Thats alot of pepper spray.

[Big Don]

You know what, the police had the following options:
Order the people to disperse. They disperse as ordered
Order the people to disperse, they don't disperse, threaten arrest. They disperse as ordered.
Order the people to disperse, they respond with catcalls, spitting on the police, link arms and sit pat.
At which point the police could employ night sticks, OC spray, tazers, physical force, or draw firearms.

Would you rather they beat them senseless? Shoot them? Taze them?
OK, then.
The protestors had 2 choices:
Obey the lawful orders of the police
OR
Suffer the consequences of their choice

 

[crushing]

Are you being deliberately obtuse, good sir, or do you really not see the underlying point?

I'm not being obtuse. I asked a simple question and instead of an answer I've been sent on a wild goose chase looking at old posts and left trying to dig up underlying points.

 

[ballen0351]

Quite right. I suppose this fellow should have gotten out of the way as well

So You think the civil rights movment of the 60's is on par with a bunch of kids protesting higher college prices? Your doing a MAJOR disservice to the entire civil rights movement with that comparison.

 

[elder999]

So You think the civil rights movment of the 60's is on par with a bunch of kids protesting higher college prices? Your doing a MAJOR disservice to the entire civil rights movement with that comparison.

No, I'm not-the principles are the same. I'd compare a bunch of KKK morons in the same situation, which is, frankly, just exercising their rights.

More to the point, there's far, far more to the whole "Occupy" movement than the right wing corporate owned media is letting anyone know.

[yt]ohevRQb-dJM[/yt]

Guy sounds like he belongs at a Tea Party, doesn't he? :lol:

 

[crushing]

So You think the civil rights movment of the 60's is on par with a bunch of kids protesting higher college prices? Your doing a MAJOR disservice to the entire civil rights movement with that comparison.

I disagree with your assessment. Elder is doing a great job of showing the contrast between a civil rights struggle with violent actions from government and the rather peaceful action at UC Davis.

 

[granfire]

well they are lined up 2 deep across the sidewalk. Linked arms and refusing tio move. Looks blocked to me.

I took the trouble to looking at UC Davis, bird's eye view...
There is a lot of room to get about...of course, you do have to step off the sidewalk, but I always though outside of Germany it was not criminal to walk on the grass? (being cynical, as well as German)

 

[Josh Oakley]

at some point you have to take a stand.
or you get the shaft.

Or to rephrase that:

you have a job.
and maybe by the grace of being a working stiff
you did not lose a lot in material goods.

but at one point the BS hits the fan with a vengeance....
I think we are at the point right now.

Allow me to point out to the both of you that the rally was about education, not jobs. The cost of education at UC Davis is twice what it was 6 years ago, and will roughly double again in the next 6 years.

My problem with this group's reaction (other than going from a legal protest to an illegal protest needlessly) is they publicly state that education should be free. How they figure a state government that is BILLIONS of dollars in the hole can possibly provide free education is beyond me. This group of students has a legitimate beef, I think, But they took it out of hand, and the protests are not going to help change the situation. All they do is raise protest on other side.

Now some of the problem can be alleviated by looking for sponsors, scholarships, and looking at ways to help reduce spending in manners that won't cripple services. Ramping up their waste reduction program (which they are working on), Finding more efficient ways to do business, etc. There are many ways that can be done to reduce cost.

But it will mean some decreased services. It will still mean that tuition increases. But focused efforts could stem the tide.

All the protesting is doing is costing more, and making a bad situation worse. It is vilifying administrators and police, both of whom are also constantly trying to maximixe the use of fewer and fewer resources, finances, and personnel, and creating a situation they will be increasingly worse.

And the ***** of it is that the rates aren't set at UC Davis. They are set by the University of California Board of Regents. If they started a letter writing campaign to the office of the President of the Board of Regents, protested outside of where they meet, or better yet, flooded every board meeting (which are open to the public-I checked) to capacity and spoke repeatedly about the situation, you would likely see a more effective resolution. Not a perfect one, because perfect is unattainable, but one that might be more workable.

But here is the problem with having aligned themselves with the Occupy movement: That movement is not seeking mere change, it is seeking revolution. From the standpoint of revolution, there is no working with administrators. Only their usurpation. And we are seeing in the videos that the tactics are indeed focused on revolution, not mere change. This is a highly publicized protest,which means it is tough for either side to lie, and frankly, both have made the attempt.

In short, no matter how well the cops could have or did perform, based on the mindset of the protesters, they would have been painted negatively regardless of the outcome.

 

[crushing]

Of course it isn't criminal to be on the grass. That's where most of the protesters were standing just off the edges of the sidewalk.

 

[ballen0351]

No, I'm not-the principles are the same.

So the principles of All men should be treated equal regardless of race color or creed is on par in your mind with I want my tuition to go down and I refuse to transfer to a community college or a cheaper school to get the same education?

 

[Makalakumu]

You know what, the police had the following options:
Order the people to disperse. They disperse as ordered
Order the people to disperse, they don't disperse, threaten arrest. They disperse as ordered.
Order the people to disperse, they respond with catcalls, spitting on the police, link arms and sit pat.
At which point the police could employ night sticks, OC spray, tazers, physical force, or draw firearms.

Would you rather they beat them senseless? Shoot them? Taze them?
OK, then.
The protestors had 2 choices:
Obey the lawful orders of the police
OR
Suffer the consequences of their choice

I love how it never enters into your mind that the police should join the protesters. The moment this happens, we'll reach a turning point in this nation. Until then, we'll march toward tyranny.

 

[ballen0351]

And the ***** of it is that the rates aren't set at UC Davis. They are set by the University of California Board of Regents. If they started a letter writing campaign to the office of the President of the Board of Regents, protested outside of where they meet, or better yet, flooded every board meeting (which are open to the public-I checked) to capacity and spoke repeatedly about the situation, you would likely see a more effective resolution. Not a perfect one, because perfect is unattainable, but one that might be more workable.

.

Well that just sounds like work and no fun. Its much more fun to skip class, camp in a tent, demand free stuff, and wait to get on you tube and face book.


I go to most local city meetings and whenever my state and federal reps come to town for a "town hall" meeting. There are nomally about 10% of the seats used up at these meetings the rest are empty. If people really cared and wanted to change things these meeting would be filled to the brim. However it takes real work to change things and nobodys willing to work to create change they would rather stand around and cry about how lifes not fair.

 

[jks9199]

Water? oohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Yep. Water. Dihydrogen monoxide. H2O. That's all it takes to decontaminate after OC. Wanna go all out? Add some dish soap.

In fact, you don't even need that. About 30 minutes of fresh air will do the job, too.

 

[Big Don]

I love how it never enters into your mind that the police should join the protesters.

Maybe they should join the drug dealers, the pimps, the prostitutes and the thieves too...
No, it never entered my mind that the police should join the criminals, because, make no mistake, when you are given a lawful order by a police officer and CHOOSE not to obey it, you CHOOSE to be a criminal.

 

[elder999]

Allow me to point out to the both of you that the rally was about education, not jobs. The cost of education at UC Davis is twice what it was 6 years ago, and will roughly double again in the next 6 years.

My problem with this group's reaction (other than going from a legal protest to an illegal protest needlessly) is they publicly state that education should be free. How they figure a state government that is BILLIONS of dollars in the hole can possibly provide free education is beyond me. e.

Not as hard as it sounds-it was free in California until Reagan was elected governor. Hell, it was even really, really cheap when I was college age. More to the point, it's part of the job of a government like ours to ensure that the populace is educated as much as they can be because, well, because we are the government, dammit!

1789 January 8. (to Richard Price) "...wherever the people are well informed they can be trusted with their own government..."

1787 December 20. (to James Madison) "Above all things I hope the education of the common people will be attended to ; convinced that on their good sense we may rely with the most security for the preservation of a due degree of liberty."

1810 May 6. (to the Trustees of the Lottery for East Tennessee College) "No one more sincerely wishes the spread of information among mankind than I do, and none has greater confidence in it's effect towards supporting free & good government
1818 August 4. "The objects of this primary eduction [university education] determine its character and limits. These objects are To give to every citizen the information he needs for the transaction of his own business; To enable him to calculate for himself, and to express and preserve his ideas, his contracts and accounts, in writing; To improve by reading, his morals and faculties; To understand his duties to his neighbors and country, and to discharge with competence the functions confided to him by either; To know his rights; to exercise with order and justice those he retains; to choose with discretion the fiduciary of those he delegates; and to notice their conduct with diligence, with candor and judgement; And, in general, to observe with intelligence and faithfulness all the social relations under which he shall be placed. To instruct the mass of our citizens in these, their rights, interests and duties, as men and citizens, being then the objects of education in the primary schools, whether privet or public, in them should be taught reading, writing and numerical arithmetic, the elements of mensuration...and the outlines of geography and history.

Thomas Jefferson

 

[ballen0351]

I love how it never enters into your mind that the police should join the protesters. The moment this happens, we'll reach a turning point in this nation. Until then, we'll march toward tyranny.

Or maby the protesters should stop claiming to represent the 99% because last itme I checked I dont make 1% of all income in this country and they sure as heck dont represent me. We dont join because we know camping in a park and going to the bathroom in a bucket or worse on the ground WONT change anything. If you want real change you ahve to work for it. You have to get people elected that will change things. You have to go to the real problem and make your opinions known. Sitting at a park in Hawaii crying about bank bailouts and Corp Greed and then having a BBQ with the kids wont fix anything. March to Washington. Hold Obama accountable hes in charge now. You all elected him on this hope and change crap so hold his feet to the fire. Demand meetings with your elected officials. Write letters, make phone calls, find people that believe like you and support them for a run for office. But again thats real work and no fun.

 

[Makalakumu]

Allow me to point out to the both of you that the rally was about education, not jobs. The cost of education at UC Davis is twice what it was 6 years ago, and will roughly double again in the next 6 years.

My problem with this group's reaction (other than going from a legal protest to an illegal protest needlessly) is they publicly state that education should be free.

My argument to a protestor who presented this argument would be that education IS free. We live in a day and age where you can learn just about anything you want to learn. What isn't free is the government permission slip that allows you to hold a job.

 

[granfire]

Yep. Water. Dihydrogen monoxide. H2O. That's all it takes to decontaminate after OC. Wanna go all out? Add some dish soap.

In fact, you don't even need that. About 30 minutes of fresh air will do the job, too.

LOL, and I am reading the post of mine you quoted, and your reply and I am thoroughly lost, though I know I said it, but I can't for the life of me remember the context....

I blame it on old age and the desperate need to go blond...
:lfao:

I am so sorry.
^_^

 

[ballen0351]

. What isn't free is the government permission slip that allows you to hold a job.

What? I dont have a permission slip. Crap does this mean my paycheck wont be coming next friday?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Uh, what permission slip? In the Peoples Socialist Empire State of NY, all I need to do is show up.
I can start a business without -any- paperwork. Tens of thousands of folks do that daily.
I don't have to ask any Central Assembly for a Concensus to work.
I just do.
Started a dozen businesses. Most with no paperwork.
The corporation took the most.

But again, has nada to do with OCD.

 

[Makalakumu]

Maybe they should join the drug dealers, the pimps, the prostitutes and the thieves too...

No, it never entered my mind that the police should join the criminals, because, make no mistake, when you are given a lawful order by a police officer and CHOOSE not to obey it, you CHOOSE to be a criminal.

But the police have joined the thieves when they stand against OWS...