The perils of cross training

[Cyriacus]

How did we get from 'cross training is rubbish but I'm good' to discussing SD moves?

Because training involves moves. Or something like that.

 

[Tez3]

Because training involves moves. Or something like that.

Verry inter-resting but stoopid...dear me I bet you are all too young to remember Rowan and Martins Laugh In!!

 

[K-man]

Verry inter-resting but stoopid...dear me I bet you are all too young to remember Rowan and Martins Laugh In!!

Now that really takes me back to university days when we used to sit up studying half the night. They used to have the 'comedy spot' every hour for about 3 or 4 minutes. Rowan and Martin were frequent visitors. Always good for a laugh ... A little bit like some contributors to MT really. :lfao:

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

How did we get from 'cross training is rubbish but I'm good' to discussing SD moves?

Because certain skill will be needed to handle certain situation. That "certain skill" will require "cross training".

 

[MJS]

Some martial artists feel the need to cross train for various reasons, usually it’s because they want to be as well rounded as they can in order to compensate for the incompleteness of some of the arts. Some arts only focus mainly on grappling (BJJ, Judo etc.) whilst some arts only focus on striking (Kickboxing, Muay Thai etc.) Some arts focus only on hands (e.g. boxing) whilst some arts are predominately kicking (e.g. Olympic TKD). So these martial artists mix and match from these styles in order to develop a complete range of skills. This is more prevalent in the competitive martial arts, especially in the UFC. When doing this fighters will work on a specific set of skills, one at a time, in different parts of their training regimen and then put them all together when they compete.

I'll agree with part of this. Speaking for myself, I cross train because, IMHO, while the various arts out there tend to touch on a number of areas, if one really wants to get better in a specific area or expand upon something, then yes, cross training is necessary. I do it and I enjoy it. I didn't start until I was a brown belt in Kenpo. I started doing some BJJ. IMO, while Kenpo addresses takedown attempts, I wanted to learn how to better defend myself, should I end up there. Also, while Kenpo addresses weapons, I began Arnis, as the FMAs, are, IMO, second to none, when it comes to effective weapon work.

As for the mixing and matching as you call it...perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but it seems to be you're hinting that one who cross trains, puts a bunch of things together and creates their own art. While that may be the case with some, it is not the case with the vast majority.

Other martial artists will study more than one art at a time whilst others will learn one art for a while and then change to something else with the aim to get as many black belts as they can. When studying 2 arts that have similar techniques it is even more difficult as you would have to keep changing the way you do them after each time you change between classes. Each of these approaches carries with them their own set of limitations. The classical approach is to choose one martial art and stick with that for life. The main problem in doing this is it can often be difficult to find a complete martial art. No martial art can be absolutely complete, if they were then there would be no need to evolve the art or improve the techniques.

Painting everyone with the same brush I see. Well, for me, I could give a **** less about rank. Rank, IMO, is simply a way to show,visably, ones progress. I've seen BBs who suck, so, the rank thing goes out the window! I'm not now and never will be a belt collector. In fact, given the arts I've trained in, I have 2 BBs...Kenpo and Arnis. I really never had a desire to test for rank in BJJ. Since leaving Kenpo, I've begun Kyokyshin, which I have a blue belt in. Again, for ME, I'm interested in training, not collecting belts. When my teachers feel I'm ready, they'll test me, but I don't ask for promotions.

The problem with mixing and matching different styles instead of concentrating on just one art is that it is much more difficult to develop a reliable set of skills; you just get an average of many skills (jack of all trades, master of none). Just consider this; if you required brain surgery would you rather have the surgeon operating on you to have 20 years of experience consisting of 5 years as a heart surgeon, 5 years as an optometrist, 5 years as an orthopedic surgeon and 5 years as a brain surgeon or would you rather the surgeon have 20 years of experience only as a brain surgeon.

Perhaps that is the case with you, but not everyone! In the years that I've been training, I've never had a problem with my skill set. Again, I'm interested in training, not collecting belts. I'm in no rush...the learning journey is endless. And since you mention doctors, I take it you're against a specialist? You know, the general docs have an understanding of the body, but if I went to my doc complaining of pains in my chest, odds are very high that he's going to send me to a cardiologist.

The problem with changing martial arts every time you get a black belt to gain black belts in as many styles as possible is that you will only get to learn the basics of any martial art. It would be like only reading the first chapter of every book, sure you will get a lot of reading done but you will never get the full story. The true essence of a martial art only begins after you get to black belt. This is where you get to start to perfect your technique and learn the advanced concepts. This does not show much loyalty to the martial art, the instructors or the masters in that school. It is also a selfish attitude, when you earn your black belt you do not do it on your own. A lot of time, effort and patience on the part of your instructors go into teaching you the art in the hope that you can learn and stay with the school and make the art stronger. If you decide that the art is not for you at some point and leave then that is one thing but to have the secret intention right from the start to leave after black belt then that can be like a slap in the face to your instructor. That would be like getting a job for the sole purpose of learning the equipment and procedures and leaving as soon as you are finished and working for the competition.

LOL! This is your opinion, not the standard for all that crosstrain. Just because I'm a BB in Arnis, doesnt mean that I've stopped training or stopped learning. Yes, I still train with my teacher, and I'm always learning and improving.

It is perfectly fine to mix and match martial arts if that is what you want to do, it does not mean that you will not be effective or successful in the martial arts. MMA fighters do this very well but it is not the only way to become well rounded. By choosing the right martial art for you that is as complete as possible you can learn the most advanced concepts and adopt the art as a way of life. When making a lifelong commitment to a martial art there is nothing wrong with learning specific techniques from other martial arts that you see and getting different perspectives. For beginners this must be in consultation with your instructor. If your instructor tells you that the technique is inadequate then the technique must be discarded. If your instructor tells you that the technique is useful then the technique can then be incorporated into the art. You must do this because your instructor will have more knowledge and experience than you. If you were previously from another martial art and know more about martial arts than your instructor then he or she will still know more about their art than you. For black belts and instructors who have a lot of experience then you can usually judge for yourself the value of any technique you can use.

Umm...ok...lol.

I was fortunate to have picked a martial art that that is a complete art headed by one of the 12 original masters of Tae Kwon Do who personally conducts every black belt grading and I see every 3 months. There are also his brothers, one a 9th dan grandmaster and the other is a 7th dan who is also one of the 12 original masters. I feel no need to cross train because my art includes hands and feet (~40-60% hands), ground defence, joint locks and defence against multiple attackers and weapons and trains to defend against other martial arts and not just itself. But that is not to say that I do not learn techniques from other martial arts that I see here and there. Personally I still use many of the techniques I learned in Hap Ki Do, such as the break falls and joint locks and at least one kick. I once saw a Karate demonstration and saw a defence against a headlock that I have incorporated into my repertoire as well as a defence against a hip throw that I saw in a Judo video.

So if cross training is your thing and it works well for you then go for it but also be aware of its limitations. If you choose to concentrate on only one martial art for a lifelong commitment then do not be afraid to seek a wider perspective.

Yup, and as I said above, many arts cover alot...this isn't just limited to what you do. But, as I said, if you want to expand in a certain area, looking outside the box is necessary.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Another option is to wrap one of your legs behind his and get your hip behind his, lift your arms up as high as you can and rapidly twist your hips. It takes them completely off balance and is quite easy to do quickly.

Get you partner to grab you as described and quickly pull you back and down. You just will not be able to do what you are saying.

This is the technique I was referring to, it seem to work for some of the commenters just fine.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This clip belongs to "stand up grappling" that most styles have solution for it. Today the environment has changed. Peole won't pick you up any more. People will drag you down instead.

I came from "stand up grappling" background. The 1st time that my opponent dragged me down was a shocking experience to me. In "standing up grappling", if any 2 points of your body besides your feet touching the ground, that round is over. If I drag you down, I just give you a free round and nobody will be studpid enough to do that. Now the "sport" is still "spot", but the rules has changed.

Today, we have to solve a different set of problems that may be different from what people had to deal with 50 years ago. Do we like the change? May be not! It's beyond our comfortable zone. Do we have to change? Of course we do. We just don't have choice.

 

[Tez3]

'Stand up grappling' an ancient style here, it varies on which county you are in but this is the Cornish style.

 

[K-man]

'Stand up grappling' an ancient style here, it varies on which county you are in but this is the Cornish style.

As you said above ... ver-ry inter-resting!

Looks like a sport for gentlemen. :asian:

 

[Tez3]

As you said above ... ver-ry inter-resting!

Looks like a sport for gentlemen. :asian:

There's Devon, Cumberland and Northumbria as well as Scottish Backhold of this stand up style of grappling. While it is a sport I imagine that attacking any of these gentlemen would be a mistake!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Here is another stand up wrestling.

 

[Flying Crane]

Because certain skill will be needed to handle certain situation. That "certain skill" will require "cross training".

sometimes, yes. More often, no. A whole lot of what might come at you can be handled with a very small body of material. IF you really know your material.

If you believe you need something distinct for everything that might come at you, then I suggest you don't know your stuff very well.

 

[Flying Crane]

There's Devon, Cumberland and Northumbria as well as Scottish Backhold of this stand up style of grappling. While it is a sport I imagine that attacking any of these gentlemen would be a mistake!

but can I get a BELT in it???

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you believe you need something distinct for everything that might come at you, then I suggest you don't know your stuff very well.

I don't train different styles to learn different ways to throw the same punch. I train different styles because there are something that I want but I can't find in my current style.

In your opinion, how much is enough?

 

[Flying Crane]

In your opinion, how much is enough?

if you really understand it, very little.

Scripted defenses for specific attacks are something that I do not see as necessary. An understanding of how to harness the power of the full body will give you useful insights on how to deal with whatever comes your way.

 

[frank raud]

So.........if I understand the OP correctly, the best way to cross-train is to have your instructor do it for you?

 

[Tez3]

but can I get a BELT in it???

A belt round the earhole I imagine...

 

[oftheherd1]

This clip belongs to "stand up grappling" that most styles have solution for it. Today the environment has changed. Peole won't pick you up any more. People will drag you down instead.

I came from "stand up grappling" background. The 1st time that my opponent dragged me down was a shocking experience to me. In "standing up grappling", if any 2 points of your body besides your feet touching the ground, that round is over. If I drag you down, I just give you a free round and nobody will be studpid enough to do that. Now the "sport" is still "spot", but the rules has changed.

Today, we have to solve a different set of problems that may be different from what people had to deal with 50 years ago. Do we like the change? May be not! It's beyond our comfortable zone. Do we have to change? Of course we do. We just don't have choice.

Could you describe the solution most styles have? If you mean that people will normally drag you down, that would first mean you stood there and let them get the good grip they wanted, and second, that you just continue your defense on the ground. One thing the video didn't emphacize was the lifting up on the victims arms. That will usually also distract an opponent as they attempt to ensure or restore their hold. That gives the victim more time to move, the victim moving suddenly to one side or the other again effects the balance of the attacker.

Is it a guarentee to work every time? No more than any other technique I suppose.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

So.........if I understand the OP correctly, the best way to cross-train is to have your instructor do it for you?

Actually...I would kind of agree with this statement. If someone else went through and combined what they would consider the 'best' of each style they trained, then taught that to you, you have both a quicker way to crosstrain, and an oppurtunity to refine their combination of arts. The only real downside is that what they consider the best of each style they trained may not be what you would have considered the best of each style, and you don't really get a choice int he styles that were crosstrained.

 

[Guy Preston]

My definition of "complete" is to be able to handle all situations. That's just one of many valid tests. It just proves that "complete" system does not exist on this planet.

If you can drag your opponent down but you can't handle a punch to the head, your style is not complete either.

I think using that definition of complete, will mislead you...

Each art is different, with different specialities, but also how you use the tools learned within your martial art will be different.

Looking at defending from a number of situations as you suggested, you could study purely strikes, nothing else, no throws, no chokes, no locks, just strikes.... I bet you could use or learn to use one of those strikes to deal with pretty much any attack that could be thrown at you....Is that a complete art?...


I think any art is complete, if it accomplishes what it's supposed to, this ultimately means that the test of completeness will change depending on the goals of the art.... does a swordsman need to learn kicks to the head to make his sword art complete? Likewise, does a kickboxer need to learn how to wield a katana for his art to be complete?

Within any art, when people criticise it for being incomplete, they often have an incomplete understanding of the system...