Sport And TMA....Again

[Hanzou]

Yes and matching up Royce Gracie with a boxer silly enough to have one boxing glove and no grappling experience whatsoever, who tapped at the first sign of trouble, whilst matching up Gerrad Gordeu (a striker who almost won the whole event) with 400lb man mountain in the first UFC, that wasn't giving him the easy road at all was it?

That "silly boxer" was a National Golden Gloves champion, and had a record of 29-5 when he fought Gracie at UFC 1. Yeah, he got tooled on the ground, because he never trained to fight on the ground. You really expect a boxer to learn ground fighting?

The idea that Gerrad Gordeu "almost won the whole event" when he tapped out to Gracie in less than 2 minutes is a pretty silly. Once they hit the canvas, it was all over.

There are accounts of GJJ guys not going for joint locks, but instead blood chokes because there attackers/opponents would have to much adrenaline and continue to attempt to fight with the broken arm, There also reports of the Gracies getting tired of there attacker/opponents "surrendering", the Gracies letting go of the hold only to have that opponents continue to want to fight.

The solution? They would blood choke the guy out, then snap his arm while he was asleep.

That makes sense, especially since air chokes tend to cause the opponent to panic. Blood chokes tend to be a lot quicker and smoother.

Snapping their arms while they sleep is pretty messed up though. Sounds like something Relson would do.

 

[RTKDCMB]

You transition into a body lock or a pin if you still need to maintain control. If not, you can release, and take a walk.

And then he can be free to attack you again.

 

[RTKDCMB]

The solution? They would blood choke the guy out, then snap his arm while he was asleep.

And then it would go from self defence to assault.

 

[Hanzou]

And then he can be free to attack you again.

Possibly, but possibly not. It all depends on the situation. If you really think this guy is going to come at you again, then put him to sleep. Choking someone out is the most humane way of taking someone out of a fight completely.

I would only cripple someone if it was a last resort.

 

[RTKDCMB]

That "silly boxer" was a National Golden Gloves champion, and had a record of 29-5 when he fought Gracie at UFC 1. Yeah, he got tooled on the ground, because he never trained to fight on the ground. You really expect a boxer to learn ground fighting?

He may have been an impressive boxer but he was still silly enough to enter a nhb event against a seasoned grappler wearing a single boxing glove.

The idea that Gerrad Gordeu "almost won the whole event" when he tapped out to Gracie in less than 2 minutes is a pretty silly. Once they hit the canvas, it was all over.

You do understand the meaning of the word 'almost' don't you? I would say winning every fight except for the last one to be almost winning the event.

 

[Hanzou]

He may have been an impressive boxer but he was still silly enough to enter a nhb event against a seasoned grappler wearing a single boxing glove.

Cut the guy some slack. No one was really doing ground work back then, not even the arts that had ground work within them. That's how Bjj dominated that tournament; NO ONE was prepared for it.

You do understand the meaning of the word 'almost' don't you? I would say winning every fight except for the last one to be almost winning the event.

Not when he gets completely dominated in the last fight.

 

[TFP]

Ooh, shouting. Fun.
Sorry, I honestly didn't know you guys here took that as "yelling". It was just easier to do that than this silly color stuff.

"One of those guys"? A realist? Sure, yeah, I am. My research and study is into actual, real world violence. And, for the record, I hardly changed my stance mid-sentence, as I'd already said it previously (page 60, post 865). And there are always rules, so no, the idea that "THERE WERE NO RULES!!!!" is frankly marketing, and not reality.
lol, so silly IMO.

That's right, it's not a self defence situation, it's a challenge match. It's a step up from what's referred to as the Monkey Dance, and is a form of social violence as opposed to asocial violence (familiar with those terms? If not, you might be a little out of luck in this conversation...). It's not self defence. It's just poor decision making if you actually go out to meet the guy.
fair enough. But IMO if you choose to fight and defend yourself that is also a "self defense" situation.



I agree that it sounds bizarre, but, well, yeah.
hmm....



Er... you did note where I said it wouldn't "immediately defeat a grappler", yeah? And your use of a fishhook doesn't really come into it... as you could only have used it in a grappling situation (close, clinch work).
yeah sure, but point is it happened.


You really should remember that I was talking about the initial set-up, yeah? It was an alien aspect of the environment, so such things simply weren't done, but it was used by the grappling/groundfighting competitors.

ok

Yep... and what happened? Did you listen to Ken afterwards?

what? That b.s. About thinking Royce was a Karate guy? Total B.S. Jason Delucia warned Ken backstage before the fight about the Gracies and there were TV's in the locker rooms for Ken to watch Royce's first fight.
Nice try, but that doesn't change the fact that Royce did not have the easy road that alot of people would like to claim he did.

Ha! Really? Nope.
no, that is an actual fact. It's been discussed and documented over and over as the reason the Gracies stopped fighting in the UFC.



How about you read things a little closer, then? What I said was that grappling does not mean ground fighting, not that ground fighting isn't grappling... subtle, I know... you might also note that your definitions don't state anything about groundwork either.... in fact, they specifically state "struggle between unarmed contestants who try to throw each other down"... which you can't do unless you're standing, of course. Good try, though.

No, those both spoke of wrestling, which is ground fighting. It's fun to hide behind "subtlies" but it doesn't make you look good.







Sure.

true story. I'm a fight promoter/Ref/Judge

 

[TFP]

If the average ground fighter is going to insist on taking another person to the ground in a self defense situation he/she had better be prepared for more things going wrong than right. A person in a street fight isn't going to tap or yell uncle so you better be prepared to injure them in some form or fashion (if you can even manage to get them in a proper lock). If they have a weapon such as a pocket knife and they are able to get to it good luck to you and if there are multiple attackers willing to jump in you are likely to get hurt badly.......

Now I know what the response will be....."We train for those situations" and my response is a simple "I doubt it". The majority of BJJ guys have been lured into a false sense of reality because the Gracie's had some success (mostly in a controlled environment)

Decent point IMO.

 

[TFP]

Once they tap, what happens?

Well that is 100% up to the grappler. Reread that! 100% up to the guy who is 100% in control. Like I already stated, the Gracies used to finish the blood choke, then snap the arm of the unconcious attacker so he doesn't wake up embaressed and seek another go-round.

 

[TFP]

That makes sense, especially since air chokes tend to cause the opponent to panic. Blood chokes tend to be a lot quicker and smoother.

Snapping their arms while they sleep is pretty messed up though. Sounds like something Relson would do.

Ha or Ryan!!!! Had to do with fighting someone, beating him by choking him out and then them waking up, embarrassed and pissed and re attacking the Gracie fighter. Maybe a pimp outside a club was the first......

 

[RTKDCMB]

just easier hitting bold than doing these colors.

I find it easier to cut and paste the

bits at the beginning and end of each remark you want to respond to.

ok, what if you walk outside and someone is waiting for you and says he is going to beat you up?

People say a lot of things, until first attack has begun there is an opportunity to avoid violence but if you believe there is an imminent danger of them attacking you then you can physically defend yourself and then it will be self defence.

See I'm not the one that made the "easy road claim, you are!

Nope, wasn't me. The one you were referring to was Chris Parker's post that you responded to in post 1016

You can bring up Gerrards match ups all you want but you will fail miserably in your attempt. Teli had little to no actual combat experience and did not go onto become one of the best early UFC fighters of all time, get into the UFC Hall of Fame and is known as a legend of the sport. Sorry bud, no way to compare Teli to Ken Shamrock.

Ok then lets compare Kimo (no formal martial arts training) to all the other fighters in the first round of UFC 3.

 

[RTKDCMB]

If you really think this guy is going to come at you again, then put him to sleep.

So why don't you just do that in the first place?

 

[RTKDCMB]

Well that is 100% up to the grappler. Reread that! 100% up to the guy who is 100% in control. Like I already stated, the Gracies used to finish the blood choke, then snap the arm of the unconcious attacker so he doesn't wake up embaressed and seek another go-round.

Nobody is ever 100% in control, that kind of control is an illusion.

 

[Hanzou]

So why don't you just do that in the first place?

Because even that isn't necessary all of the time. Sometimes a simple pin or submission will do the trick.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I'd just like to point out that its pretty hard to reach for a pocket knife when your arms are controlled.

The problem is what occurs before the arms are controlled.

 

[K-man]

Well that is 100% up to the grappler. Reread that! 100% up to the guy who is 100% in control. Like I already stated, the Gracies used to finish the blood choke, then snap the arm of the unconcious attacker so he doesn't wake up embaressed and seek another go-round.

Can you provide any evidence of this? I have looked everywhere I can think of to find even one event where this happened.

 

[Hanzou]

The problem is what occurs before the arms are controlled.

This video shows the level of control you have from guard.

Its important to note that guard isn't even a dominant position.

 

[TFP]

Nobody is ever 100% in control, that kind of control is an illusion.

I've been literally 100% controlled before. I know the feeling and it literally one of themworst feeling ever, especially if the guy controlling you is not respecting the "tap".

 

[RTKDCMB]

So you think sport-based MA stylists walk around looking for fights?

Yeah 100's of YouTube videos showing challenge matches, including the many you have posted have shown that to be true.

As for TKD, I've seen instances where people get knocked out with a well placed kick to the face. I have yet to see someone get tossed through the air via an Aikido throw.

And please enlighten us on how many fights involving Aikido you have seen.

 

[TFP]

Can you provide any evidence of this? I have looked everywhere I can think of to find even one event where this happened.

This wasn't at "an event". The accounts I heard were streetlights/self defense matters (I know Chris says the Gracies sand GJJ doesn't actual do this). I will try and find the interviews again, but basically the main one was outside a night club.