How long will Taekwondo stay in Olympic games?

[ralphmcpherson]

I've never met a person who uses what would be recognized in a dojang as taekwondo in self-defense situations.

so you've never seen someone use a hook punch, uppercut, front kick, elbow, throat strike etc in a real situation? Or do you only refer to tkd clubs where they bounce around doing tornado kicks for an hour and a half with a bit of tappy point sparrring thrown in? Go and check out some ITF dojangs or some schools teaching traditional tkd, there are schools everywhere that teach tkd applicable to real situations.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Ralph it just seems like any of those in the ages of 20-30 who want to talk of thier vast knowledge related to what TKD is or is not just don't get? If they or anyone they know has no SD skills its not the art only the instructor teaching it. Traditional TKD is all inclusive of everthing just the focus of training changes with time age and health. The fact that there is such a general concensus of uniformed people saying something diferent or so many so called masters now who never learned anything different still does not change what was at its base and some of this comes home to roost from many who refused to share or keep what was best for only thier own kind or inner circle promoting only sport to bring people in the door.

I have to laugh when people say "nothing taught in tkd is applicable to a real SD situation", what they should say is - "nothing 'I'VE' been taught in tkd is applicable to a real SD situation". It just makes no sense at all that someting with a curriculum involving a massive array of strikes and blocks cant be 'effective'. If certain instructors want to pull out a few selected bits and pieces and call it tkd, and train it as a sport revolving around a ridiculous ruleset then no, it wont be effective. The art itself is highly effective, its just the way certain instructors train it that can make it less so. Its like driving a car around permanantly in 1st gear and then declaring "this car is too slow". The car isnt slow, its the driver who refuses to get out of first gear.

 

[Master Dan]

I have to laugh when people say "nothing taught in tkd is applicable to a real SD situation", what they should say is - "nothing 'I'VE' been taught in tkd is applicable to a real SD situation". It just makes no sense at all that someting with a curriculum involving a massive array of strikes and blocks cant be 'effective'. If certain instructors want to pull out a few selected bits and pieces and call it tkd, and train it as a sport revolving around a ridiculous ruleset then no, it wont be effective. The art itself is highly effective, its just the way certain instructors train it that can make it less so. Its like driving a car around permanantly in 1st gear and then declaring "this car is too slow". The car isnt slow, its the driver who refuses to get out of first gear.

Thank you well put the same mistakes are made constantly in assumptions of what a person can or can't do related to SD in viewing age, size, or body type as well. The true basis for all traditional Martial Arts is things are not always what they seem and sweeping statement of everything is all one way or this only demonstrates a total lack of experience or common sense possibly both? as always thanks Ralph

 

[Cyriacus]

Personally, I consider the transition of taekwondo from martial art to sport a good thing. I think it promotes a more realistic attitude toward the applications of the art (fewer people thinking they're going to take on five guys in the street Van Damme-style); keeps TKD from going the way many karate programs have gone--into a pit of fanciful, pseudo-religious nonsense; and allows people to focus on the Korean innovations to the art without clinging to the nationalistic fabrication that is the official history of taekwondo. What the Kukkiwon and the WTF need to do to make this work, though, is stop changing the rules and the forms every few years and stop pushing the aforementioned falsified history as required reading.

History Teaching is hardly Relevant to Application of a System. You also seem to be Confused. On the one hand, You say TKD has Degenerated into Fanciful Stuff and not so much a Fighting Form, but also say that You think its Good that its becoming more Sport than Art. Rethink Your Viewpoint.

I've never met a person who uses what would be recognized in a dojang as taekwondo in self-defense situations.

Yeah.

Probably because You do Aikido.
I wouldnt expect You to meet many TKD Practitioners from Various Systems of TKD in Your Aikido Dojo.


That aside, You must have a Truly Strange Idea of what Self Defense is, You Poor Soul.

 

[OwlMatt]

History Teaching is hardly Relevant to Application of a System.

I disagree. I think a lot of misconceptions about the applications of taekwondo stem from the false notion that Koreans were defeating their enemies with taekwondo kicks 2,000 years ago.

You also seem to be Confused. On the one hand, You say TKD has Degenerated into Fanciful Stuff and not so much a Fighting Form, but also say that You think its Good that its becoming more Sport than Art. Rethink Your Viewpoint.

I did not say TKD has degenerated into fanciful stuff. I said I think the sporting focus has helped keep TKD from degenerating into fanciful stuff. Please make sure you know what a post says next time before you -rep it.

Yeah.

Probably because You do Aikido.
I wouldnt expect You to meet many TKD Practitioners from Various Systems of TKD in Your Aikido Dojo.

I have also trained Taekwondo, otherwise I wouldn't be posting in a taekwondo forum. Please refrain from making assumptions.

That aside, You must have a Truly Strange Idea of what Self Defense is, You Poor Soul.

Irrelevant, baseless insult. Borderline trolling.

There is plenty of room for disagreement on MT. Look up the page and you will see Raplh disagreeing with me quite effectively. He, however, does a few things you do not do: (1) he is courteous and not condescending, (2) he cites actual experience, (3) he makes no uninformed assumptions, (4) he refrains from personal attacks, and (5) he does not quickdraw -rep.

You were in such a hurry to call me an idiot that you misread my post and jumped to some very wrong conclusions. Please be more careful in the future. If you'd like to continue this conversation like a grown-up, I'm listening.

 

[Cyriacus]

I disagree. I think a lot of misconceptions about the applications of taekwondo stem from the false notion that Koreans were defeating their enemies with taekwondo kicks 2,000 years ago.

Misconceptions, Yes. I do not Believe TKD Kicks were used 2000 Years ago, and have never even heard that Idealogy. As far as I know, it was Idealised in the 50s with a Karate Influence, and I see No Reason to Learn More.

I did not say TKD has degenerated into fanciful stuff. I said I think the sporting focus has helped keep TKD from degenerating into fanciful stuff. Please make sure you know what a post says next time before you -rep it.

This is the Contradiction. The Sport Focus is why TKD is Viewed as not using Guards, Not Blocking, and Rarely if ever Punching. If the Sport is whats Preventing Fancy Stuff, well thats Funny, since any given Old Video of TKD has next to No, or No Fanciful Stuff at all. Can You Support Your Statements? (Amazingly, this is out of Curiousity!)

I have also trained Taekwondo, otherwise I wouldn't be posting in a taekwondo forum. Please refrain from making assumptions.

Making Presumptions based on Information Provided. However, this would only Reinforce another Posters Comment that You are Viewing this Subjectively to YOUR Experience with TKD.

Irrelevant, baseless insult. Borderline trolling.

If I were Trolling, I would have said something about Aikido.
Feel Free to Feel this way, though. Ill come back to it in a sec.

There is plenty of room for disagreement on MT. Look up the page and you will see Raplh disagreeing with me quite effectively. He, however, does a few things you do not do: (1) he is courteous and not condescending, (2) he cites actual experience, (3) he makes no uninformed assumptions, (4) he refrains from personal attacks, and (5) he does not quickdraw -rep.

If I came across as Condescending, well, that was not My Intention. As for Experience, I have Spoken to Numerous People who have used TKD in both Self Defense and Military Service. I have also used it on Two Occassions. These Uninformed Assumptions are based on Your Profile. I did not Personally Attack You. And I feel that Your Statements were too Sweeping, and Generalized TKD based on the Variety of it which is ultimately not as close to a Fighting Purpose as others. And I am not referring to the KKW Form, but to Instructors who trim it down to be Fanciful.

You were in such a hurry to call me an idiot that you misread my post and jumped to some very wrong conclusions. Please be more careful in the future. If you'd like to continue this conversation like a grown-up, I'm listening.

And yet I am not the only Person here Disagreeing with Your Previous Reply.
I am Careful, and believe it or not, I am attempting to Communicate. If I wanted to simply Criticize You, I would have made an Equally Sweeping Disagreement.

To jump back to History, Kickboxing was Stemmed from Karate. And yet it barely Resembles it. Does the fact Kickboxing Stems from Karate mean that its Historical Connection to Karate Influences how the System is Taught?
A Fair Few Forms of Kickboxing have Belt Systems. And so forth.
Different Places Teach Different TKD History, and different TKD Interpritations.
And so forth.

What Ive been trying to say, is that You are seeing the Less Fighting-Geared Form of TKD as being more Present.

Personally, I consider the transition of taekwondo from martial art to sport a good thing. I think it promotes a more realistic attitude toward the applications of the art (fewer people thinking they're going to take on five guys in the street Van Damme-style); keeps TKD from going the way many karate programs have gone--into a pit of fanciful, pseudo-religious nonsense; and allows people to focus on the Korean innovations to the art without clinging to the nationalistic fabrication that is the official history of taekwondo. What the Kukkiwon and the WTF need to do to make this work, though, is stop changing the rules and the forms every few years and stop pushing the aforementioned falsified history as required reading.

See the Italic Text? I Agree with Both of Those. Isnt it amazing that Im not just Personally Attacking You?
The Underlined Text is what Im Speaking of Firstly. Yes, History can be Overtaught. By some Instructors. But definitely not all, and probably not the Overall Majority in all TKD.

As for Martial Art and Sport, Ill let a KKW TKD Stylist talk about the difference between Sport Forms, and Not-So-Sport-Forms.
Then the Bold Text:

No martial art will prepare you for taking on 5 guys van damme style, BUT tkd taught as a martial art (not sport) will prepare you to handle yourself very well in a real life situation. I know many police officers and army guys who train soley martial tkd and they can not only fight very well, but are using what they know in day to day situations. There is no problem with 'sport' tkd providing the guys doing it know they are not learning to defend themselves, they are learning a sport. There is still plenty of room for it to co-exist with martial tkd in my opinion.

The Underlined Text is a Reply by a TKD Practitioner, who doesnt Practition a Sporting Form who has Learnt, and possibly been Taught this.
The Italic Text is to Verify His View, which is basically Mine, also.
The Bold Text is also what Ive been saying.

History Teaching is hardly Relevant to Application of a System. You also seem to be Confused. On the one hand, You say TKD has Degenerated into Fanciful Stuff and not so much a Fighting Form, but also say that You think its Good that its becoming more Sport than Art. Rethink Your Viewpoint.

This is Me saying that the History does not direct the Art. Some places just Teach it too Emphatically.
I then go on to say that You said; " I think it promotes a more realistic attitude toward the applications of the art (fewer people thinking they're going to take on five guys in the street Van Damme-style);" and "gone--into a pit of fanciful, pseudo-religious nonsense;". What else am I supposed to think? Next Time, Ill be sure to assume that by this, You mean that no TKD is like that at all, and doesnt teach that kind of stuff. And Naturally Assume that You meant, "I did not say TKD has degenerated into fanciful stuff. I said I think the sporting focus has helped keep TKD from degenerating into fanciful stuff. Please make sure you know what a post says next time before you -rep it."

Yeah.

Probably because You do Aikido.
I wouldnt expect You to meet many TKD Practitioners from Various Systems of TKD in Your Aikido Dojo.

I could not have Possibly known that You have Trained TKD.


**That aside, You must have a Truly Strange Idea of what Self Defense is, You Poor Soul.
This was meant in Good Humor partly, but also in Response to;
"I've never met a person who uses what would be recognized in a dojang as taekwondo in self-defense situations."
This is still Subjective. It means that You, where You Trained, did not Meet someone who Mentioned such a thing. This doesnt mean theyre a Minority in that sense. The fact is, most Martial Artists are not only able to Avoid Violent Confrontation, or Circumvent it, but are also not likely to talk about it Regularly. And even if they are, they will still appear to be the Minority due to the sheer number of People in the World who do TKD.

so you've never seen someone use a hook punch, uppercut, front kick, elbow, throat strike etc in a real situation? Or do you only refer to tkd clubs where they bounce around doing tornado kicks for an hour and a half with a bit of tappy point sparrring thrown in? Go and check out some ITF dojangs or some schools teaching traditional tkd, there are schools everywhere that teach tkd applicable to real situations.

These are all TKD Techniques, taught in Traditional TKD. (Not the Bold Text. The Techniques. But hey, Jumping Spinning Roundhouses have been around for a long time as well. Theyre just rare as hell in usage)


Now, if We Disagree on this, that is Fine.
I dont Mind.
There is Nothing Wrong with Agreeing to Disagree.

But Bare in Mind, that if what I was saying was a Personal Attack, then perhaps consider Re-Reading it in a Different Mindset.
And if I were Trolling, all Id have to do is say something about Aikidokas.

** - In Regards to This Section, Ralph Mcpherson Answers nicely. If those Methods arent Self Defense, well, thats Interesting. Hence My Comment.
Those are TKD Techniques in TKD. Non-Sport TKD.



In Addition, I am apparently Rude and Misreading, according to the Returned Rep-, otherwise known as Cause>Effect.
Id rather like another Users Input on This Conversation.

 

[OwlMatt]

Cyriacus, that post was much too long for me to respond to it point-by-point, so I've stuck here to those things that are in your own words and directly relating to taekwondo. There's no point in continuing a fight about e-behavior, anyway.

To jump back to History, Kickboxing was Stemmed from Karate. And yet it barely Resembles it. Does the fact Kickboxing Stems from Karate mean that its Historical Connection to Karate Influences how the System is Taught?
A Fair Few Forms of Kickboxing have Belt Systems. And so forth.

Different Places Teach Different TKD History, and different TKD Interpritations.
And so forth.

What Ive been trying to say, is that You are seeing the Less Fighting-Geared Form of TKD as being more Present.

Not necessarily more present, but certainly more relevant to the topic of this thread.

See the Italic Text? I Agree with Both of Those. Isnt it amazing that Im not just Personally Attacking You?
The Underlined Text is what Im Speaking of Firstly. Yes, History can be Overtaught. By some Instructors. But definitely not all, and probably not the Overall Majority in all TKD.

If this discussion were to encompass all styles of taekwondo, then I would agree with you. But this thread is about Olympic taekwondo, and so I was speaking specifically about KKW/WTF taekwondo, many schools of which (including the KKW itself) still push this false history, which creates confusion about the art.

Misconceptions, Yes. I do not Believe TKD Kicks were used 2000 Years ago, and have never even heard that Idealogy. As far as I know, it was Idealised in the 50s with a Karate Influence, and I see No Reason to Learn More.

Okay, then we agree on that. I see this point, on which we seem to agree, as evidence that the pushing of a false history negatively affects taekwondo, both as a sport and as a martial art. And yes, I hear this kind of history all the time from KKW/WTF schools. It is the official history according to the KKW and the WTF.

This is the Contradiction. The Sport Focus is why TKD is Viewed as not using Guards, Not Blocking, and Rarely if ever Punching. If the Sport is whats Preventing Fancy Stuff, well thats Funny, since any given Old Video of TKD has next to No, or No Fanciful Stuff at all. Can You Support Your Statements? (Amazingly, this is out of Curiousity!)

I don't think we are talking about the same thing on this point. You seem to be talking about technical elements of modern sport taekwondo that are martially impractical. I certainly agree that someone who mistakes modern sport taekwondo for life-saving self-defense techniques is kidding himself, but that's not really what I'm talking about.

What I'm talking about is the way sport allows taekwondo schools to avoid the trap into which so many karate schools have fallen: that of pseudo-spiritual life-coaching and fantasy playacting. If you're willing to accept that your martial art is a sport rather than some mystical, foreign spiritual tradition, you're far less likely to be led into this kind of trap.

You are Viewing this Subjectively to YOUR Experience with TKD.

Of course I am. So is everyone else.

And I feel that Your Statements were too Sweeping, and Generalized TKD based on the Variety of it which is ultimately not as close to a Fighting Purpose as others. And I am not referring to the KKW Form, but to Instructors who trim it down to be Fanciful.

I was speaking about KKW/WTF taekwondo because that is the Olympic style, and this thread is about Olympic taekwondo. I did not intend to generalize all taekwondo. I apologize if I inadvertently misled you.

The Underlined Text is a Reply by a TKD Practitioner, who doesnt Practition a Sporting Form who has Learnt, and possibly been Taught this.
The Italic Text is to Verify His View, which is basically Mine, also.
The Bold Text is also what Ive been saying.

If your point is that sport focus makes taekwondo less martial and less practical, then I guess I agree, but it's really only a problem for practitioners of the Olympic style (KKW/WTF); I don't think it brings all of taekwondo down with it. I guess that goes along with what Ralph was saying about coexisting.

 

[Cyriacus]

Cyriacus, that post was much too long for me to respond to it point-by-point, so I've stuck here to those things that are in your own words and directly relating to taekwondo. There's no point in continuing a fight about e-behavior, anyway.

Yep.

Not necessarily more present, but certainly more relevant to the topic of this thread.

Yep.

If this discussion were to encompass all styles of taekwondo, then I would agree with you. But this thread is about Olympic taekwondo, and so I was speaking specifically about KKW/WTF taekwondo, many schools of which (including the KKW itself) still push this false history, which creates confusion about the art.

The Thread does - However, when one says Taekwondo, without Specifying, on this Forum, the natural assumption is to think TKD in General. Not just the one related in this Thread. Also, Ill hop back quickly to My Previous Comment about not expecting an Aikidoka to meet many TKDists; There are many Users here who do not Practice, and never have Practiced, TKD, but who Partake in the Forum. Its commonplace.
On Topic however, Yes, KKW Schools can tend to press False History. Im mainly saying that it isnt the only Art that does that, and if it suffers for it, then its more of an interconnection between those two things, than those two things causing one another.

Okay, then we agree on that. I see this point, on which we seem to agree, as evidence that the pushing of a false history negatively affects taekwondo, both as a sport and as a martial art.

Yep.

And yes, I hear this kind of history all the time from KKW/WTF schools. It is the official history according to the KKW and the WTF.
I don't think we are talking about the same thing on this point. You seem to be talking about technical elements of modern sport taekwondo that are martially impractical. I certainly agree that someone who mistakes modern sport taekwondo for life-saving self-defense techniques is kidding himself, but that's not really what I'm talking about.

This is My Other Point. Its perhaps a part of what You should be Talking about. This relates back to My Initial Reply, which regarded that You said that TKD *could* Degenerate. But the thing is, it already has.

What I'm talking about is the way sport allows taekwondo schools to avoid the trap into which so many karate schools have fallen: that of pseudo-spiritual life-coaching and fantasy playacting. If you're willing to accept that your martial art is a sport rather than some mystical, foreign spiritual tradition, you're far less likely to be led into this kind of trap.

Instead, they Teach a Sport instead of an Applicable Self Defense Form. What if You want to Learn a Combative Martial Art, and get a Sport? Two Completely Different Mindsets and Goals.

Of course I am. So is everyone else.

Incorrect, Im Afraid. I can find Examples of People Talking about TKD as a whole, despite their own Experiences. Like another User, who now Trains Hapkido. He doesnt Actively Practice TKD, but He can Discuss even the Forms of it He hasnt Done Personally, because He can and does Learn from it.

I was speaking about KKW/WTF taekwondo because that is the Olympic style, and this thread is about Olympic taekwondo. I did not intend to generalize all taekwondo. I apologize if I inadvertently misled you.

Thats Fine - To be Fair, Im not sure how long Youve been Reading this Forum. As mentioned above, Talking about TKD in General, Regardless of what the Thread refers, is pretty common. For the most Part, People will initially say KKW TKD, often at the first reference to it in their Reply, to set that Gear.

If your point is that sport focus makes taekwondo less martial and less practical, then I guess I agree, but it's really only a problem for practitioners of the Olympic style (KKW/WTF); I don't think it brings all of taekwondo down with it.

We do Agree - Though many ITF Dojangs do it as well. And other Orgs.

I guess that goes along with what Ralph was saying about coexisting.

Kind of.

*nods*

 

[ralphmcpherson]

@OWLMATT - I think a lot of this discussion would not have been necessary if instead of saying - " I've never met a person who uses what would be recognized in a dojang as taekwondo in self-defense situation" you had said - "I've never met a person who uses what would be recognized in a "KKW" dojang as taekwondo in self-defense situation. The key point here is that you are referring soley to KKW tkd when many, many tkdists dont actually do that style. To jump on a tkd board and say that tkd is no good for self defence is always going to end with a heated discussion. If you are talking soley about KKW tkd then I agree to a point, but I still think the average joe on the street would get his *** kicked by a highly skilled KKW tkdist, in fact I think the KKW guy would probably kick them 3 times before the average guy would even know he is in a fight, those guys kick lightening fast and their kicks hurt. But generally I agree that KKW tkd does not appear to be completely geared toward self efence. Other forms of tkd are a completely different story.

 

[Cyriacus]

And as for Rudeness, consider that You said;
"Irrelevant, baseless insult. Borderline trolling."
"(1) he is courteous and not condescending, (2) he cites actual experience, (3) he makes no uninformed assumptions, (4) he refrains from personal attacks, and (5) he does not quickdraw -rep."
"You were in such a hurry to call me an idiot that you misread my post and jumped to some very wrong conclusions."
"If you'd like to continue this conversation like a grown-up, I'm listening."

As a Response to;
"That aside, You must have a Truly Strange Idea of what Self Defense is, You Poor Soul."
"You also seem to be Confused."
The First Statement isnt exactly an Assault.
The Second Statement is Accurate if Read with the Knowledge in Mind that We all arent going to assume You mean KKW WTF TKD. Other Users did the same, and They werent being Rude, apparently.

For I am Clearly a Very Rude Person, who Misread Everything.