Thats alot of pepper spray.

[Sukerkin]

I'm not being obtuse. I asked a simple question and instead of an answer I've been sent on a wild goose chase looking at old posts and left trying to dig up underlying points.

I thought those posts were my answer and I didn't feel like repeating myself at that hour - my mistake.

Simply put, the obvious underlying point is that protest being summarily ended by use of the law enforcement arm of the government is a dangerous precident to set. It's been done before, aye, but not for a while against (largely) non-violent groups. If such action is not strongly rejected by the population as a whole, you run the risk of it being yourself under the hammer one day when the government decides it can get away with more overt 'encouragement' of it's citizenry to do as they're told.

If the protest is actually 'riot' and causing real danger to property and public safety or indeed officers in the pursuance of their duty, then, as I've said previously, rock up the APC's and open fire (well maybe not quite that far, otherwise it's "Welcome to Syria!" ).

 

[ballen0351]

Not a personal attack at all: if he'd gone to college, he'd know that.

And I know many fine, intelligent people with good paying jobs and no college education.

(Don't see what those evil imperialist Pilgrims have to do with it, anyway......:lfao: )

no personal attack I didn't go to college. I was busy defending the country. I have taken many college classes and some were on fridays. HOWEVER reading the article on the events say these kids have been camping out for weeks not just one friday. So i stand by my post. Stop camping out andgo to class you bums

 

[Makalakumu]

Meanwhile, look at all of the people we've inspired here in the land of the free...

http://rt.com/usa/news/ows-police-cairo-protests-883/

"We saw the firm stance the US took against OWS people (and the German government against green protesters) to secure the state," an Egyptian state television anchor said on Sunday (as translated by Sultan Sooud al Qassemi). While it’s without a doubt a hyperbole to compare the deaths of at least 33 of this writing with the indeed brutal but comparably tame assaults carried out by US police departments, it still says something to the forces in the States that their ridiculous response to protests so far has spawned a lethal follow-up in Egypt.

While protesters have proven in America during the last two months of demonstrations to be peaceful, assaults from police officers across the country have only increased in recent weeks. A coordinated crackdown on several cities last week led to mass injuries, and two overzealous raids in New York alone last week left many protesters bloodied and bruised. Peaceful protesters were assaulted by cops with clubs and journalists were assaulted and arrested for doing their job during last Thursday’s Day of Action, which brought tens of thousands to the street of Manhattan. The next morning across the country, campus cops at the University of California Davis fired toxic pepper spray on protesters who sat quietly without provoking the police. In the aftermath, outrage over the handling of the OWS movement by local police departments has only erupted further, with rallies against ongoing brutality occurring in countless cities.

Such a wonderful example we're setting with our Beacon of Liberty...more like the Eye of Sauron.

 

[ballen0351]

Thats the biggest bunch of crap Ive seen in a while. Toxic pepper spray (ive seen people spray it on a cracker and eat it) cops with clubs running around beatting up reporters. Peaceful protesters (Rapes, assaults, crapping on police cars, smashing windows) Brutality in countless citys. So much for unbias reporting. lol whatever When egypt stops killing each other maybe ill care what they have to say

 

[Sukerkin]

Maka and Ballen, isn't it rather that the media is taking relatively isolated incidents and blowing them up out of all proportion?

In a sense tho' it doesn't matter, for, as I've said before, quite often the perception of something is more important and more compelling than the reality. Distance can lend perspective when information is good but when information is bad (i.e. most news coverage) then the further away from source the 'perceiver' is, the less what they see and hear tends to bear any relation to the reality.

 

[Makalakumu]

Thats the biggest bunch of crap Ive seen in a while. Toxic pepper spray (ive seen people spray it on a cracker and eat it) cops with clubs running around beatting up reporters. Peaceful protesters (Rapes, assaults, crapping on police cars, smashing windows) Brutality in countless citys. So much for unbias reporting. lol whatever When egypt stops killing each other maybe ill care what they have to say

The point is that they justify what they are doing based on what we are doing. The article even states that the difference magnified and that the comparison is hyperbolic. However, a cop smacking a protester is a cop smacking a protester when it's caught on film. A cop pepper spraying defenseless kids is a cop pepper spraying defenseless kids when it's caught on film. There is no context. Not that I buy the so called contest anyway.

And, what's the next step? What happens if this doesn't work? When the protesters show up and camp out somewhere different, when does it go to the next level?

 

[Makalakumu]

Maka and Ballen, isn't it rather that the media is taking relatively isolated incidents and blowing them up out of all proportion?

In a sense tho' it doesn't matter, for, as I've said before, quite often the perception of something is more important and more compelling than the reality. Distance can lend perspective when information is good but when information is bad (i.e. most news coverage) then the further away from source the 'perceiver' is, the less what they see and hear tends to bear any relation to the reality.

Looks like our posts crossed. This was my point.

 

[Josh Oakley]

I thought those posts were my answer and I didn't feel like repeating myself at that hour - my mistake.

Simply put, the obvious underlying point is that protest being summarily ended by use of the law enforcement arm of the government is a dangerous precident to set. It's been done before, aye, but not for a while against (largely) non-violent groups. If such action is not strongly rejected by the population as a whole, you run the risk of it being yourself under the hammer one day when the government decides it can get away with more overt 'encouragement' of it's citizenry to do as they're told.

If the protest is actually 'riot' and causing real danger to property and public safety or indeed officers in the pursuance of their duty, then, as I've said previously, rock up the APC's and open fire (well maybe not quite that far, otherwise it's "Welcome to Syria!" ).

Maybe a bit over done. Fat Tuesday, WTC protest, you name it. Seattle PARTIES! Sometimes that means we get out of hand. And pepper spray just doesn't do it for us. They break out the CS gas! Pepper spray.... pbbth. CS is where it's at.

I figured I might as well do ONE pic.

View attachment $Pimpin aint easy.jpg

 

[elder999]

 

[Makalakumu]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...address-phone-number-email-posted-online.html

A rogue computer hacking group has posted online the personal contact details - including his home address - of the police officer who pepper-sprayed peaceful student Occupy protesters.



Anonymous also disclosed the mobile telephone number and email address of Lt John Pike on a YouTube video.



The University of California Davis officer sparked worldwide outrage when he was seen, clad in riot gear, casually spraying an orange cloud at the heads of protesters, over the weekend.



A computer-generated voice in the video, posted on Tuesday, said: 'Dear Officer John Pike. Your information is now public domain'.
It has since been removed because it is 'a violation of YouTube's policy prohibiting hate speech'.



Anonymous has threatened or claimed credit for attacks on numerous media organizations, including Fox News - but this appears to be the first time the hacking group has targeted an individual.



The group said: 'We have no problem targeting police and releasing their information even if it puts them at risk. We want them to experience just a taste of the brutality and misery they serve us on an everyday basis.'

I don't know if this has been posted earlier in the thread, because I jumped in late, however, I think it's an interesting development. The message seems clear, if a cop is going to do this, you don't get to go home and live anonymously anymore. On the other hand, I can see this getting out of hand quickly. It's essentially cyberbullying with the added element of possible violence and I DO NOT support that. On the other hand again, the people have never had a tool like this to hold our public officials accountable. If the law protects them even when they do us wrong, well...

:flame:

Let the flaming begin!

 

[granfire]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...address-phone-number-email-posted-online.html



I don't know if this has been posted earlier in the thread, because I jumped in late, however, I think it's an interesting development. The message seems clear, if a cop is going to do this, you don't get to go home and live anonymously anymore. On the other hand, I can see this getting out of hand quickly. It's essentially cyberbullying with the added element of possible violence and I DO NOT support that. On the other hand again, the people have never had a tool like this to hold our public officials accountable. If the law protects them even when they do us wrong, well...

:flame:

Let the flaming begin!

I think that sucks majorly.

There is no need for that.
Do that for Sanduski....but that poor sap?

 

[billc]

If it is true that the officer who did the spraying is a Lt. who did the spraying to spare his fellow officers the **** storm that was going to happen, good for him. That is the mark of a good leader. I hope that if he is a good guy that this works out for him and his family. Holding the line against jerks like those spoiled teenagers isn't an easy thing to do when the media, academia and at least half of the political class, if not a little more than half, is either cowardly or corrupt and willing to place good police officers in bad situations, and then attack them for doing the job they were asked to do.

 

[Sukerkin]

If it is true that the officer who did the spraying is a Lt. who did the spraying to spare his fellow officers the **** storm that was going to happen, good for him. That is the mark of a good leader.

I agree. It'd have been better not to do it at all, as I understand the circumstances, but he was between a rock and a hard place vis a vie the wishes of the university's Dean.

 

[ballen0351]

I agree. It'd have been better not to do it at all, as I understand the circumstances, but he was between a rock and a hard place vis a vie the wishes of the university's Dean.

well I've asked and nobody answers so ill ask you. What should the cops have done? How long do you allow people to break the law before you step in? When do you step in and take control of a situation and no longer allow it to get worse? What would the next step for the protesters if if the cops didn't step in and ignored them?

 

[granfire]

well I've asked and nobody answers so ill ask you. What should the cops have done? How long do you allow people to break the law before you step in? When do you step in and take control of a situation and no longer allow it to get worse? What would the next step for the protesters if if the cops didn't step in and ignored them?

That is actually not the question applicable IMHO.

There is really no question he ad to do it.

Seems he knew the poop rolling downhill would land on him.

he should not have been put into the position. I don't think it was necessary.

but that is me.

And frankly, there is always a bit of horse dealing involved, do a little crime, if it's not going to be bothersome, prevent a big one from happening.

or let one slide because the results would be bad...

Like this one.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

No one wants to answer the "What should he have done" question. It's been asked in a few cases and no one has the bollocks to say "They should have just let them break the law."

 

[elder999]

No one wants to answer the "What should he have done" question. It's been asked in a few cases and no one has the bollocks to say "They should have just let them break the law."

Take a look at the raw footage, especially the part before the pepper spraying. They could-and should-have just dragged them off.

 

[Makalakumu]

What should the cops have done?

Quit. Find a new line work. Do something that doesn't put you in these situations.

How long do you allow people to break the law before you step in?

It depends on what the situation is. If your boss is telling to you to do something that violates ethical standards and is an expectation of your job, you face a moral dilemma.

When do you step in and take control of a situation and no longer allow it to get worse?

That's what OWS is doing. They are stepping in before the situation gets worse and the cops are defending the bad guys.

What would the next step for the protesters if if the cops didn't step in and ignored them?

That is a good question. Keep gathering support. Focus your ideas. Organize and topple the ruling class. That's the next step.

 

[granfire]

No one wants to answer the "What should he have done" question. It's been asked in a few cases and no one has the bollocks to say "They should have just let them break the law."

tear the tents down.
The people were not in violation, the tents were...

 

[Makalakumu]

Ultimately, this whole thread, including the part where the Lt. is retaliated against is a product of the break down of Law and Order in this country. The Founding Fathers didn't agree on much, but they did agree that the law should apply to everyone. In our society, we have traversed the boundary into tyranny by allowing the powerful to do what they please and take control of the monopoly on the use of force for their own benefit. When the cops enforce "the law" on people who are protesting others who break "the law" and get away with it, they become part of the broken system. This story only ends in tragedy.

Here's a book that I think gets at the heart of the matter.

http://www.amazon.com/Liberty-Justice-Some-Equality-Powerful/dp/0805092056

Here's an interview of the author that I recently listened to.

http://antiwar.com/radio/2011/11/20/glenn-greenwald-36/

Salon.com blogger Glenn Greenwald discusses how Gerald Ford’s pardon of Richard Nixon cut the last vestiges of the rule of law in America; the “too big to jail” justice system where powerful people need not fear incarceration; turning the Nuremberg court’s opinion on “aggressive war” on its head, as the US continually attacks countries that don’t pose a threat and government officials never face war crimes tribunals; the world-record US prison population, comprised of drug offenders and regular people who can’t afford to replace their (usually incompetent) public defender; and how US presidents refrain from prosecuting previous administrations, with the expectation that their own crimes will also go unpunished.

I hope the cops can take a good hard look at what they do and see beyond their paychecks. It's only going to get darker.