Sport And TMA....Again

Hanzou said:


We're diverging from the point. The point is that when we enter an actual fight situation, the standing opponents clinch, and then attempt to take each other to the ground and attempt to dominate each other.
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By actual fight situation you are describing is either a sporting contest, a fight between 2 people who do MMA (or BJJ) or two unskilled opponents. Both of those last two can look the same to someone who does not know much about MMA or BJJ. That is half of your problem, trying to make sense of martial arts like Aikido and Goju and not truly understanding what you are actually looking at.
 
Hanzou said:
It happened in that Aikido vs MMA vid, It happened at the UFC, it's happened in numerous street fighting vids, and it happens in boxing and MMA. It happens over and over again.
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Where do people clinch and go to the ground in boxing? There are thousands of UFC fights that end in a standing position hell there are awesome knockout compilation clips with standing KO after KO after KO. Thousands of YouTube clips of fights that never go to the ground. You know the same you tube that if its not there it didn't happen according to you.
 
ballen0351 said:
Where do people clinch and go to the ground in boxing? There are thousands of UFC fights that end in a standing position hell there are awesome knockout compilation clips with standing KO after KO after KO. Thousands of YouTube clips of fights that never go to the ground. You know the same you tube that if its not there it didn't happen according to you.
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They don't go to the ground because they can't. However they do clinch, constantly. I'm sure if they were allowed to do takedowns, they would.
 
Hanzou said:
They don't go to the ground because they can't. However they do clinch, constantly. I'm sure if they were allowed to do takedowns, they would.
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I'm confused now since just a few posts up you said they do clinch and go down to gain control. Now you say they cant.
 
Is this 75 page novel all about the whole "All fights go to the ground" Gracie nutridder fantasy? Sheesh.
Wasn't this debunked years ago? People still believe this claptrap?
Oy Vey!
 
ballen0351 said:
Why yes even boxers wish they could take people down but sadly they cant
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Might want to, but in the Sport of Boxing there are rules.
[h=2]Rules[/h]
  1. To be a fair stand-up boxing match in a 24-foot ring, or as near that size as practicable.
  2. No wrestling or hugging (clinching) allowed.
  3. The rounds to be of three minutes' duration, and one minute's time between rounds.
  4. If either man falls through weakness or otherwise, he must get up unassisted, 10 seconds to be allowed him to do so, the other man meanwhile to return to his corner, and when the fallen man is on his legs the round is to be resumed and continued until the three minutes have expired. If one man fails to come to the scratch in the 10 seconds allowed, it shall be in the power of the referee to give his award in favour of the other man.
  5. A man hanging on the ropes in a helpless state, with his toes off the ground, shall be considered down.
  6. No seconds or any other person to be allowed in the ring during the rounds.
  7. Should the contest be stopped by any unavoidable interference, the referee to name the time and place as soon as possible for finishing the contest; so that the match must be won and lost, unless the backers of both men agree to draw the stakes.
  8. The gloves to be fair-sized boxing gloves of the best quality and new.
  9. Should a glove burst, or come off, it must be replaced to the referee's satisfaction.
  10. A man on one knee is considered down and if struck is entitled to the stakes.
  11. That no shoes or boots with spikes or sprigs be allowed.
  12. The contest in all other respects to be governed by revised London Prize Ring Rules.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquess_of_Queensberry_Rules

I like #2. No Cuddling. :lol:

The boxers might want to try a take down. They might also want to kick the other guy in the junk with a pair of Irainian Bedroom Slippers. But the rules prevent that. Just like the UFC rules are designed to work against TMA.

The following acts constitute fouls in a contest or exhibition of mixed martial arts and may result in penalties, at the discretion of thereferee, if committed:

  1. Butting with the head
  2. Eye gouging of any kind
  3. Biting
  4. Spitting at an opponent
  5. Hair pulling
  6. Fish hooking
  7. Groin attacks of any kind
  8. Putting a finger into any orifice or any cut or laceration of an opponent
  9. Small joint manipulation
  10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow
  11. Striking to the spine or the back of the head
  12. Kicking to the kidney with a heel
  13. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea
  14. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh
  15. Grabbing the clavicle
  16. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent
  17. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent
  18. Stomping a grounded opponent
  19. Holding the fence
  20. Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent
  21. Using abusive language in fenced ring/fighting area
  22. Engaging in any unsportsmanlike conduct that causes injury to an opponent
  23. Attacking an opponent on or during the break
  24. Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee
  25. Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the round
  26. Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury
  27. Throwing opponent out of ring/fighting area
  28. Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee
  29. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck
  30. Interference by the corner
  31. Applying any foreign substance to the hair or body to gain an advantage
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http://www.ufc.com/discover/sport/rules-and-regulations

Now how many of those things such as elbow strikes, small joint manipulations, etc are key components to the TMA?

Lets try a reversal. New UFC rule - No Takedowns. If a fighter falls or is knocked down, they get a 10 count like in boxing. :lol:
 
jks9199 said:
Most anything done "live and under pressure" ends up looking considerably sloppier than when done on a complaint partner...
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Which should, by this point, go without saying. However, I've watched how this thread evolved so maybe it does require saying after all. :P

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 
TFP said:
You're late to the party, but.........


How were the "rules" of the early UFC's biased against "traditional" martial arts
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What about it Gracie won 50% of the 1st 6 UFCs. Good for him what's it prove? That Gracie was a great fighter with in the UFC rules
 
Kframe said:
I was wondering when this would pop up. The inevitable "well he was a crappy mixed martial artist" statement.
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It's one thing when a fanboi says, "he was no good on the ground." It's another thing when an experienced, trained, certified grappling instructor says it. One means it's just a fanboi and may or may not be accurate. The other qualifies as an informed statement of fact.

I mean, if I were to tell you that the water pump on your car is bad, then, at the very least, go get a second opinion from a pro because I'm just a guy who shade-tree-mechanic'd some years back. But if I tell you that your Linux kernel is old and full of bugs and vulnerabilities then you'd better darn well install a new kernel or start filling out the Incident Report.

Steve is an expert in ground grappling. If he says the other guy wasn't doing very well, then he wasn't.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 
ballen0351 said:
No they don't your just wrong.
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Very frequently, yes, they actually do. This especially happens when one guy starts losing the stand-up fight and starts getting his face beaten in. It's natural. Clinches happen all the time when one fighter (or both) get tired. It's dirt common in Boxing. Takedown-to-groundfight is also a lot more common now than many realize because of the influence of MMA.

Sorry, but, now. He's not wrong, it does happen with regularity. All the time? Obviously not. 90% of the time? Not likely. 10% of the time? Also not likely. How often? Hard to say: http://cbd.atspace.com/articles/90percentmyth/90percentmyth.html

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 
ballen0351 said:
What about it Gracie won 50% of the 1st 6 UFCs. Good for him what's it prove? That Gracie was a great fighter with in the UFC rules
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This is a great stat considering he only fought in 4 UFC tournaments, winning 3 and unable to continue in one after winning vs Kimo....... But I guess counting 6 makes your stat sound better.:ticked:
 
ballen0351 said:
Where do people clinch and go to the ground in boxing?
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Glad you asked.

http://www.lulu.com/shop/kirk-lawso...m-2nd-edition/paperback/product-18632709.html

product_thumbnail.php


Boxing used to be chock full of takedowns, trips, throws, chokes, and even (gasp!) pressure point attacks.

But, aside from a few hundred years of boxing history, even in modern boxing, boxers clinch all the time when one of them is tired and needs a rest or one of them is just tired of getting hit.
 
The Last Legionary said:
Might want to, but in the Sport of Boxing there are rules.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquess_of_Queensberry_Rules
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You might want to expand into other Boxing rules as well, such as the predecessors to MoQ, Broughton's rules and the London Prize Ring rules both of which allowed grappling, chokes, trips, throws, and a lot of "dirty boxing" by today's standards.

I like #2. No Cuddling. :lol:
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"Hugging" in context actually referred to wrestling. Cornish "Close Hugg Wrestling" was an important wrestling style of the time and appears as part of a rough-and-tumble "fighting for bouncers" kinda wrestling and boxing manual titled, "Inn-Play" by an aristocrat named Parkyns in 1727.

The boxers might want to try a take down. They might also want to kick the other guy in the junk with a pair of Irainian Bedroom Slippers.
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Which was legal in some Boxing rules, particularly what we know of prior to Broughton.
Now how many of those things such as elbow strikes, small joint manipulations, etc are key components to the TMA?
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Elbow strikes were common in Boxing, as was the backfist, and the spinning backfist. There was also elbow locks and no-gi chokes.

Lets try a reversal. New UFC rule - No Takedowns. If a fighter falls or is knocked down, they get a 10 count like in boxing.
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Which boxing? You seem to think there was only one form. That's a little like thinking there's only one form of Karate and it's named Tae Kwon Do. :P
 
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