Sport And TMA....Again

[MJS]

I was under the impression that we were having a discussion about martial arts. Its not about whether I care what people are doing or not doing.

Well, it is about whether or not you care, when you make the comments that you're making. Furthermore, I'm not the only one that's saying it to you. K-Man has pointed it out many times. You just don't want to admit it. Additionally, I really haven't seen too many on topic posts from you. Your current ones are the same nature that you've made in that other thread.

 

[Spinedoc]

This wasn't at "an event". The accounts I heard were streetlights/self defense matters (I know Chris says the Gracies sand GJJ doesn't actual do this). I will try and find the interviews again, but basically the main one was outside a night club.

Well, unless it was on a youtube video, it can't have happened.....:roflmao:

 

[MJS]

Yes standup arts have there place for sure! I love standup arts!!!

Thing is, there is rarely an art-vs-art battle anymore as most arts are cross training. BJJ is head and shoulders above IMO, but it is far from complete. I've stated before my disdain for BJJ's failure to emphasize wrestling type takedowns.

I've also stated way back when in this thread that I think a seasoned, athletic, standup fighter would most likely beat your average sport BJJ Blue Belt.

Ok, thank you for your reply! Let me ask you this...why do you feel that the seasoned stand up fighter would beat the average BJJ blue belt? Due to lack of experience in the finer points of BJJ? What if it was a BJJ purple?

 

[MJS]

Just a quick off topic note. I believe the yelling comments stemmed from the all caps, not the bold color.

Back to our regularly scheduled cluster.

 

[MJS]

no, that is an actual fact. It's been discussed and documented over and over as the reason the Gracies stopped fighting in the UFC.


So, what is the real reason why they stopped fighting?

 

[TFP]

Well, unless it was on a youtube video, it can't have happened.....:roflmao:

Touche':highfive:

 

[TFP]

Ok, thank you for your reply! Let me ask you this...why do you feel that the seasoned stand up fighter would beat the average BJJ blue belt? Due to lack of experience in the finer points of BJJ? What if it was a BJJ purple?

IMO it's more a sport vs. Fighting experience issue than it is a BJJ as an art issue.

I feel that BJJ is getting very watered down with the insane growth of Sport BJJ. I think someone who is athletic and has actually been in some serious fights whom has some skill is going to be dangerous for your average Blue Belt to contain and control.

You have to realize that the scene in a BJJ gym in North America is vastly different than one in Brazil. In BJJ and even MMA gyms you used to have young 20 year old Lions, now you mostly have 35yr old office workers.

The whole business model/ way of running a BJJ program has changed drastically because of this.


No, a purple IMO would do pretty well! Most Blues don't have to go hard vs Browns and up, are somewhat coddled, purples are thrown to the fire over and over vs. Browns and Blacks.


This is all just opinion of course!

 

[TFP]

I find it easier to cut and paste the

b



Ok then lets compare Kimo (no formal martial arts training) to all the other fighters in the first round of UFC 3.

Sure! First off I'm not sure if just UFC's 1 and 2 were a lottery bracket (meaning random seeding) or if UFC 3 was also random or if they were chosen Brackets.

i would guess chosen as it seems they wanted Royce on one side and Ken in the other.

now onto Kimo was not untrained in martial arts. He was actually a very accomplished amateur wrestler and played college football as a Linebacker and was a known street fighter. Now on Royce's side was Kimo Who we discussed and Harold Howard who IMO was a stud and a very accomplished fighter with a wealth of experience actually competing on a national level in both Karate and Jiu-Jitsu! He was 6'2", 240lbs. ( I really wish we could have seen him and Royce go at it both fresh. I think he would of given Royce a run for his money). The guy was a Jiu-Jitsu champion and instructor to go along with his standup fighting and he was simple a game fighter.

thats a tough Bracket!

now on the other side you had Ken, Yarbough ( somewhat a joke), Keith Hackney (similar to Howard IMO) and Leninger a legit competitor and grappler.

i honestly think both sides of the Bracket were very even. And if you look at the history you would have to agree. Hackney, Kimo, Royce, Ken all went on to have success in the UFC and NHB.

 

[TFP]

Also
for the post to MJS (you can't edit your posts after 60 minutes on this site!?!?). I wanted to mention that as an average Blue Belt most have not mastered there holds yet in a live roll let alone a real hyper aggressive adrenaline rush of a real fight where someone is trying to hurt you! As an average Blue you are getting good at defending and positional dominance tho.

 

[Hanzou]

Also
for the post to MJS (you can't edit your posts after 60 minutes on this site!?!?). I wanted to mention that as an average Blue Belt most have not mastered there holds yet in a live roll let alone a real hyper aggressive adrenaline rush of a real fight where someone is trying to hurt you! As an average Blue you are getting good at defending and positional dominance tho.

Yeah, that's incorrect. By the time you reach Blue belt, you should have been in Bjj for about 2 years. The stuff you're talking about (learning holds in a live roll, getting good at defending, positional dominance) is handled while you're a white belt. In my school, 2-3 stripe Blue belts are pretty much junior instructors, teaching brand new students the basics.

If you're going to a Bjj school worth its salt, you should be able to handle most SD situations by the time you hit Blue.

 

[MJS]

IMO it's more a sport vs. Fighting experience issue than it is a BJJ as an art issue.

I feel that BJJ is getting very watered down with the insane growth of Sport BJJ. I think someone who is athletic and has actually been in some serious fights whom has some skill is going to be dangerous for your average Blue Belt to contain and control.

You have to realize that the scene in a BJJ gym in North America is vastly different than one in Brazil. In BJJ and even MMA gyms you used to have young 20 year old Lions, now you mostly have 35yr old office workers.

The whole business model/ way of running a BJJ program has changed drastically because of this.


No, a purple IMO would do pretty well! Most Blues don't have to go hard vs Browns and up, are somewhat coddled, purples are thrown to the fire over and over vs. Browns and Blacks.


This is all just opinion of course!

Also
for the post to MJS (you can't edit your posts after 60 minutes on this site!?!?). I wanted to mention that as an average Blue Belt most have not mastered there holds yet in a live roll let alone a real hyper aggressive adrenaline rush of a real fight where someone is trying to hurt you! As an average Blue you are getting good at defending and positional dominance tho.

Thanks for your replies! Regarding what you said in the difference between the gyms here and Brazil, do you feel that that would make a difference with the blue belts there or about the same as here? As for the forum posts...yes, there is a time limit. It's interesting what you say about the blues though. I get the impression from other posts, that a blue is going to be just as much as a terror as a higher rank.

 

[TFP]

Yeah, that's incorrect. By the time you reach Blue belt, you should have been in Bjj for about 2 years. The stuff you're talking about (learning holds in a live roll, getting good at defending, positional dominance) is handled while you're a white belt. In my school, 2-3 stripe Blue belts are pretty much junior instructors, teaching brand new students the basics.

If you're going to a Bjj school worth its salt, you should be able to handle most SD situations by the time you hit Blue.

Lol, it's interesting that you mention a school worth it's salt and in the same breath mention blue belts as "junior instructors". IMO that's kinda an oxymoron. Unless your talking about having a couple seasoned Blues take the brand new guys aside to teach them some very basic fundamentals so that the knew guys don't hold up the rest of the class.

i guess really it just depends on the quality of the school, the number of colored belts, etc. But no, having Blue belts teach moves does in fact not speak highly of the "salt if your school".

now I could go and find sources of numerous high level guys stating what you should be focusing on as a blue and what the blue belt level is all about and it's exactly what I said. You should know your positional defense and escapes and have a good grasp of submission defense. Now of course in the typical North American culture of instant gratification you have a ton if white belts and early blue belts working on there Berimbolo and inverted Del la Riva guards..... And not focusing on there basic techniques.

But it this doesn't change the fact about what a Blue Belt should be.

 

[TFP]

Thanks for your replies! Regarding what you said in the difference between the gyms here and Brazil, do you feel that that would make a difference with the blue belts there or about the same as here? As for the forum posts...yes, there is a time limit. It's interesting what you say about the blues though. I get the impression from other posts, that a blue is going to be just as much as a terror as a higher rank.

Imo the Blues in Brazil for the most part are much better, much more seasoned and take a lot longer to get. The whole way belts are given out is changing for North America!

How could anyone think a Blue Belt is going to be as much of a terror as a Purple or Brown!? I mean if course there are some stud Blues out there who beat Purples and gives Browns a good roll. But if your gym is doing it right, no the Blues arnt beating up on the Purples and Browns.

remember the time someone is at each belt is important to keep in mind! Each belt color is a couple years to get thru, so one Blue May be 3 months into that color as another Blue is a year and a half. Those two blues should be vastly different in skill.

BLUE BELT-

<________1____________________________2___________>

fighter 2 is so much farther along in his Blue Belt experience than fighter 1. They are both Blue but there skill
le so should be different.

dont get me wrong, blue belts are tough for sure and have learned enough to defend themselves against untrained attackers for sure. I'm not saying your average Blue Belt can't defend himself or won't choke you out.

Im im saying your average North American Blue belt who comes in to train 2 maybe 3 times a week for an hour each time and who has never been in an actual fight may be in for a surprise.

 

[MJS]

Imo the Blues in Brazil for the most part are much better, much more seasoned and take a lot longer to get. The whole way belts are given out is changing for North America!

I'd say you're probably spot on. I'd say the same thing about the stand up arts as well. During my journey, up until 2yrs, ago, all of my teachers were American. My current teacher is Japanese. He's definitely old school. What you said about the belts in Brazil, holds true for my teacher.

How could anyone think a Blue Belt is going to be as much of a terror as a Purple or Brown!? I mean if course there are some stud Blues out there who beat Purples and gives Browns a good roll. But if your gym is doing it right, no the Blues arnt beating up on the Purples and Browns.

LOL! How could anyone think that? All you have to do is just read a few of the posts in this thread, and you'll see it. And to clarify, I'm not part of a BJJ gym...at least not currently. Down the road..who knows.

remember the time someone is at each belt is important to keep in mind! Each belt color is a couple years to get thru, so one Blue May be 3 months into that color as another Blue is a year and a half. Those two blues should be vastly different in skill.

BLUE BELT-

<________1____________________________2___________>

fighter 2 is so much farther along in his Blue Belt experience than fighter 1. They are both Blue but there skill
le so should be different.

dont get me wrong, blue belts are tough for sure and have learned enough to defend themselves against untrained attackers for sure. I'm not saying your average Blue Belt can't defend himself or won't choke you out.

Im im saying your average North American Blue belt who comes in to train 2 maybe 3 times a week for an hour each time and who has never been in an actual fight may be in for a surprise.

Ok.

 

[Hanzou]

Lol, it's interesting that you mention a school worth it's salt and in the same breath mention blue belts as "junior instructors". IMO that's kinda an oxymoron. Unless your talking about having a couple seasoned Blues take the brand new guys aside to teach them some very basic fundamentals so that the knew guys don't hold up the rest of the class.

That's exactly what I said. Also that shouldn't be too far out of the ordinary since a purple belt (the belt after blue) can teach a class of white and blue belts.

Hence;

Purple belt is the intermediate adult ranking in Brazilian jiu-jitsu.[SUP][2][/SUP] The purple belt level practitioner has gained a large amount of knowledge, and purple belts are generally considered qualified to instruct lower ranked students. In other martial arts, students with a similar amount of experience are often ranked as a black (instructor) level belt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_jiu-jitsu_ranking_system

i guess really it just depends on the quality of the school, the number of colored belts, etc. But no, having Blue belts teach moves does in fact not speak highly of the "salt if your school".

Yet you just said this;

Unless your talking about having a couple seasoned Blues take the brand new guys aside to teach them some very basic fundamentals so that the knew guys don't hold up the rest of the class.

So which is it chief?

now I could go and find sources of numerous high level guys stating what you should be focusing on as a blue and what the blue belt level is all about and it's exactly what I said. You should know your positional defense and escapes and have a good grasp of submission defense. Now of course in the typical North American culture of instant gratification you have a ton if white belts and early blue belts working on there Berimbolo and inverted Del la Riva guards..... And not focusing on there basic techniques.

But it this doesn't change the fact about what a Blue Belt should be.

A Blue belt should be able to handle themselves in most SD situations...

Unless your school puts out substandard blue belts.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Attention all users:

Threads such as this one have a tendency to get people fired up. This is not a bad thing. Not at all. Passion is good.

However, when those passions lead to people ignoring that banner up there that says "Friendly Martial Arts Community", they need to be curbed in.

This thread has resulted in quite a few reported posts. The members of the moderation team have posted several reminders and attempted to nudge the thread back into the realm of friendly discussion.

In short, the sniping, the pot shots and the general unfriendliness need to stop.

Thank you,

Mark Cochran
Dirty Dog
MT Senior Moderator

 

[TFP]

That's exactly what I said. Also that shouldn't be too far out of the ordinary since a purple belt (the belt after blue) can teach a class of white and blue belts.
Maybe I miss understood you. I think of "junior instructor" as someone who teaches, not the most trusted couple Blues who can take a few noobs aside.




Yet you just said this;

yes a purple can teach, not really a Blue unless your school is lacking higher belts. Thus your school isn't as "Salty" as it should be!


So which is it chief?

Purple teach, Blue.......... Not so much


A Blue belt should be able to handle themselves in most SD situations...

Unless your school puts out substandard blue belts.


[/Qthey maybe "should be able to" but I honestly question if they can. It's not a slight on BJJUOTE]

 

[TFP]

Attention all users:

Threads such as this one have a tendency to get people fired up. This is not a bad thing. Not at all. Passion is good.

However, when those passions lead to people ignoring that banner up there that says "Friendly Martial Arts Community", they need to be curbed in.

This thread has resulted in quite a few reported posts. The members of the moderation team have posted several reminders and attempted to nudge the thread back into the realm of friendly discussion.

In short, the sniping, the pot shots and the general unfriendliness need to stop.

Thank you,

Mark Cochran
Dirty Dog
MT Senior Moderator

Sounds good, I'm slowly learning what is Ok and what isn't.

 

[TFP]

Really awesome VID I just found. Some of younmay have seen it, but it's new to me.

Two neat things here....

1. A great example of how most fights actually go to the ground. You have two of the premier Kung Fu fighters in the world and the fight hits the ground over and over and over.

2. Watch till the end to see why being on the ground ain't always a good thing.

[YT]xnfDeUJkXrQ[/YT]


Badass one armed Akido fighter putting it on line in a NHB fight.
[YT]pLqovX4G8Z0[/YT]

 

[Spinedoc]

Really awesome VID I just found. Some of younmay have seen it, but it's new to me.

Two neat things here....

1. A great example of how most fights actually go to the ground. You have two of the premier Kung Fu fighters in the world and the fight hits the ground over and over and over.

2. Watch till the end to see why being on the ground ain't always a good thing.

[YT]xnfDeUJkXrQ[/YT]


Badass one armed Akido fighter putting it on line in a NHB fight.
[YT]pLqovX4G8Z0[/YT]

You need to show the conclusion to that one armed Aikido fighters fight......Check it out.....pretty bad ***.