The perils of cross training

[Kong Soo Do]

And complete is also a bit of a misnomer. It's a bit easier to talk about specialization (as in who is better at what). For example tkd may have punches but nowhere near the level of boxing. It may have elbows and knees but nowhere near Muay Thai. It may do some grappling but its clinch is not as specialized as muay Thai or wrestling, its takedowns as specialized as judo or wrestling, its ground game as specialized as judo or bjj.

Every art has their speciality and really if you actually want to learn to cover grapple you're better off going to a grappling art than half assing it in another art.

It all depends upon the focus of the art. You mentioned TKD vs. boxing for punching, vs. Muay Thai for elbows and knees and vs. wrestling for takedowns. If we're talking about TKD as a sport then we can compare it with boxing, muay thai and wrestling as they are all sports as well. Each of those sport arts are indeed specialized and therefore not complete in that they don't cover elements of other arts. If the focus of the art is on SD however, it is a very different ball game. One can train in TKD or Karate or Kong Soo Do or whatever label one chooses and have a very complete art that covers all the bases i.e. stand up, ground, weapons, throwing, locking etc. This doesn't mean that a student or even an instructor is going to become a ninja master in each and every area. We all gravitate towards segments of the arts that work best for us. I honestly could not tell you how many uses-of-force I've had over the years. I stopped counting at three hundred and that was a decade ago. In all that time I've never kicked anyone. Not even a low kick. I've knee spiked the crap out of people...literally. I've punched (soft body targets). I've used elbows, forearms and edge-of-hand strikes. And I've used locks and throws far more often than any of the above. Locking is my personal specialty. But the point is that the art, if taught in this manner, can offer a full venue for the practitioner to learn and then specialize within the art itself. I can teach realistic kicking for self-defense even if I don't use it myself. I know the technique(s), I know the SD types of kicks. I know the targets and targets of opportunity. I just don't kick people in a real fight. If the art isn't taught this way, then one would need to go outside the art to fill in the gaps that they perceive exist.

Kinda funny really, I could just as easily use the term TKD instead of KSD...yet I fight like I'm inside a phone booth

 

[Cyriacus]

After getting married is it a betrayal of your wife if you go out and have sex with another woman?

For some instructors perhaps. For some people its all about them, they just want to get what they can get out of it and never even think of sticking around and helping anyone else.

I just discovered the multi quote.

And for some instructors, its all about them.

 

[RTKDCMB]

And for some instructors, its all about them.

I agree with you there.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Here is a simple test to see whether your style is "complete" or not.

- Your opponent gets behind you.
- Both of his hands surround your waist.
- He pulls you back down with his body weight.
- His back is on the ground. Your back is on his chest.
- His legs are wrapping around your waist.
- His arms are choking on your neck.

What will you do at that moment? How do you prevent that from happening?

There are simple answers to most of these, here are only some:

- Your opponent gets behind you.
Turn around and/or strike

- Both of his hands surround your waist.
Backward elbow, Kick back with the heel and break the knee (my instructor did that to someone that grabbed him from behind in a car park, stopped the guy in his tracks) or any one of a dozen or more self defence techniques that any decent TMA teahces every day.

- He pulls you back down with his body weight.
Things would have to have been starting to go wrong at this point. Drop your body weight further, reach between your legs and grab one of his grab , go into a forward stance (may not work in the direction of the front leg but will force them to change tactics slightly and delay them enough) or a combination of these, I will explore this further in a future training session, thanks for giving me an idea.

- His back is on the ground. Your back is on his chest.
If you were unsuccessful with the above you have the groin grab, elbow, turn over or sit up before he grabs you, if you can reach his foot, break his ankle, backwards headbutt.
- His legs are wrapping around your waist.
Block his attempts to do this with your legs and/or put your legs over his and keep them on the ground.

- His arms are choking on your neck.
It's almost over if you get to this point but you can still grab and break his fingers or wrist. By pulling down on the arm into your chest that's across you neck you can give yourself just enough to breath, the arm pushing down on your head negates this a bit.

It is much easier thinking of these things when you are physically doing them than when you are just thinking about them.

These last 3 points go together, a defence against a hold does not start at the hold itself it starts at the attempt. This little test is not a test of completeness it is only a test of defending against this particular hold.

When I say a complete art I am refering to an art that has a full range of techniques for different scenarios not one that has every technique you could possibly ever use, that would be quite impossible.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Ridiculous analogy. If my instructor asked for anything resembling the marriage vows, I'd run for the door.

If he were asking for sex, I'd run backwards...

You're not really good at analogies, perhaps some other method of supporting your position would be a better choice?

I'd run too.

If you spend time learning how to use a hammer well, is it a slap in the face to your carpentry instructor when you pick up a crescent wrench?
If you spend time learning how to rock out on an electric guitar, is it selfish when you go next door to learn how to play a tender ballad on the celtic harp?
After getting a degree in graphic arts, is it a betrayal of your teachers if you go take some business classes in an attempt to become financially sucessful with your skills?

These analogies are not that good either.
If you use a crescent wrench to bang in nails or a hammer to turn a bolt there's something wrong.
I find musical instruments don't usually care what you do.
Graphic arts and business classes are as different as martial arts and basketball

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There are simple answers to most of these,

Here is a bit different situation:

- Your opponent gets behind you.
- One of his hands surrounds your waist.
- Another of his hands grabs below your knee joint.
- He picks you up.
- He throws you over his head and behind him.

Both situations will require some training in:

- How to move behind your opponent's back.
- How to prevent your opponent from moving to your back.

In the previous example, some ground skill will be needed. In this example, some skill that prevent your opponent from picking you up will be needed. Also some safe landing skill will be needed.

Examples like these can easily examine whether certain training in certain system is emphasized enough or not.

 

[chinto]

ok here is my take on this. for what it is worth, and that provably is not even the value of 2 one cent peace US. before you go and train in something else, I would suggest you achieve at least a high brown belt or better yet a shodan or so in your primary art. then continue to train in your primary art, and add the new ones training. you should NOT figure a shodan (first dan black belt ) is a goal, it is just where you will really start to learn.

 

[Cyriacus]

I'd run too.

If you spend time learning how to use a hammer well, is it a slap in the face to your carpentry instructor when you pick up a crescent wrench?
If you spend time learning how to rock out on an electric guitar, is it selfish when you go next door to learn how to play a tender ballad on the celtic harp?
After getting a degree in graphic arts, is it a betrayal of your teachers if you go take some business classes in an attempt to become financially sucessful with your skills?

These analogies are not that good either.
If you use a crescent wrench to bang in nails or a hammer to turn a bolt there's something wrong.
I find musical instruments don't usually care what you do.
Graphic arts and business classes are as different as martial arts and basketball

And as different as martial arts and your analogies.

 

[K-man]

There are simple answers to most of these, here are only some:

- Your opponent gets behind you.
Turn around and/or strike.

The question is, how did this situation arise. Two obvious options. Firstly that the attack was unforeseen. Secondly your attacker either passed you or turned you. In the first situation there is the element of surprise. Until you feel the attacker you can't do anything. In the later situation you will have probably been hit before the hands go to the waist. So can you turn and strike? Arguable.

- Both of his hands surround your waist.
Backward elbow, Kick back with the heel and break the knee (my instructor did that to someone that grabbed him from behind in a car park, stopped the guy in his tracks) or any one of a dozen or more self defence techniques that any decent TMA teahces every day.

Depends on whether the arms are pinned. Can you kick back? Yes, but if I grab you from behind I will break your balance to make this unlikely. (Personally, I would be trying to stomp on the foot but a lot of thugs wear steel caps.) Shin rake? Possibly. Groin grab or strike? You have to be quick and it depends if the arms are pinned. Head butt? Maybe, but I would be expecting that. Elbow strike? Depends how you are held.

- He pulls you back down with his body weight.
Things would have to have been starting to go wrong at this point. Drop your body weight further, reach between your legs and grab one of his grab , go into a forward stance (may not work in the direction of the front leg but will force them to change tactics slightly and delay them enough) or a combination of these, I will explore this further in a future training session, thanks for giving me an idea.

I see this 'reach between the legs' often. It just doesn't work against a determined attacker, especially if he is pulling you back and down. It also won't even be an option if your arms are pinned.

- His back is on the ground. Your back is on his chest.
If you were unsuccessful with the above you have the groin grab, elbow, turn over or sit up before he grabs you, if you can reach his foot, break his ankle, backwards headbutt.

With his timing he has pulled you down on top of him. Once again if your arms are pinned you have less options. Groin grab, not going to happen. Elbows? Possibly especially if his grip slackens as he is going to ground. Turn over etc, not an option because he already has hold of you. Reaching his foot? Do you have arms that long? Head butt? To my mind the best option but if I were bringing you down I would probably have one arm around your neck by the time we hit the ground.

- His legs are wrapping around your waist.
Block his attempts to do this with your legs and/or put your legs over his and keep them on the ground.

Might be possible and in a sporting contest may be viable. In a real fight I doubt the guy is going to bother with the legs.

- His arms are choking on your neck.
It's almost over if you get to this point but you can still grab and break his fingers or wrist. By pulling down on the arm into your chest that's across you neck you can give yourself just enough to breath, the arm pushing down on your head negates this a bit.

Have you ever tried to grab someone's fingers in this situation? I have you in a rear naked choke and you have 3 seconds. My hands are behind you. You must get one hand up to relieve the pressure on the arteries and that leaves you just one hand to use real quick. At this stage I would suggest it's 'goodnight Irene'. (And, from that position you will never break anyone's wrist.)

It is much easier thinking of these things when you are physically doing them than when you are just thinking about them.

These last 3 points go together, a defence against a hold does not start at the hold itself it starts at the attempt. This little test is not a test of completeness it is only a test of defending against this particular hold.

This is very true but I feel the options you outlined above will have little chance of success in this scenario. Like you, I will investigate it further next week at training.

When I say a complete art I am refering to an art that has a full range of techniques for different scenarios not one that has every technique you could possibly ever use, that would be quite impossible.

I took it that this was a sequence, not individual scenarios. I think Kung fu Wang was very clever in his choice of scenario. :asian:

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I'd run too.

If you spend time learning how to use a hammer well, is it a slap in the face to your carpentry instructor when you pick up a crescent wrench?
If you spend time learning how to rock out on an electric guitar, is it selfish when you go next door to learn how to play a tender ballad on the celtic harp?
After getting a degree in graphic arts, is it a betrayal of your teachers if you go take some business classes in an attempt to become financially sucessful with your skills?

These analogies are not that good either.
If you use a crescent wrench to bang in nails or a hammer to turn a bolt there's something wrong.
I find musical instruments don't usually care what you do.
Graphic arts and business classes are as different as martial arts and basketball

Thank you very much for helping to make my point.

Yes, if you use a wrench to bang nails or a hammer to turn a bolt then something is wrong. Likewise if you use Kali to address a problem best handled by BJJ or vice versa.

Musical instruments don't care what you do. Neither do martial arts. If you were to quit TKD tomorrow and take up Tai Chi, the art of TKD would not shed a single tear.

Graphic arts and business classes are about as different as traditional kenjutsu and Olympic TKD.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I took it that this was a sequence, not individual scenarios. I think Kung fu Wang was very clever in his choice of scenario. :asian:

I think you are correct. That whole sequence is one attack and it takes only a second or two from start to finish. If the attacker is skilled, then the suggested defenses are unlikely to work.

 

[sopraisso]

I showed up late and people have already said what I wanted to... but at least I seem to have discovered the funny part of MT.

Enviado de meu GT-I9300 usando o Tapatalk 2

 

[Cyriacus]

I think you are correct. That whole sequence is one attack and it takes only a second or two from start to finish. If the attacker is skilled, then the suggested defenses are unlikely to work.

Plus, its a very simple attack that isnt the result of a skillset. Its basic stuff.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I took it that this was a sequence, not individual scenarios. I think Kung fu Wang was very clever in his choice of scenario. :asian:

I also took it as a sequence, you can defend at the first stage but if you are not quick enough you might have to start when he drops his body weight or when he get you to the ground afterthe other options are no longer viable.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Personally, I would be trying to stomp on the foot but a lot of thugs wear steel caps.) Shin rake? Possibly. Groin grab or strike? You have to be quick and it depends if the arms are pinned. Head butt? Maybe, but I would be expecting that. Elbow strike? Depends how you are held.

The foot stomp and shin rake are some of the options I would use as well, if they are wearing steel caps then you could still stomp on their instep. Grabbing the groin only works if they are not wearing tight jeans, if they are wearing loose shorts you can grab, squeeze and pull. You can still produce a fair amount of impact on the groin using a knife hand strike with your arms pinned. For a head butt his head has to be at the right height and position. Another option is to wrap one of your legs behind his and get your hip behind his, lift your arms up as high as you can and rapidly twist your hips. It takes them completely off balance and is quite easy to do quickly.

I see this 'reach between the legs' often. It just doesn't work against a determined attacker, especially if he is pulling you back and down. It also won't even be an option if your arms are pinned.
To do this you sometimes have to distract them first with a head butt or groin strike. If your arms are pinned you can still grab his leg if it is close, if you go into a deep squat you can reach the ground and reach behind you a good 30-40cm which can be enough to reach the leg.

Reaching his foot? Do you have arms that long?
That's for if you can break his grip around your waist and sit up.

Have you ever tried to grab someone's fingers in this situation? I have you in a rear naked choke and you have 3 seconds. My hands are behind you. You must get one hand up to relieve the pressure on the arteries and that leaves you just one hand to use real quick. At this stage I would suggest it's 'goodnight Irene'. (And, from that position you will never break anyone's wrist.)

Fingers are a target of opportunity, just grab the first one you can get a hold of if you have time and they are exposed. I'd probably mainly use that during standing holds Breaking the wrist would require a fair bit of strength, leverage and a short sharp movement. You would do it after getting one hand up to relieve the pressure near the end of the forearm rotating his arm down towards your chest, grab the thumb with the other hand, continue to rotate his arm and push back with your palm quickly (this is if his wrist is across your throat). For the rear naked choke (also called a sleeper hold I believe) you would probably have to use your free hand and grab his thumb to break his grip. If he has a good hold on you it would be because you have failed to prevent him from applying it and you would be wishing Irene to have a good night.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Plus, its a very simple attack that isnt the result of a skillset. Its basic stuff.

That was why I said it wasnt the best choice. It only tests if you know one specific basic thing, and doesnt test other attacks not in the sequence, or anything more advanced.

 

[Tez3]

Personally, I would be trying to stomp on the foot but a lot of thugs wear steel caps.) Shin rake? Possibly. Groin grab or strike? You have to be quick and it depends if the arms are pinned. Head butt? Maybe, but I would be expecting that. Elbow strike? Depends how you are held.

The foot stomp and shin rake are some of the options I would use as well, if they are wearing steel caps then you could still stomp on their instep. Grabbing the groin only works if they are not wearing tight jeans, if they are wearing loose shorts you can grab, squeeze and pull. You can still produce a fair amount of impact on the groin using a knife hand strike with your arms pinned. For a head butt his head has to be at the right height and position. Another option is to wrap one of your legs behind his and get your hip behind his, lift your arms up as high as you can and rapidly twist your hips. It takes them completely off balance and is quite easy to do quickly.

I see this 'reach between the legs' often. It just doesn't work against a determined attacker, especially if he is pulling you back and down. It also won't even be an option if your arms are pinned.
To do this you sometimes have to distract them first with a head butt or groin strike. If your arms are pinned you can still grab his leg if it is close, if you go into a deep squat you can reach the ground and reach behind you a good 30-40cm which can be enough to reach the leg.

Reaching his foot? Do you have arms that long?
That's for if you can break his grip around your waist and sit up.

Have you ever tried to grab someone's fingers in this situation? I have you in a rear naked choke and you have 3 seconds. My hands are behind you. You must get one hand up to relieve the pressure on the arteries and that leaves you just one hand to use real quick. At this stage I would suggest it's 'goodnight Irene'. (And, from that position you will never break anyone's wrist.)

Fingers are a target of opportunity, just grab the first one you can get a hold of if you have time and they are exposed. I'd probably mainly use that during standing holds Breaking the wrist would require a fair bit of strength, leverage and a short sharp movement. You would do it after getting one hand up to relieve the pressure near the end of the forearm rotating his arm down towards your chest, grab the thumb with the other hand, continue to rotate his arm and push back with your palm quickly (this is if his wrist is across your throat). For the rear naked choke (also called a sleeper hold I believe) you would probably have to use your free hand and grab his thumb to break his grip. If he has a good hold on you it would be because you have failed to prevent him from applying it and you would be wishing Irene to have a good night.

That's very kind of you, I always have good nights.

 

[Blindside]

Yes, if you use a wrench to bang nails or a hammer to turn a bolt then something is wrong. Likewise if you use Kali to address a problem best handled by BJJ or vice versa.

Heh, I thought about answering this earlier with the "Kali answer" to the rear naked with hooks in as: "draw knife, stab into his femoral, transfer hands, stab into other femoral, bet that his bleed out is faster than your choke out."

Wanna hear what the answer to a single leg is? Stand there with a knife out and say "really?"
See, Kali is a complete system.

The above is an exaggeration of course, though admittedly when you talk kali and tools, "knife" comes up a lot.

 

[K-man]

Personally, I would be trying to stomp on the foot but a lot of thugs wear steel caps.) Shin rake? Possibly. Groin grab or strike? You have to be quick and it depends if the arms are pinned. Head butt? Maybe, but I would be expecting that. Elbow strike? Depends how you are held.

The foot stomp and shin rake are some of the options I would use as well, if they are wearing steel caps then you could still stomp on their instep. Grabbing the groin only works if they are not wearing tight jeans, if they are wearing loose shorts you can grab, squeeze and pull. You can still produce a fair amount of impact on the groin using a knife hand strike with your arms pinned. For a head butt his head has to be at the right height and position.

if the guy has steel caps you will not have a real shot at the instep.

If I grab you from behind with the intention of pulling you back and down you will not get a shot at the groin either. Your arms move forward by reflex and by the time you recover you will be on the ground. And, that's assuming the arms aren't pinned.

Another option is to wrap one of your legs behind his and get your hip behind his, lift your arms up as high as you can and rapidly twist your hips. It takes them completely off balance and is quite easy to do quickly.

Get you partner to grab you as described and quickly pull you back and down. You just will not be able to do what you are saying.

I see this 'reach between the legs' often. It just doesn't work against a determined attacker, especially if he is pulling you back and down. It also won't even be an option if your arms are pinned.
To do this you sometimes have to distract them first with a head butt or groin strike. If your arms are pinned you can still grab his leg if it is close, if you go into a deep squat you can reach the ground and reach behind you a good 30-40cm which can be enough to reach the leg.

Sorry. IMHO this just ain't gonna happen.

Reaching his foot? Do you have arms that long?
That's for if you can break his grip around your waist and sit up.

Unlikely.

Have you ever tried to grab someone's fingers in this situation? I have you in a rear naked choke and you have 3 seconds. My hands are behind you. You must get one hand up to relieve the pressure on the arteries and that leaves you just one hand to use real quick. At this stage I would suggest it's 'goodnight Irene'. (And, from that position you will never break anyone's wrist.)

Fingers are a target of opportunity, just grab the first one you can get a hold of if you have time and they are exposed. I'd probably mainly use that during standing holds Breaking the wrist would require a fair bit of strength, leverage and a short sharp movement. You would do it after getting one hand up to relieve the pressure near the end of the forearm rotating his arm down towards your chest, grab the thumb with the other hand, continue to rotate his arm and push back with your palm quickly (this is if his wrist is across your throat). For the rear naked choke (also called a sleeper hold I believe) you would probably have to use your free hand and grab his thumb to break his grip. If he has a good hold on you it would be because you have failed to prevent him from applying it and you would be wishing Irene to have a good night.

If you can't visualise this, get your training partner and apply the rear naked choke. Now look where your fingers are. If you are choking with the right arm, your fist is behind his ear. (The hand may be clenched or it may be like a knifehand. Either way your left hand will be covering the right hand, pulling back.) By the time you try to get hold of a finger it will be too late. There is absolutely no way you can get hold of the thumb. You might have a slight chance at the little finger but against a committed attack, realistically it isn't likely. As to "rotating his arm down towards your chest" ... that is physically impossible. You are using one severely disadvantaged arm against your attacker's two which are biomechanically in perfect position to apply maximum force.

I'm a bit worried about your understanding of reality based self defence. :asian:

 

[Tez3]

I'm a bit worried about your understanding of reality based self defence. :asian:

Yep. There are ways you can break a RNC by grabbing the foot but not in this scenerio, it's more used in BJJ as no attacker is going to sit with his legs wrapped around you! You aren't going to break a RNC choke by grabbing a finger, there's ways out of it, they have to be done quickly but they work. This isn't one of them.

So, goodnight me!!