The perils of cross training

[oftheherd1]

I think the issue may revolve around how an art is taught, in regards to how complete it is...or isn't. I'll use TKD, again, as an example. The majority perception of the art of TKD is that it is a striking art...predominately a kicking art. Also that it is in large part a sport martial art. And in many venues this would be a spot on description of the art. Nothing wrong with that at all if this is what is desired for the student. I think we could all readily agree that it isn't a complete art in regards to what other arts offer i.e. grappling, ground etc.

However

TKD, just like its Karate uncle can also be taught as a grappling art, a ground defense art, and edged weapon art, a baton art, a locking art, a throwing art etc. I do it all the time, I just use the term Kong Soo Do instead of TKD. I'm one of those instructors who believe that kata (forms) contain a wealth of information in regards to practical fighting (read self-defense) that cover all of the above in addition to striking and kicking. Now not everyone wants this in their training and certainly many practice the arts for different reasons than self-defense. But for those that wish a fighting art (again read self-defense) TKD or Karate or a plethora of other arts can be taught as a very complete art. It depends upon the knowledge base of the instructor(s) and the goals of the school/student base.

I totally agree with the bolded/underlined text. I always thought it strange that I wasn't taught that when I took TKD. Some things that seemed strange, or of no practical effect, were often explained as something for art. I wasn't even told that forms are also often to learn multiple attacker defense.

What always amazes me is how many teachers don't know that. No wonder so many students scoff at the idea.

 

[chinto]

Yep. There are ways you can break a RNC by grabbing the foot but not in this scenerio, it's more used in BJJ as no attacker is going to sit with his legs wrapped around you! You aren't going to break a RNC choke by grabbing a finger, there's ways out of it, they have to be done quickly but they work. This isn't one of them.

So, goodnight me!!

I would like to point out that the " rear naked choke" is a sportorization of the japanese strangle. done right it is the same except: the forearm is crushing the cricoid cartilage, and you kick the leg out from under and pull and press very hard and fast which will brake C1 or C2 or at least C3. End result is almost instant death! this is taught as a sentry removal technique for a reason. ... also for legal reasons putting such a choke or strangle on any one is considered the initiation of DEADLY FORCE! in short at that point if his friend shoots you its legal! I really get tired of the just chock him out stuff. at that point there is only one rule!! SURVIVE and preferably make sure the one trying to choke or strangle you Does NOT survive.

 

[Cyriacus]

I'm a bit worried about your understanding of reality based self defence. :asian:

Id also like to add that breaking fingers relies on them caring, and not just suddenly deciding to go from assault to attempted murder for... you know... trying to cripple their hands. Even if you fail.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Id also like to add that breaking fingers relies on them caring, and not just suddenly deciding to go from assault to attempted murder for... you know... trying to cripple their hands. Even if you fail.

Are you going to assume that they haven't decided to murder you from the beginning?

 

[RTKDCMB]

As to "rotating his arm down towards your chest" ... that is physically impossible.

That was referring to the wrist being across the throat not the rear naked choke.
The original question was "His arms are choking on your neck" That could be any one of a number of holds

If the guy has steel caps you will not have a real shot at the instep.

Steel caps only cover the toes.

Get you partner to grab you as described and quickly pull you back and down. You just will not be able to do what you are saying.
If he starts pulling you down before you do this then it will not work, that's why you have to be quicker than him but it gets more difficult the lower down he pins your arms.

 

[K-man]

Are you going to assume that they haven't decided to murder you from the beginning?

It probably doesn't matter. If you wake up it was sleeper hold and if you don't you are dead. Quite simple really.

 

[K-man]

Steel caps only cover the toes.

That's true although it does cover a bit up the foot. The problem is that you can't collapse the boot behind the cap as it will keep the front portion high. If you would chance your life on the instep under those circumstances, fine. I would probably try for the shin. :asian:

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

"His arms are choking on your neck"

Someone in the other forum suggested this solution. If you can get one of your arms inside one of your opponent's arms to stop his chocking:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deuGeiPexWY&list=UUnKut2uvb0Tcwq2BVdi8eTA&index=28

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Cross training really? Martial practitioners have been cross training since the beginning! Every martial practitioner that I know and I would imagine the origional posters own instructor has cross trained. As a martial practitioner we have curiosity on how other people do things so it is natural to have them show us and get some good practice in!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If we know the "striking art" is better than the "grappling art", or the other way around, we won't need "cross training".

 

[K-man]

Someone in the other forum suggested this solution. If you can get one of your arms inside one of your opponent's arms to stop his chocking:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deuGeiPexWY&list=UUnKut2uvb0Tcwq2BVdi8eTA&index=28

In the video the guys are already grappling on the floor and the guy on the bottom is trying to apply the choke. Certainly, at that stage there are several different actions you could take inside or outside the rules. However in he scenario you posted, I would be applying the choke as soon as we hit the ground. In fact the first arm would be around the neck before we hit the ground. By the time it locks in with the second arm, it really is too late to do anything. :asian:

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

If we know the "striking art" is better than the "grappling art", or the other way around, we won't need "cross training".

And how can you know one is better (for you) then the other, without cross training in both?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

And how can you know one is better (for you) then the other, without cross training in both?

We truly don't.

By the time it locks in with the second arm, it really is too late to do anything. :asian:

Agree! Here is another example. When both of your feet are off the ground, it's too late.

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/7828/headlock.jpg

 

[K-man]

We truly don't.


Agree! Here is another example. When both of your feet are off the ground, it's too late.

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/7828/headlock.jpg

Looks like the guy in grey is just about to get away ... not!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Looks like the guy in grey is just about to get away ... not!

Not when the feet are off the ground. Clips are always better than picture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huKsRN01qVY&feature=youtu.be

http://middleeasy.com/index.php?opt...-ever-see-in-your-life&catid=34:organizations

 

[RTKDCMB]

Reaching his foot? Do you have arms that long?
That's for if you can break his grip around your waist and sit up.

Unlikely.

Here is a clip of someone grabbing a foot;

Have you ever tried to grab someone's fingers in this situation? I have you in a rear naked choke and you have 3 seconds. My hands are behind you. You must get one hand up to relieve the pressure on the arteries and that leaves you just one hand to use real quick. At this stage I would suggest it's 'goodnight Irene'. (And, from that position you will never break anyone's wrist.)

Here is a clip of someone grabbing the fingers;

They both seem to be getting along quite well.

 

[RTKDCMB]

That's true although it does cover a bit up the foot. The problem is that you can't collapse the boot behind the cap as it will keep the front portion high. If you would chance your life on the instep under those circumstances, fine. I would probably try for the shin. :asian:

Most steel caps that I have worn only come up to the top of the toes, unless there is another type I don't know about. You can still get up to the higher part of the instep, the shin is a good target and you could also go for the soft part between the instep and the shin in the front of the ankle.

 

[Cyriacus]

Are you going to assume that they haven't decided to murder you from the beginning?

No. But if i was going to murder someone, i wouldnt bearhug them. Thats more along the lines of assault.

 

[K-man]

Reaching his foot? Do you have arms that long?
That's for if you can break his grip around your waist and sit up.

Unlikely.

Here is a clip of someone grabbing a foot;

Have you ever tried to grab someone's fingers in this situation? I have you in a rear naked choke and you have 3 seconds. My hands are behind you. You must get one hand up to relieve the pressure on the arteries and that leaves you just one hand to use real quick. At this stage I would suggest it's 'goodnight Irene'. (And, from that position you will never break anyone's wrist.)

Here is a clip of someone grabbing the fingers;

They both seem to be getting along quite well.

In the scenario, as presented, the chances of you doing any of these things is very low. Is it impossible? No. So, if you think you can do those things, that's great. However, all your escapes seem to be relying on the scenario technique being applied incorrectly. BTW the second clip was not grabbing fingers. It removed the hand. The choke I described is hand on hand, and that removal just isn't an option. Also the escape shown involved both hands. You ignore the choke and lift both hands behind the head on the off chance you can remove the hand? Mmm! In competition, worse case scenario, you pass out. On the street? I'd be looking for an eye gouge but even then, a determined attacker is not going to leave his head where you can do that.

When I get to a computer I will post a video on chokes but that will have to be a new thread as this one is way off topic.

 

[Tez3]

How did we get from 'cross training is rubbish but I'm good' to discussing SD moves?