Cross Training Rejection

[drop bear]

Depends. If they can beat people up with whatever goof they are using. Then their methods are viable. Include them.

If they get beat up then they should probably change them.

So we have some stylists that have their thing and it works. And some that don't.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The way we train it's actually great whenever someone brings something new, when it works.

More often than not with TMA guys it doesn't, either because it's unrealistic, or because they've never been trained to make it work.

We usually test stuff through free sparring or specific live full resistance drilling.

As a WC guy I have put all of what I learned through this grinder lots of times. Some emerged out the other side, some got flushed. In both cases it's a net positive.

That sounds like a fun exercise, if a bit frustrating when the thing that doesn't make it out the other side is one of your old favorites. But you go with what works, in the end.

 

[Flying Crane]

Good to see some ideas and difference perspectives flying around already!

@dunc insecurity is actually what I first thought as well, but I thought there might be more to it because he seemed fairly confident as a person (a bit full of himself to be blunt).

As an aside, I've been to some of your classes over the last few years (assuming I've got the right dunc here!) and you and your students have all been very welcoming and you seem to have a good mix of people who have trained in other arts. I think that's more towards what I have come to expect rather than the response I got from this other instructor.

@punisher73 Interesting comments, thanks for those.



Just out of interest, what is their delivery system for power development? I realise this may be more difficult to write than to show!

It's very interesting what the difference in perception is. I never really view it as a "transaction", but neither as a formal relationship. I like my instructor, chat to him a bit and see him at the odd social occasion, but generally see him in the context of learning from him, not really much more to it than that. I got a hint from the White Crane guy that he may be on the more formal relationship side by the way he said "you can't have two masters" because you can learn from more than one person. It just sounded more like a philosophical conflict.



@gpseymour This sounds a lot more like what I would expect. My instructor answers questions and explains how and why different styles do different things. I feel like anyone being disruptive and just comparing it to their own martial art instead of trying to learn is fundamentally just a bad student and you can get those without them having trained in anything else.

From my perspective I would try to go along and learn from them, which is the whole point. It would be a waste of both of our time for me to go along and not bother to learn, just questioning what he was showing me!

Regarding your comments to @punisher73, the two master part is connected to the typical relationship between a student and teacher in the traditional Chinese methods. This is a relationship that can be on the level of family, and is very important. How much you are taught can depend a lot on the depth and strength of your relationship with your sifu. Traditionally, the students who would be taught the complete system are those accepted as disciples. Other students might learn enough to even be teachers, but do not learn the complete system and are not recognized as official “lineage holders” in the system, with the authority and responsibility to perpetuate the complete system to the next generations.

Some Sifu will be ok with a student training in a different system, and I’ve heard of people being accepted as disciple to two different teachers, as long as they are in different systems. But within one system, there can be only one Sifu who is really your teacher. Again, it comes down to the relationship thing.

This is just the way it is in the traditional Chinese methods. It’s a cultural thing and you need to be able to operate within those parameters in order to successfully be a student under one of these Sifu.

As for the different methods of power generation, I’ve never studied Fukien crane, but I do study Tibetan Crane and can speak from that perspective. These are two unrelated crane methods, developed by different people in different locations, who happen to share the same animal as an inspiration source for the method. Tibetan crane is very different from Fukien crane and my comments should not be taken as accurate for the Fukien methods.

At any rate, we have a specific method of drill and training that we use in order to develop full-body connection as a way of maximizing our power. Full body connection is not unique to our system, but the specific way in which we go about the training, is. It’s difficult to explain without being able to directly show, so I’ll just say that we use exaggerated movements in a specific way, to help the body understand how to make the connections. It is systematic and works through the entire system. It is not something that you just do for a bit, then drop away when you learn something new. The material works very well when you understand this foundational method, but does not work well at all when you do not have that understanding. It is something that takes some real dedicated focus in order to really understand, and if you are distracted with other things that take your time and energy, your progress will be very slow or not at all and you will never really understand it. And likely, you will not even understand what it is that you do not understand. You have no idea what is missing.

 

[ShortBridge]

Right, I don't think we should decide that the sifu in question is insecure or unskilled. It would be very untraditional to teach a cross-trainer. Nothing wrong with it and if someone wanted to then they could, but Fujian Crane is a closely held and traditional Chinese system and it's wrong to expect them to accommodate the concept of a modern customer.

 

[dunc]

I don’t know about the Chinese traditions
However, in the Japanese traditions similar concepts exist

Historically they were there to protect military secrets - they wanted to preserve the element of surprise associated with certain technical innovations so they went to great lengths to prevent them being stolen

The problem with this approach is that your best stuff if preserved in a cocoon and never tested/challenged which is somewhat risky

Later the usage of this concept became more about preserving the power base within the style the “franchise system” if you like. If you were loyal to your teacher then you were given more secrets over time. The head of a style structured this control of information (even extending to not correcting certain flaws in pupils) to protect himself against students who may wish to break away and start their own competitive system

You see this to some extent in competitive styles like BJJ where teachers will not show certain details on youtube, seminars or their instructionals in order to keep a competitive edge for themselves & their academies

All this is entirely possible with people who also study other styles attending your classes and you have the benefit that they help expand your field of vision outside of your training bubble

So, at least in the Japanese context, I don’t buy the arguments and suspect it has more to do with insecurity (perhaps dictated by the style rather than the individual instructor)

 

[Bruce7]

Very common in certain arts that have a very unique delivery system for power development (White Crane is one of those). Also, many teachers get tired of having low ranking students not being open to the training and always making comments about, "in X style we do it this way" instead of emptying their previous training and REALLY absorbing what is being taught.

Many arts have a very unique way of performing basics and their art is built on those mechanics. They want to impart those specific mechanics to the student. What happens in cross training is that you don't learn it most of the time. You will be mimicking that art with the flavor of the other art. If the arts are similar this is less a problem though.

Lastly, it is a big difference in perception of the art itself. Some less common arts are passed on as martial traditions and the teachers want to keep the tradition alive as much as possible, so they don't want things changed due to lack of understanding on a student's part. There is a "duty" between the student and the teacher that builds a relationship. In the West, we don't really have this idea because we pay money for the classes and view it as a business transaction void of the cultural attachments. Just like at Burger King, we want it our way.

OR, the guy could just be insecure...

Your post is excellent ,I agree totally, except real Kung Fu teachers are anything but insecure.

My Kung Fu teacher did not want to teach me, I was the only white man in the class. He charged me a great deal more than the other students and liked hitting me if I did not do the movement perfectly. I think he want me to quit, but needed my money.

I had received excellent training from one of Jack Hwang's schools and was pretty cocky, my Kung Fu teacher fixed that problem.
My teacher's solution to my full cup was light taps with a short bo or humbling me during sparing.
After nearly 4 years , I think he may have started to like me a little. I am thankful he agree to teach me, in many ways he was my best teacher.

 

[punisher73]

I am NOT an expert on Fukien White Crane, but in many people's eyes it was the forerunner to the Naha-Te styles of Karate (Goju-Ryu for example).

There is a lot of fa-jing (explosive power) that is structured to be released in short distances. It is an internal "spiraling" to create the distance within the body. The hip action is also different in how it is used in this generation. It does not move forward to rotate, but in appearance looks like it is rotating upward (common expression is to "tuck the butt").

 

[Tony Dismukes]

A lot probably depends on the purpose someone has for training and teaching.

Something I've picked up from Ben Judkins at Kung Fu Tea is that many of the "traditional" CMA schools were developed in part as alternate social support networks at a time of societal upheaval. That sort of history would lead to valuing exclusive loyalty to a given style and instructor.

Other people may just take satisfaction in preserving and passing down a historical tradition in the "pure" form that they learned from their instructor. You could see it as analogous to a classic automobile buff who takes pride in restoring/maintaining a historical vehicle using only original parts. Someone like that might not care for dealing with a student would might bring in outside influences.

My personal perspective is that martial arts are tools. The arts are there to be used by people. People are not here to serve the arts.

I teach because I think the arts are really cool and I like sharing cool things with people. I want each of my students to leave class with something which can be of use to them, whether it's a fun way to get in shape, improved fighting ability, increased body control, an enjoyable sport, a way to bond with friends, a physical metaphor for broader life lessons, whatever. The arts are tools that each student can use in their own way for their own needs.

I love teaching students who have prior training in different arts. For one thing, they are more likely to have some basic coordination, balance, body control, and the ability to follow instructions. For another, I can often explain some concept or another by showing how it relates to something in the other system they've trained in. I've never had it impede their ability to learn what I'm teaching and it frequently helps.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

One thing to add to this, is the quality of previous training. If you know that the training of Master Kim is suspect, you may not want one of his students.

Back when I was fencing, we would get either people that fenced in high school, or people that were brand new to the sport. The people who fenced in high school often had a lot of habits that were injuring their knees, and making them worse fighters. We would spend a lot of time trying to train them out of those habits, that newbies didn't have.

At the same time, they had the benefits of already knowing the basics, being 'fight-ready', and having the right mindset. It's a tradeoff, and I can see not wanting to work with either group.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I enjoy when a long time student takes some time off to study another style, then reappears a year later saying, "Sorry, you were right, [redacted] sucks."

 

[Razor]

@punisher73 has pretty much hit it in the head.

I will add to what he said by saying that when people cross-train in multiple systems, they are spreading their attention and efforts over a larger body of material. For most of us, time is short. When we spread out our efforts like that it can hamper our ability to develop and progress in what we are doing. Some people handle it better than others, so it depends on the individual circumstances.

But I can understand when a teacher just decides it is not worth his time and effort to try to teach someone who might be distracted by every other shiny object that catches his eye.

That is true, and I suppose one martial art will always be the "side" one as people are unlikely to cross-train equally (except perhaps in MMA). I certainly would not have been progressing very far with it, maybe just to the first grade or so, so I think that is probably a fair reason to not want to train someone.

Regarding your comments to @punisher73, the two master part is connected to the typical relationship between a student and teacher in the traditional Chinese methods. This is a relationship that can be on the level of family, and is very important. How much you are taught can depend a lot on the depth and strength of your relationship with your sifu. Traditionally, the students who would be taught the complete system are those accepted as disciples. Other students might learn enough to even be teachers, but do not learn the complete system and are not recognized as official “lineage holders” in the system, with the authority and responsibility to perpetuate the complete system to the next generations.

Some Sifu will be ok with a student training in a different system, and I’ve heard of people being accepted as disciple to two different teachers, as long as they are in different systems. But within one system, there can be only one Sifu who is really your teacher. Again, it comes down to the relationship thing.

This is just the way it is in the traditional Chinese methods. It’s a cultural thing and you need to be able to operate within those parameters in order to successfully be a student under one of these Sifu.

As for the different methods of power generation, I’ve never studied Fukien crane, but I do study Tibetan Crane and can speak from that perspective. These are two unrelated crane methods, developed by different people in different locations, who happen to share the same animal as an inspiration source for the method. Tibetan crane is very different from Fukien crane and my comments should not be taken as accurate for the Fukien methods.

At any rate, we have a specific method of drill and training that we use in order to develop full-body connection as a way of maximizing our power. Full body connection is not unique to our system, but the specific way in which we go about the training, is. It’s difficult to explain without being able to directly show, so I’ll just say that we use exaggerated movements in a specific way, to help the body understand how to make the connections. It is systematic and works through the entire system. It is not something that you just do for a bit, then drop away when you learn something new. The material works very well when you understand this foundational method, but does not work well at all when you do not have that understanding. It is something that takes some real dedicated focus in order to really understand, and if you are distracted with other things that take your time and energy, your progress will be very slow or not at all and you will never really understand it. And likely, you will not even understand what it is that you do not understand. You have no idea what is missing.

Thanks, that's very interesting, it adds a lot of context. Although I think that the thing about working through an entire system and needed dedicated focus is surely true of most martial arts. In the Bujinkan basics run through almost all techniques too. Personally I think that people should be able to handle their cross-training themselves and incorporate and understand what they can, but of course it is up to someone whether or not they teach you.

Right, I don't think we should decide that the sifu in question is insecure or unskilled. It would be very untraditional to teach a cross-trainer. Nothing wrong with it and if someone wanted to then they could, but Fujian Crane is a closely held and traditional Chinese system and it's wrong to expect them to accommodate the concept of a modern customer.

That makes a lot more sense if it is quite a formal and traditional environment.

To be honest, since I come from quite an informal martial arts background, I would probably not have really enjoyed too formal an environment anyway. Even if he had been willing to train me, if it is as formal as the comments seem to suggest I probably would not have come back for more than one session anyway. Just personal preference I guess, but I've found less formal environments more fun with a better atmosphere generally.

 

[Flying Crane]

That is true, and I suppose one martial art will always be the "side" one as people are unlikely to cross-train equally (except perhaps in MMA). I certainly would not have been progressing very far with it, maybe just to the first grade or so, so I think that is probably a fair reason to not want to train someone.



Thanks, that's very interesting, it adds a lot of context. Although I think that the thing about working through an entire system and needed dedicated focus is surely true of most martial arts. In the Bujinkan basics run through almost all techniques too. Personally I think that people should be able to handle their cross-training themselves and incorporate and understand what they can, but of course it is up to someone whether or not they teach you.



That makes a lot more sense if it is quite a formal and traditional environment.

To be honest, since I come from quite an informal martial arts background, I would probably not have really enjoyed too formal an environment anyway. Even if he had been willing to train me, if it is as formal as the comments seem to suggest I probably would not have come back for more than one session anyway. Just personal preference I guess, but I've found less formal environments more fun with a better atmosphere generally.

You never know how you will respond to something until you experience it. You might actually find it to be a good situation for you.

A traditional Chinese martial arts school is not often strict in a military style. My own experience has been pretty relaxed in a lot of ways, although Sifu is strict in his attention to detail and how things need to be done. We work hard, we gather in his back yard, no formal uniforms, etc.

But Sifu decides who he will teach. I had been training for over a decade under one of his students. Finally that man agreed to take me to meet his Sifu, who interviewed me and agreed to accept me as his student and I joined his little group with his four disciples.

I had also been training in another system at another school. Sifu was ok with it, but if it had significantly interfered with my development, I think he would have told me this isn’t working. After a while I set aside all the other things I had been training or had trained in the past because it had become clear to me that my best path was to focus on one system with the best teacher, which was him. I could tell that the different systems were interfering with each other; power delivery and stances were different, I ended up doing each one not quite right because they were interfering with each other. It kind of naturally fell into place for me at that point.

 

[Bruce7]

You never know how you will respond to something until you experience it. You might actually find it to be a good situation for you.

A traditional Chinese martial arts school is not often strict in a military style. My own experience has been pretty relaxed in a lot of ways, although Sifu is strict in his attention to detail and how things need to be done. We work hard, we gather in his back yard, no formal uniforms, etc.

But Sifu decides who he will teach. I had been training for over a decade under one of his students. Finally that man agreed to take me to meet his Sifu, who interviewed me and agreed to accept me as his student and I joined his little group with his four disciples.

I had also been training in another system at another school. Sifu was ok with it, but if it had significantly interfered with my development, I think he would have told me this isn’t working. After a while I set aside all the other things I had been training or had trained in the past because it had become clear to me that my best path was to focus on one system with the best teacher, which was him. I could tell that the different systems were interfering with each other; power delivery and stances were different, I ended up doing each one not quite right because they were interfering with each other. It kind of naturally fell into place for me at that point.

I am envies that you found the best teacher and are satisfied.
Finding the best teacher is the hard part. After I got out of the Navy years ago, I could not find a Kung Fu , TSD/MDK(Taekwondo) or Karate teacher of the quality of my previous teachers nearby. I found a good Kempo teacher, but had to move after just 9 months. I mostly went to average Taekwondo schools which never really satisfied me. That was one of the reasons I quit in 1985.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I don't understand why he thinks he couldn't teach me his own style just because I learn something else. I also play squash and badminton and I can't imagine a coach telling me "I can't possibly teach you badminton if you also play squash".

How many people play both squash and badminton professionally at the same time?

 

[RTKDCMB]

Generally speaking I feel that kind of attitude suggests a certain level of insecurity in what's being taught

Or it could be that they don't like having to constantly train out another schools bad habits.

 

[Yokozuna514]

There is a high risk of becoming a Jack of all trades but master of none. If that is what a person wants to do, that is their choice. There are some special individuals that can look one style and cross it with another to make something new and improved but those people are rare. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it. Maybe they are but how many have found lasting success ?

Do what makes you happy. If a new style or system is born out of it, congratulations. The probability of that happening isn't high but that doesn't mean that you SHOULDN'T try if that is what YOU want to do.

 

[Flying Crane]

I am envies that you found the best teacher and are satisfied.
Finding the best teacher is the hard part. After I got out of the Navy years ago, I could not find a Kung Fu , TSD/MDK(Taekwondo) or Karate teacher of the quality of my previous teachers nearby. I found a good Kempo teacher, but had to move after just 9 months. I mostly went to average Taekwondo schools which never really satisfied me. That was one of the reasons I quit in 1985.

I was very fortunate in that I met the right people at the right time, and had people who were willing to open doors for me.

 

[ShortBridge]

That makes a lot more sense if it is quite a formal and traditional environment.

To be honest, since I come from quite an informal martial arts background, I would probably not have really enjoyed too formal an environment anyway. Even if he had been willing to train me, if it is as formal as the comments seem to suggest I probably would not have come back for more than one session anyway. Just personal preference I guess, but I've found less formal environments more fun with a better atmosphere generally.

I don't want to make assumptions about what you regard as traditional formality in Chinese systems, but in my experience with Wing Chun and Fujian White Crane, the Chinese heads of my lineages would appear to be quite informal, in that they don't dress up, there's not a lot of bowing and military like protocol. I think those images are more modern and frankly more western than traditional.

That doesn't mean that what they are doing is informal. The relationship between sifu and student can be very formal, there just might not be obvious, outward signs of that to someone who doesn't know what to look for. And "tradition" is how they learned, which may not have been in kung fu uniforms, with sashes, in a formal kwoon. I don't know everything about all Chinese Martial Arts, but I do happen to have a really good window into Fujian White Crane, which is what the OP was exploring and this is my first hand experience with it.

 

[drop bear]

There is a high risk of becoming a Jack of all trades but master of none. If that is what a person wants to do, that is their choice. There are some special individuals that can look one style and cross it with another to make something new and improved but those people are rare. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it. Maybe they are but how many have found lasting success ?

Do what makes you happy. If a new style or system is born out of it, congratulations. The probability of that happening isn't high but that doesn't mean that you SHOULDN'T try if that is what YOU want to do.

Depends on the style. There are some where everyone has their own game. And take things from other sources.

 

[Razor]

How many people play both squash and badminton professionally at the same time?

Probably not many - but we're not talking about being professional, are we? I don't think anyone who trains a couple of times a week in their spare time is going to ever be as proficient in a martial art as true professionals would have been. That doesn't mean that you can't learn them both.

I don't want to make assumptions about what you regard as traditional formality in Chinese systems, but in my experience with Wing Chun and Fujian White Crane, the Chinese heads of my lineages would appear to be quite informal, in that they don't dress up, there's not a lot of bowing and military like protocol. I think those images are more modern and frankly more western than traditional.

That doesn't mean that what they are doing is informal. The relationship between sifu and student can be very formal, there just might not be obvious, outward signs of that to someone who doesn't know what to look for. And "tradition" is how they learned, which may not have been in kung fu uniforms, with sashes, in a formal kwoon. I don't know everything about all Chinese Martial Arts, but I do happen to have a really good window into Fujian White Crane, which is what the OP was exploring and this is my first hand experience with it.

I don't really know very much about Chinese martial arts at all, so your explanation is interesting. It sounds like they don't have many of the trappings that most people would think of in a traditional martial art, but have more subtle formality. Just a different kind of formality I suppose?

As an aside, I told my instructor what happened and the first thing he said was almost exactly what @dunc said, saying that it sounded like insecurity to him. I'm not trying to say that he was insecure, just offering this as an interesting anecdote that perhaps shows how we think of things differently. Not trying to prove anything, but I just thought it was interesting that two Bujinkan people said exactly the same thing!