Sport And TMA....Again

[K-man]

I was talking about Bjj, not Aikido.

So what you are saying is that in BJJ you need to use strength which sort of goes against the idea of it allowing a smaller less strong person overcoming a bigger stronger one. Looks like that is one up for aikido.

Last I checked, the Navy is considered military.

Last time I checked she was off a merchant ship.
http://www.thenational.ae/news/uae-news/courts/woman-sailor-thwarts-dubai-rape-attempt-with-leg-stranglehold

So all of the Aikido throws shown here;

[/I][/COLOR]

That's the one I was referring to, Koshi nage. Thank you.

Again, the only 'throw' here was Koshi nage. The rest were either what I would call takedowns or in the case of kote gaeshi where it is performed slowly, Uke diving over to take Ukemi. That is just not possible to do in a full speed scenario.

Aren't actually in Aikido?

Yes, but except for the hip throw which was also performed from the lower position, the rest are take downs. And, as I said, it is the only real throw I have learned in Aikido. For me, I don't like it all that much because it is too easy to get a reversal unless you can perform it very fast. It also is very difficult to roll out of and is the cause of the only severe injury I have seen in the time I have been training Aikido


[/I][/COLOR]Well, where are the Aikidoka competing in the UFC or MMA competitons? Where are all the videos of someone using Aikido to defend themselves in a street fight?

Give me a break! How many times do you need to be told?

Never, because my training partners are smart enough to tap. However, if they didn't tap, I would probably break their arm.

So what you are saying is that you have either never used full force or your technique is ineffective. Your choice.

So someone rushing towards you with their arm extended and hand open is viewed as a "realistic attack"?

What you are referring to here is a training technique used in Aikido. As you normally see it portrayed I agree it is not realistic. However, we don't do it that way where I train. But the original context was of sparring vs non sparring arts. My comment was how I teach karate which is identical to the attacks you would find in a Krav class.

Boxers also spar against other boxers who have the same goal in mind: Knock the other guy out.

Yes they do, and Aikidoka use other forms of training against total resistance apart from randori.

So when a trained boxer ends up in a fight with a non-boxer:

[/I][/COLOR]

It is no different to any trained martial artist against a non trained person.
Its brutally effective, and looks similar to what they do when they practice.

Where are the similar Aikido clips?
I have no desire to go looking for what may or may not exist on Youtube.

[/I][/COLOR]Pankration for starters;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pankration

Its about 2500 years old give or take a century.

There's even a cool image of a trainer overlooking two fighters sparring each other.

Now that's a really popular sport. How about something a little more mainstream?

:asian:

 

[ballen0351]

1000 coming up..............

Winner

 

[Hanzou]

Your boxer clip looks set up as a demo. Why else would they have just happened to be filming plus none of the punches actually connected. Regardless just because it is on youtube doesn't make it fact and a lack of it being on youtube doesn't mean it didn't happen

Here's a few more;

Boxer vs 3 guys

Retired boxer puts a clown to sleep

 

[ballen0351]

I'm not sure who your trying to convince here? Unlike you I see the value in all styles including boxing it worked great when the guy sucker punched the drunk dude.

 

[Hanzou]

I'm not sure who your trying to convince here? Unlike you I see the value in all styles including boxing it worked great when the guy sucker punched the drunk dude.

I'm merely pointing out that we've seen competitive styles like Boxing, Wrestling, TKD, Bjj, MT, etc. being used effectively outside the confines of the training hall. I'm curious as to why the same hasn't occurred with the non competitive styles.

 

[ballen0351]

I'm merely pointing out that we've seen competitive styles like Boxing, Wrestling, TKD, Bjj, MT, etc. being used effectively outside the confines of the training hall. I'm curious as to why the same hasn't occurred with the non competitive styles.

So because its not on YouTube is hasn't happened? I know for a fact people have used Goju sorry it didn't end up on YouTube for you

 

[Hanzou]

So what you are saying is that in BJJ you need to use strength which sort of goes against the idea of it allowing a smaller less strong person overcoming a bigger stronger one. Looks like that is one up for aikido.

Strength isn't the source of force the body can generate.

Last time I checked she was off a merchant ship.

They updated the story. What's your point again?

Again, the only 'throw' here was Koshi nage. The rest were either what I would call takedowns or in the case of kote gaeshi where it is performed slowly, Uke diving over to take Ukemi. That is just not possible to do in a full speed scenario.

So, Entering throw (Iriminage), Heaven-and-earth throw (Techinage), and Rotary throw (Kateinage) aren't throws?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aikido_techniques

So what you are saying is that you have either never used full force or your technique is ineffective. Your choice.

The full force was used to get the submission. Additionally, getting your opponent to submit also indicates that your technique was effective.

What you are referring to here is a training technique used in Aikido. As you normally see it portrayed I agree it is not realistic. However, we don't do it that way where I train.

How did I know you were going to say that.

I have no desire to go looking for what may or may not exist on Youtube.

Too bad, because an Aikidoka or a Ninja tossing around bad guys like rag dolls would be a Youtube sensation.

Now that's a really popular sport. How about something a little more mainstream?

Would you prefer Muay Thai?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muay_Thai

 

[K-man]

I'm merely pointing out that we've seen competitive styles like Boxing, Wrestling, TKD, Bjj, MT, etc. being used effectively outside the confines of the training hall. I'm curious as to why the same hasn't occurred with the non competitive styles.

In actual fact under adrenal dump most people go straight to flailing fists, even trained people. The secret is to survive the first few seconds to regain composure before most people can use techniques they have learned. That is the principle used by non competitive styles like Krav and Systema. But are you really trying to say that you don't see karate, aikido, Kung fu, Ninjutsu, Krav, Systema etc used in the real world.
:bs:

 

[Hanzou]

So because its not on YouTube is hasn't happened? I know for a fact people have used Goju sorry it didn't end up on YouTube for you

There's plenty of karate street fight vids on YT. Karate is karate to most people, I'm sure some of those vids showcase a Goju practitioner or two.

 

[Hanzou]

In actual fact under adrenal dump most people go straight to flailing fists, even trained people. The secret is to survive the first few seconds to regain composure before most people can use techniques they have learned. That is the principle used by non competitive styles like Krav and Systema. But are you really trying to say that you don't see karate, aikido, Kung fu, Ninjutsu, Krav, Systema etc used in the real world.

These guys must have controlled the dump;

http://youtu.be/-eywhQ6_mu0
http://youtu.be/eKB-BEtVR8g
http://youtu.be/4PFkea7hm2g

 

[ballen0351]

There's plenty of karate street fight vids on YT. Karate is karate to most people, I'm sure some of those vids showcase a Goju practitioner or two.

So then your saying there are videos of nonsport arts being used? So what's the point?

 

[Hanzou]

So then your saying there are videos of nonsport arts being used? So what's the point?

Since when is Karate nonsport?

Goju-Ryu competition right there.

 

[K-man]

[/I][/COLOR]
Strength isn't the source of force the body can generate.

Care to elaborate? Body weight is also force.

[/I][/COLOR]
They updated the story. What's your point again?

They updated the story before the article was posted on MT. I checked the original source at the time, you did not, obviously. Perhaps you should check your facts before posting or do you subscribe to the theory of not letting the facts get in the way of a good story?

[/I][/COLOR]So, Entering throw (Iriminage), Heaven-and-earth throw (Techinage), and Rotary throw (Kateinage) aren't throws?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aikido_techniques
None of them are throws. They are takedowns. Iriminage is a straight takedown in normal application. If you want to get serious you can break the neck. Tenchi Nage similar leading to ground control. I have never heard of Kateinage. However if it was Kaiten nage you are quoting, it is either a straight takedown or continues to a shoulder dislocation. I wish you would stick to things you know about. Certainly you wouldn't post so much crap if you did that.

[/I][/COLOR]The full force was used to get the submission. Additionally, getting your opponent to submit also indicates that your technique was effective.

If using full force only gets submission your technique is ineffective. Full force should destroy the joint.i

[/I][/COLOR]How did I know you were going to say that.

Because you have never seen a proper dojo. In Aikido we attack with two hands always. If we did the one hand stuff we would be told to attack properly. In Karate, Krav and Systema, which I teach, no one would even think about attacking like that.

[/I][/COLOR]Too bad, because an Aikidoka or a Ninja tossing around bad guys like rag dolls would be a Youtube sensation.

Really?

[/I][/COLOR]Would you prefer Muay Thai?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muay_Thai

From your source;

Muay boran, and therefore muay Thai, was originally called by more generic names such as pahuyuth (from the Sanskrit bahu-yuddha meaning unarmed combat), Toi muay or simply muay. As well as being a practical fighting technique for use in actual warfare, muay became a sport in which the opponents fought in front of spectators who went to watch for entertainment.

Muay Thai was not designed for sport.

:asian:

 

[K-man]

Since when is Karate nonsport?

Goju-Ryu competition right there.

Traditional Goju karate in non sport. The sporting side of Goju came via Gogen Yamaguchi in Japan. Kyokushin came via there as well. Please check you facts before posting rubbish. Traditional karate is all non sport.
:asian:

 

[Hanzou]

Care to elaborate? Body weight is also force.

Exactly.

They updated the story before the article was posted on MT. I checked the original source at the time, you did not, obviously. Perhaps you should check your facts before posting or do you subscribe to the theory of not letting the facts get in the way of a good story?

The point of that story was a woman defending herself from a rapist using the Triangle Choke. Her occupation is pretty irrelevant.

None of them are throws. They are takedowns. Iriminage is a straight takedown in normal application. If you want to get serious you can break the neck. Tenchi Nage similar leading to ground control. I have never heard of Kateinage. However if it was Kaiten nage you are quoting, it is either a straight takedown or continues to a shoulder dislocation. I wish you would stick to things you know about. Certainly you wouldn't post so much crap if you did that.

Who to believe; K-man or Aikido? I think I'll go with Aikido knowing what its techniques are, and what they're called.

If using full force only gets submission your technique is ineffective. Full force should destroy the joint.i

If you're targeting the wrist. In Bjj I'm targeting the elbows.

Because you have never seen a proper dojo. In Aikido we attack with two hands always. If we did the one hand stuff we would be told to attack properly. In Karate, Krav and Systema, which I teach, no one would even think about attacking like that.

Okay, but we're talking about Aikido, not your hybrid MA style.

Muay Thai was not designed for sport.

Wrong thread chief. In this thread we're talking about classical MAs that sparred. Since Muay Thai dates back to the 16th century, I'd consider it a classical MA that definitely enjoys sparring.

 

[TFP]

Actually, yes. That's a very crude one, of course, but yes, that, and much, much more. Simply by agreeing to meet in a place and fight implies rules... hell, there's rules even when there isn't such an agreement. True "no rules" fighting doesn't actually happen... if you can't see (or follow) the difference between an absence of rules and an absence of restrictions (which is really what the UFC were in the beginning), you're not going to do well for the rest of my comments...

GOD BLESS YOU CHRIS, I KNEW YOU WERE GONNA BE ONE OF THOSE GUYS!!! I SUPPOSE SINCE YOU CAN'T DROP A NUKE ON YOUR OPPONENT IN A STREET FIGHT IT MAKES IT NOT REAL DUE TO "RULES". OH WAIT! NOW YOUR CHANGING YOU STANCE MID SENTENCE AND SAYING THERE WERE ONLY "RESTRICTIONS" IN THE EARLY UFC's! WHICH IS IT BUDDY? I WILL TELL, NO RULES IS WHICH ONE IT WAS.

SO IF IM IN A BAR AND SOMEONE ASKS ME TO STEP OUTSIDE, THAT ISN'T A SELF DEFENSE SITUATION BECAUSE WEMBOTH AGREED TO GO TO GO OUT THERE AND FIGHT?

How was it geared towards grapplers? In a number of ways, actually... first was the rules. The lack of time limits or rounds played into a longer strategy. Next was the lack of referee interference (the fighters wouldn't be broken up for lack of action
CHRIS, YOU'RE HONESTLY GOING TO SIT HERE AND SAY THE "LACK OF RULES" HELPED THE GRAPPLERS!!! LIKE, THE STRIKERS NEEDED RULES TO HELP EVEN THE PLAYING FIELD!?!?!

The only banned actions were ones that would only be applied against a grappling opponent, of course (not that fish-hooking would result in immediate defeat of the grappler, but it is interesting that that was not allowed, whereas striking the throat or groin was fine...).
WELL I GOTTA DISAGREE, ROYCE WAS THE ONE THAT WAS BIT AND STILL WON HIS FIGHT, AND I HAVE USED A LEGIT FISHHOOK TWICE IN STREET FIGHTS AND BITH TIMES IT WAS STANDING.

Beyond the rules, was the environment. A number of fighters afterwards (particularly those from striking-based arts) mentioned that the floor was a lot softer than they were used to... which invites going to the ground, as you're not about to break your knees in a bad fall, but, more importantly, robbed the strikers of their usual speed and power.
THIS IS A GOOD POINT!

The surrounding cage allowed grappling competitors more handholds and grips, providing leverage which wasn't really any help to the strikers (seriously, they needed a cage?).
ACTUALLY THIS STATEMENT JUST SHOWS YOUR LACK OF KNOWLEDGE ON THE SUBJECT. THE CAGE ACTUALLY HELPS THE STRIKER. GIVES THEM SOMETHING TO KEAN AGAINST AS SOMEONE IS TRYING TO TAKE THEM DOWN, CAN AND IS STILL USED TO HOLD ONTO TO STOP SOMEONE FROM TAKING THEM DOWN AND IS OFTEN USED TO "WALL WALK" THERE WAYNBACK TO THERE FEET ONCE ON THE GROUND.

Then, of course, was the selection of the competitors. Very grappler friendly, and, more specifically, ground fighting friendly. Really, why would there have been any surprise that Royce won?
LOL, OH MY!!!!!!! YES, SETTING ROYCE UP FOR A SECOND ROUND MATCHUP VS A 225LB, RIPPED CATCH WRESTLING BOXER AND KING OF PANCRASE NAMED KEN SHAMROCK SURE WAS GIVING HIM THE EASY ROAD. THISE SNEAKY GRACIES!!!!!!

It's interesting to note that the surface has become a lot more solid (still padded, and a little slow, but faster than it used to be), there's been an instigation of time limits and rounds, attrition isn't encouraged anymore, there are more restrictions on what can be done, and so on...
WHICH IS WHY THE GRACIES STOPPED FIGHTING. TO MANY RULES MADE THE UFC UNREALISTIC AS A TRUE SENSE OF COMBAT.


As far as "please explain how grappling is not ground work?", seriously? Maybe read a dictionary? Grappling means "to seize or hold"... it is taken from the English term "grapnel", a device to take hold of a wall. It has nothing to do with if you're standing, sitting, lying down, swimming, or flying through the air. The fact that it has come to refer to ground work in the MMA world has no real meaning here. In real terms, I'm a grappler. I don't do ground work.

JUST BECAUSE THERE IS STANDUP GRAPPLING DOESNT MEAN THE STUFF ON THE GROUND ISN'T ALSO GRAPPLING.

OH AND HERE IS DEFINITION.
grappling - the act of engaging in close hand-to-hand combat; "they had a fierce wrestle"; "we watched his grappling and wrestling with the bully"
hand-to-hand struggle, wrestle, wrestling, grapple
struggle - strenuous effort; "the struggle to get through the crowd exhausted her"
2. grappling - the sport of hand-to-hand struggle between unarmed contestants who try to throw each other down.

LOOKS LIKE MAYBE YOU ARE WRONG........AGAIN.:bangahead:

You really want me to say it? Okay, yes. Gracie JiuJitsu, despite all accounts and claims, is not a self defence art. If it's meant to be, it's missed the boat incredibly badly. In my time in BJJ I saw absolutely nothing that I would consider viable, or appropriate self defence teachings... training in a seminar with Royce just solidified that for me, really. To me, BJJ really is a watered down sporting version of a watered down kids version of a watered down sporting version of actual martial arts. It's fantastic in it's specialisation, but it's specialisation isn't anything to do with self defence.

:BSmeter:

As for the second question, well, I suppose that would be both yes and no. To aid in fighting? Yes, that's a part of what some, or many martial arts are about... but, by the same token, even in that it's just not as cut and dried as "martial arts are for fighting". Self defence, though? Nope, not at all. No martial arts are really designed with modern self defence in mind... the closest would be the RBSD systems... but they aren't actually martial arts, more ways that martial arts (and other things) can be approached.

There's a big difference between what something is said to be, and what it actually is... no matter who, or how many, are saying it.



No, you really don't. Tell you what, can you explain to me the two major categories of violence that could be encountered in a self defence altercation, and the types of violence (and attacker/s) that might present you with? Can you explain what a self defence system actually is?



The "legit challenge" was little more than another publicity stunt.



It's sport. It's a contest. A game, really. And no, it's not "as real as it gets", nor is it anywhere close to serious enough for me. And if you think that the UFC, or MMA is "actually fighting" in anything other than a controlled, sporting environment, then yeah, you're incredibly off base.



No, I didn't ignore them. I gave them the proper relevance. There's a difference.

But, frankly, "testing things in the cage" doesn't relate at all to self defence. At all. Not one bit. But, I suppose we haven't met properly yet either... me not looking at the history of something is quite a funny idea. Get back to me with an understanding of self defence, and you might be able to talk. I already know your context... can you get a handle on mine?



Ha, sure.... "could be"...



No. And I wouldn't be so strong in your defence, as you're also stating later that "hey, it's just a theory". Here's some insight for you... your theory is wrong.



BJJ can be incredibly technical, it is often described as "physical chess", showing that it focuses on longer-term strategy to employ it's technical methods, and, having experience with both, I would say that no, Aikido isn't harder to learn than BJJ is... nor is BJJ harder to learn than Aikido is. Both require a different approach, certainly... but that's not on a scale. As far as the ideas of "real Aikido" of the old days versus now... that type of comment I have seen levelled at pretty much every art that's old enough. Watch, you'll see it applied to BJJ in the next decade or two.... When it comes to Segal's randori... when I believe you know what you're watching, I'll listen to your comments. Answering my questions above will go a long way towards that.



This question I like, and I feel is largely at the heart of the intention of the thread!



Ha, oh, that was funny... "simpler and more practical"? BJJ? Really? Wow, we must have trained in very different arts...

As far as the idea of competition being how to "learn the technique, then apply it at full force" (really? Full force? I seriously doubt that... if you did, you'd have no training partners the next class, they'd all be recovering from broken arms and the like... or you would be yourself), do you really think that non-competitive arts don't do that? Or that competitive methods are the only, or even the best way to achieve such training?



No, I'm not... oh, right... you meant someone else...

I will be back for more, I actually have to go judge some MMA fights.:drinkbeer

 

[K-man]

Exactly.

So you agree with me. You were using full force.

The point of that story was a woman defending herself from a rapist using the Triangle Choke. Her occupation is pretty irrelevant.

If you say so, but it shows you pay no attention to the facts.

Who to believe; K-man or Aikido? I think I'll go with Aikido knowing what its techniques are, and what they're called.

No need to be offensive. Aikido had no names for its techniques until Westerners insisted on having things named. Same as Uke in Karate. Look at the web, an your beloved Wiki and it will probably say 'block' which it is not. However if you want to be technical here is what your Wiki has to say.

A throw is a martial arts term for a grappling technique that involves off-balancing or lifting an opponent, and throwing them to the ground, in Japanese martial arts referred to as nage-waza, 投げ技, "throwing technique". Throws usually involve a rotating motion, the practitioner performing the throw disconnects with the opponent, and ends balanced and on their feet as opposed to a takedown where both finish on the ground. Throws can however also be followed into a top position, in which case the person executing the throw does not disengage from the opponent. Certain throwing techniques called sacrifice throws (sutemi-waza, 捨身技, "sacrifice technique") involve putting oneself in a potentially disadvantageous position, such as on the ground, in order to execute a throw.

If you're targeting the wrist. In Bjj I'm targeting the elbows.

I am targeting any joint including elbows.

Okay, but we're talking about Aikido, not your hybrid MA style.

You you are being really offensive. We are talking about TMA and Sport. I teach pure traditional Okinawan Goju Ryu Karate, not a hybrid. I would like a genuine apology for that slight. How dare you call my art hybrid. You've bashed every style but that really crosses the line.

Wrong thread chief. In this thread we're talking about classical MAs that sparred. Since Muay Thai dates back to the 16th century, I'd consider it a classical MA that definitely enjoys sparring.


For once you are right. I did mix threads.

I'm thinking it's time this thread was closed!

 

[RTKDCMB]

I'm merely pointing out that we've seen competitive styles like Boxing, Wrestling, TKD, Bjj, MT, etc. being used effectively outside the confines of the training hall. I'm curious as to why the same hasn't occurred with the non competitive styles.

Because people in the non-competitive styles do not go out looking to challenge everyone and get it on camera. So you have seen TKD (which I am sure you have put down many occasions) being used effectively outside the confines of the training hall?

 

[RTKDCMB]

Since when is Karate nonsport?

Goju-Ryu competition right there.

When not all styles or schools compete.

 

[RTKDCMB]

First - WHY ARE WE YELLING?

SO IF IM IN A BAR AND SOMEONE ASKS ME TO STEP OUTSIDE, THAT ISN'T A SELF DEFENSE SITUATION BECAUSE WE BOTH AGREED TO GO TO GO OUT THERE AND FIGHT?

No it is not, if someone asks you to step out side you can say no. If he waits for you to go outside to go somewhere else and then attacks you, that is a self defence situation.

I HAVE USED A LEGIT FISHHOOK TWICE IN STREET FIGHTS AND BITH TIMES IT WAS STANDING.

You were lucky you didn't lose a finger or two, sticking your finger in someones mouth is good way to get your fingers bitten off.

ACTUALLY THIS STATEMENT JUST SHOWS YOUR LACK OF KNOWLEDGE ON THE SUBJECT. THE CAGE ACTUALLY HELPS THE STRIKER. GIVES THEM SOMETHING TO KEAN AGAINST AS SOMEONE IS TRYING TO TAKE THEM DOWN, CAN AND IS STILL USED TO HOLD ONTO TO STOP SOMEONE FROM TAKING THEM DOWN AND IS OFTEN USED TO "WALL WALK" THERE WAYNBACK TO THERE FEET ONCE ON THE GROUND.

And holding onto the cage to prevent a takedown is illegal in MMA competitions and can result in a loss of a point and possibly the fight and the cage can be used to smoosh the strikers face onto the cage giving him less of a chance to strike. And you accuse him of having a lack of knowledge on the subject?

LOL, OH MY!!!!!!! YES, SETTING ROYCE UP FOR A SECOND ROUND MATCHUP VS A 225LB, RIPPED CATCH WRESTLING BOXER AND KING OF PANCRASE NAMED KEN SHAMROCK SURE WAS GIVING HIM THE EASY ROAD. THISE SNEAKY GRACIES!!!!!!

Yes and matching up Royce Gracie with a boxer silly enough to have one boxing glove and no grappling experience whatsoever, who tapped at the first sign of trouble, whilst matching up Gerrad Gordeu (a striker who almost won the whole event) with 400lb man mountain in the first UFC, that wasn't giving him the easy road at all was it?