position that tries to make themselves look good and yet they do nothing. Fact is we need the cheap labor. The other fact is that yes in a way we are being invaded and that some of these people do perform criminal acts. However, most of them just want to make some money and support their families.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[Kacey]

Mr. Elmore -

I am assuming that you are the person who sent me the book title (there was no signature on the reputation), and I appreciate your response. However, I am in graduate school in addition to working full time and teaching TKD. I would greatly appreciate it if you could quote some of the relevant information, as I do not currently have time to read the entire text. I would also be interested in your response to some of the points I made in earlier posts.

As far as crimes committed by illegal aliens, I don't think that anyone is disputing that they exist; however, I do think that, without comparative statistics on the number and types of charges brought against people (rather than the ones their lawyers get dropped or pled down) would be more informative and convincing than vague statements without proof beyond reports in the popular media... which, as we all know, leans toward reporting what people want to read, not necessarily what they need to read. People want to place blame outside themselves - and illegal aliens, by virtue of their status, are an easy target. Are they part of the problem? Certainly. Are they the only problem? Not in the slightest - the businesses which use their services, the people who buy the lower-priced services and/or products they produce, the government which looks the other way, are all part of the problem - it is societal, and simply closing the borders more will not solve this problem; there are too many people already here for that to fix anything, unless you are willing to wait several generations for the system to equalize, and, of course, assuming that you think the border can really be sealed.

 

[Phil Elmore]

I don't know what you're talking about. I sent you no book title.

As for relative statistics, when someone tells you a given percentage of people in prison or being sought for certain types of warrants, it stands to reason that the remaining portion of 100 percent represents the portion not comprised of illegal aliens. When both the percentage and an absolute number are presented at the same time, you can even do some equating and find the numbers of all persons involved. This is basic algebra, I think.

 

[MSUTKD]

I think they want the hard numbers. Are there real numbers to support the claim?

ron

 

[Phil Elmore]

I cited the numbers in the article.

The organization US Border Control reports that, according to something called the Center for Immigration Studies in Washington, DC, fully 30 percent of the nation's two million prison inmates are illegal immigrants. Heather MacDonald, in her 2004 report in the City Journal, wastes no time framing the problem. "Some of the most violent criminals at large today are illegal aliens," she writes. She goes on to report that 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (1,200 to 1,500 murders) "target" illegal aliens. Up to two thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens. What's worse, according to MacDonold, is that the Calfiornia Department of Justice has known since 1995 that at least 60 percent of the vicious 18th Street Gang in southern California comprises illegal aliens.

 

[MSUTKD]

Oops, sorry Phil. They missed it too.

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

As for relative statistics, when someone tells you a given percentage of people in prison or being sought for certain types of warrants, it stands to reason that the remaining portion of 100 percent represents the portion not comprised of illegal aliens. When both the percentage and an absolute number are presented at the same time, you can even do some equating and find the numbers of all persons involved. This is basic algebra, I think.

It's basic math, true; but, it's fallacious logic.

If illegal aliens commit crimes
And those caught go to jail or are sought
Then, that those not commiting crime are not illegal aliens.

The first statement must be an absolute in order for this logic to conclude correctly. As that cannot be, it follows that the argument is false.

 

[Phil Elmore]

No, there's nothing fallacious about it. If you don't consider such high percentages of the populations cited to be a cause for concern, that's great. I happen to think that having one third of our prison population comprised of illegal aliens to be cause for alarm.

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

No, there's nothing fallacious about it. If you don't consider such high percentages of the populations cited to be a cause for concern, that's great. I happen to think that having one third of our prison population comprised of illegal aliens to be cause for alarm.

It still doesn't make the rest of the non-imprisoned population legal residents, as your logic states.

 

[Phil Elmore]

That's a non sequitur.

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

Not as it ties back to the previous fallacy.

Thanks for the input.

 

[Kacey]

No, there's nothing fallacious about it. If you don't consider such high percentages of the populations cited to be a cause for concern, that's great. I happen to think that having one third of our prison population comprised of illegal aliens to be cause for alarm.

If you didn't send the book title, then thank you to whomever did; as I said, it wasn't signed, so I don't know who did send it.

As far as the logic you cite, I too find it to be fallacious. Citing the prison population as your 'cause for concern' leaves out all of the people who manage to avoid prison - an outcome enhanced by money and position, neither of which are particularly associated with being an illegal immigrant. As I said above, if you could show that 30% of people accused of such crimes were illegal immigrants, then that might be more indicative of illegal immigrants being the problem. However, the prison populations have historically been skewed towards poor, minority, undereducated, and other low social classes. For example:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]In 1994, one in three black men between the ages of 20-29 were in prison, jail, on probation or on parole. In 1995, 47% of state and federal inmates were black, the largest group behind bars. Black men were 7 times more likely than white men to be in prison. In 1993, Asians, Pacific Islanders, American Indians, and Alaskan natives made up 2% of prison population. Native Americans are 10 times more likely than whites to be imprisoned. Latinos are the fastest growing group behind bars. Between 1985 and 1995 Latinos jumped from 10% of all state and federal inmates to 18%. In 1993, whites made up 74% of the general population, but only 36% of federal and state prison inmates. In 1970, there were 5,600 women in federal and state prisons. By 1996 there were 75,000. 60% of that population are black and Latina. In 1993, the overall incarceration rate for juveniles was 221 per 1000,000; for Latino youth it was 481 per 100,000; and for black youth it was 810 per 100,000.
Source: http://www.prisons.org/racism.htm
[/FONT]
​

Another primary source for the prison population comes from unsocialized young males, as described athttp://www.aei.org/publications/pubID.23313/pub_detail.asp

The underclass has been growing. The crime rate has been dropping for thirteen years. But the proportion of young men who grow up unsocialized and who, given the opportunity, commit crimes, has not.

​

A rough operational measure of criminality is the percentage of the population under correctional supervision. This is less sensitive to changes in correctional fashion than imprisonment rates, since people convicted of a crime get some sort of correctional supervision regardless of the political climate. When Ronald Reagan took office, 0.9 percent of the population was under correctional supervision. That figure has continued to rise. When crime began to fall in 1992, it stood at 1.9 percent. In 2003 it was 2.4 percent. Crime has dropped, but criminality has continued to rise.

​

[section of article omitted]
​

Why has the proportion of unsocialized young males risen so relentlessly? In large part, I would argue, because the proportion of young males who have grown up without fathers has also risen relentlessly. The indicator here is the illegitimacy ratio--the percentage of live births that occur to single women. It was a minuscule 4 percent in the early 1950s, and it has risen substantially in every subsequent decade. The ratio reached the 25 percent milestone in 1988 and the 33 percent milestone in 1999. As of 2003, the figure was 35 percent--of all births, including whites. The black illegitimacy ratio in 2003 was 68 percent. By way of comparison, the illegitimacy ratio that caused Daniel Patrick Moynihan to proclaim the breakdown of the black family in the early 1960s was 24 percent.​

Does this mean that we should close our borders to members of all of these groups as well? Following the logic you cite, all minorities, poor people, illegitimate males, and all other groups over-represented in the prison population should be prevented from entering the country, because they statistically more likely to commit crimes, without regard to any of the other factors which might affect the statistical makeup of the prison population. I find this logic narrow, short-sighted, and demonstrative of an attempt to validate a decision made based on opinion rather than fact. Certainly, you are welcome to any opinion you choose to hold; likewise, I am welcome to mine, whether it disagrees with yours or not.

 

[Phil Elmore]

Prison populations are "skewed" because people don't commit crimes in direct proportion to their representation in society. Some groups commit more crimes than others. It is this notion that there must be some inherent unfairness to prison convictions that is the fallacy. Believe it or not, law enforcement officials generally try to find the person who did it when a crime is perpetrated. Mistakes certainly are made, but not the absurdly large scale that advocates of this worldview -- this fallacious view of an institutionalized racism -- contend.

On top of that, you've defeated your own argument; if you believe accusations are inherently more accurate than convictions, you need only look to the statistic I cited concerning the 95% of outstanding homicide warrants targeting illegal aliens according to the City Journal report.

No one is arguing for CLOSING the borders. I am arguing for the removal of ILLEGAL ALIENS. I am arguing for the enforcement of EXISTING CITIZENZSHIP LAWS. I argue this because there is a demonstrable link between increased crime rates/increased financial burdens and toleration of illegal aliens within society.

 

[Andrew Green]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Native Americans are 10 times more likely than whites to be imprisoned.[/FONT]
​

​

Does this mean that we should close our borders to members of all of these groups as well?

LOL

Yup, that does it. No more Native American immigrants, they can stay in there own country!

Sorry, couldn't help but make the joke

Guess in a sense all us white folk are "illegal aliens" if you look back far enough though

 

[modarnis]

It still doesn't make the rest of the non-imprisoned population legal residents, as your logic states.

I think your misreading Mr. Elmore's quote. It referred to incarcerated persons, not the population as a whole. So if 30% of people incarcerated in prison are illegal aliens, it is simple math that 70% of incarcerated persons are not illegal aliens. It did not seem to apply to any population of people outside prisons.

Of course if you were to weight the statistic relative to how few illegal aliens exist as a percentage of the population as a whole, it would appear to be a staggering number. It is skewed somewhat because Immigration and Customs Enforcement ICE, formerly INS) often places holds or detainers on illegal aliens who are arrested, so even if they are sentenced to shorter sentences or probation, they still remain in prison while the immigration issues are resolved, so the numbers are somwhat inflated for reasons outside the normal day to day of the criminal justice system

 

[modarnis]

If you didn't send the book title, then thank you to whomever did; as I said, it wasn't signed, so I don't know who did send it.

As far as the logic you cite, I too find it to be fallacious. Citing the prison population as your 'cause for concern' leaves out all of the people who manage to avoid prison - an outcome enhanced by money and position, neither of which are particularly associated with being an illegal immigrant.

I sent you the book title. I thought I signed it, but whatever. Way too much in that book to digest into a few blurbs. Put it on your reading list for the future.


This may warrant a thread split. I don't mean to gank the thread, but as a prosecutor I find it highly offensive to think that people really believe money and position buy people out of jail. Cases are assessed here in my office on their merits. Accused persons are dealt with based on strength of cases, their record or lack of record, and factors like avialability or willingness of witnesses and victims to testify etc. Short of really serious crimes (murder, rape, assaults with guns etc, nobody goes to jail as a sentenced person for their first offense. People who are convicted have in greater than 95% of cases exhausted all non conviction diversionary options, probably had a conviction or 2 or 3 with probation and special conditions as the disposition. While cases are processed through, they may be held in jail unable to post a bond, but in the grand scheme of things, that is for a relatively short period of time. A person's color, country of origin, or primary language are irellevant to the outcome of criminal cases

Are poverty and lack of education factors in why people may choose criminal behavior? yes Does that translate into the bogeyman notion of selective enforcement or unfairness in the criminal justice system? No


Back to the original topic

 

[Kacey]

Prison populations are "skewed" because people don't commit crimes in direct proportion to their representation in society.

This is exactly the point I made, and you ignored - else you would not continue to insist that illegal immigrants must be stopped from entering the country because they commit crimes in larger numbers and are therefore dangerous. Thank you for understanding my point.

Having now admitted that prison populations are skewed, please explain to me why the percentage of a population in prison means that that particular population must be dangerous, and should therefore be excluded from our society entirely?

Don't get me wrong - I think that illegal immigration is indeed a problem; I simply think that at least as much of the responsibility for the problem rests on our social system as on the immigrants. I don't think that a new set of laws is required, however; I think that we need to enforce the laws we already have. Writing new laws and saying "Look, we fixed it" is a favorite, but fallacious, method of lawmakers who want to seem effective when they're not. After all, they wrote the laws that should prevent the problem; the fact that society as a whole continues to allow the problem to happen, because breaking certain laws is okay (or, at least, viewed less negatively than others - think about speeding as an example) is thus no longer the fault of the lawmaker - s/he can now pass responsibility on to everyone else with a theoretically clean conscience; s/he has passed laws that will fix everything, and the problem (theoretically) no longer exists. This attitude of pass the buck, in which everyone else is responsible, is what allows this problem to continue - not the laws that have already been written. Enforce the current laws properly, and then see if there is still a problem.