Taekwondo: Out of the Olympic Games after Brazil 2016?
- Thread starter Markku P
- Start date
That's true. BUT there were some good practitioners in the first events. Pat Smith was a legit kickboxer. Ken Shamrock was a well-known submission fighter in Japan. Gerard Gordeau was a Kyokushin karate champion. Christoph Leninger was a judo champion. And so on. It's not like everyone was just some random dude cherry picked from strip mall karate studios.
I'm certainly no fan of the Gracies. I actually dislike them as a family. But I do think that they proved that in order to be a complete fighter you need a legit grappling game. Love or hate Royce, what he was able to do against proven guys in those early days was impressive.
Mostly true, but not entirely. Any MMA fan, for instance, knows that Machida is a karate guy, Alistair Overeem comes from Dutch kickboxing, Dong Hyun Kim is a judo guy, and Rousimar Palhares is a BJJ guy. Styles are still around, but everything requires modification for MMA, regardless of what it is.
Certainly anyone can come from any background--taekwondo, drunken money kung fu, pencak silat, or whatever--and if you can succeed and win then it's not like the sport will shun you. In fact, the opposite is most likely to happen because you'd be such a novelty. But the problem is that most guys from traditional backgrounds just haven't been able to adapt and haven't fared well.
Do I like it? No. I like the idea of style vs style. I'd love it if MMA presented lots of well-contested matchups between pure TKDers and karatekas and capoeira dudes and muay Thai guys and wrestlers and BJJ guys etc. But that's just not the reality and it's not because of any BS about TMAers being "too honorable" or anything like that, as is often alleged.
As for MMA being a style, at this point it kind of is. You can go to an MMA gym and sign up for an MMA program and will generally be taught a system of fighting that is a hybrid of muay Thai, wrestling, and BJJ, all modified for MMA competition.
You certainly don't have to have any ground training. You don't actually need ANY training. It's not required to be a martial artist at all or to be a good one. But I can say that, as someone who has studied both TKD and judo, if you have no grappling ability then 9 times out of 10 a judoka will be able to get his hands on you and get you to the ground. That's just the way it is. And then the pure striker is probably going to complain about "cheating" and say "no fair" and then throw a fit and take his ball and go home.
Just consider the case of Raymond Daniels. Karate fighter extraordinaire who has like a million NBL titles and went 18-0 in kickboxing, picking up wins in the WCL and Pro-Taekwondo. On the feet, he's basically unstoppable, and completely CLOWNS guys and makes them look foolish. So what did he do? He went to Strikeforce, fought one MMA fight, got completely embarrassed and choked out by some random dude no one's ever heard of, and he's never fought in MMA since.
But with all that said, I will at least say that you probably don't need a ground game against untrained bar guys who don't know how to fight. So from a self-defense perspective, yeah, more often than not you can probably get away with it. But you never know when you're going to run up against a guy who actually has some training.
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
It depends how you define 'hand picked'. Its where you look for fighters. Were any elite, international standard tkd guys asked to fight or did they just go to the local dodgy tkd club and offer "five minutes of fame" to some nobody black belt? Im pretty sure I know the answer.
I will admit that that sounds kind of retarded. Falling down should never be a strategy and the rules should never encourage such a thing.
I actually asked my new WTF instructor about this. I told him that I've heard that punches score on paper, but that in reality the judges never score them. He said that, at least in the tournaments that his school competes in, that that's not true. I intend to test this myself once I get some training time under my belt and start competing.
I imagine that with the electronic hogu punches should start scoring. Right?
Well let's look at the very first UFC.
In UFC 1, I actually don't think there were any TKD guys, but there was a karate guy: Gerard Gordeau.
According to Wikipedia, these are his credentials:
- 9th dan Kyokushinkai Karate (Budo Kaikan)
- 7th dan Sei Budo Kai
- 4th dan Kyokushinkai Karate (NKA)
- 2nd dan Full-Contact Karate (USA)
- Highest degree Savate (Boxe Francaise)
- 4th dan Oyama Karate
- Eight time Dutch Champion Kyokushin Karate
- Competed at the World Championships Kyokushin Karate (1979, 1983, 1987)
- Savate World Heavyweight Champion (1991)
- Three time Savate European Heavyweight Champion
He also had a 27-4 kickboxing record. Doesn't strike me as some random dude off the street.
Gordeau actually made it all the way to the finals only to be choked out by Royce in under 2 minutes.
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
He is also only one example. To say the ufc exposed some myths is just too big of a call in my opinion. All it showed me was that if you happen to get into a fight with an elite bjj guy and you dont have a ground game you could be in trouble. BUT, 1. Thats pretty bloody obvious and most decent instructors would already have told this to their students, and 2. What are the chances of being attacked by some drunk in the pub who happens to be an elite grappling champion. The guy you mention, gerard gordeu, would feel pretty safe walking the streets at night and would beat the crap out of 99 per cent of guys he'd come accross on the street. I dont think he walked away from ufc saying "oh crap, everything Ive been taught is a myth".
I'm not saying there wasn't a mix. Through UFC 1-5 there were a good handful of random dudes. But there were also a lot of guys who had accomplished a great deal in their respective styles.
The thing about grappling is that any fight can devolve into a brawl and end up on the ground. So what I think it showed us is that it's important to have at least a strong basic grappling game if you want to be a complete fighter and handle yourself in all ranges of combat.
Well at least in terms of BJJ, I think a lot of guys--even martial arts instructors--had never even heard of it. But I do think that your point stands in regard to grappling in general.
Not good, so I agree that if we're talking purely about self-defense against untrained assailants, then yeah, you'll probably be fine even if all you've done is a striking art.
Oh, no doubt.
No, I think he probably walked away saying, "I have a hole in my game."
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
"Not good, so I agree that if we're talking purely about self-defense against untrained assailants, then yeah, you'll probably be fine even if all you've done is a striking art."
and the reason most people do martial arts is to learn to defend themselves, not to fight proffessionally.
"No, I think he probably walked away saying, "I have a hole in my game."
which is such a "sports" thing to say, and yes, as far as sport goes he has a hole in his game. As far as self defence goes, I think he'd handle himself just fine. The gracies would have you believe that without a ground game you are screwed, and if you are talking purely sport, then they are probably right. Outside of the ring, I dont agree. Watch a good boxer get in a street fight, their lack of 'ground game' doesnt seem too much of a problem. Im still not seeing any 'myths' that the UFC uncovered.
and the reason most people do martial arts is to learn to defend themselves, not to fight proffessionally.
"No, I think he probably walked away saying, "I have a hole in my game."
which is such a "sports" thing to say, and yes, as far as sport goes he has a hole in his game. As far as self defence goes, I think he'd handle himself just fine. The gracies would have you believe that without a ground game you are screwed, and if you are talking purely sport, then they are probably right. Outside of the ring, I dont agree. Watch a good boxer get in a street fight, their lack of 'ground game' doesnt seem too much of a problem. Im still not seeing any 'myths' that the UFC uncovered.
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
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Markku P
Blue Belt
Self defense has been least important part for my students. They like sparring training, focus mitts and that they can train with their families. But most of them won't compete at all.
/Markku P
Well like I said you'll PROBABLY be fine.
Then again, it's not like no one's doing martial arts. Sometimes it seems like I can't even go to the bar anymore without bumping into at least 5 guys in Affliction shirts who "train UFC." On top of that one needs only look at a forum like this one to realize that people are out there who do train and have training and not all of them are going to have good intentions. So while I'm sure we both agree that MOST people in the world are untrained, it's kind of a roll of the dice to just assume it about any individual.
Also, I sometimes think standup fighters underestimate a real fight's ability to inexplicably end up on the ground. Sure, most of the time you can use your speed and distancing to keep it up right, but it's really not that hard for someone to get within clinch range and get their hands on you, which often leads to two guys rolling around on the ground. I know that if that happens I want to have the skills reverse position if I'm on the bottom or maintain position if I'm on top.
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Markku P
Blue Belt
Yes! We have lot kids and families and they has told me that. I have also spoke with many other instructors (WTF & ITF) and many of them agree with me. I think Taekwondo is MUCH more than self defense.
On the subject of common WTF criticisms, such as being boring, not throwing punches, falling down, and using only roundhouses, I submit the following video.
It's a ITF guy competing against a WTF guy under WTF rules. As you'll see, the ITF guys uses a wide range of attacks. And even though it's at a slow, tactical pace, I didn't find the match boring at all.
Despite the fact that it's under the WTF ruleset, the guy more fully implementing TKD's arsenal wins!
It's a ITF guy competing against a WTF guy under WTF rules. As you'll see, the ITF guys uses a wide range of attacks. And even though it's at a slow, tactical pace, I didn't find the match boring at all.
Despite the fact that it's under the WTF ruleset, the guy more fully implementing TKD's arsenal wins!
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