Sport And TMA....Again

[Hanzou]

I would like to see someone tries to take these guys down.

http://imageshack.com/a/img21/6719/33vk.jpg

In my experience, you may land a lucky punch but you will never have a luck throw (take down).

I think the chances of getting into a fight with a sumo wrestler is pretty slim.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think the chances of getting into a fight with a sumo wrestler is pretty slim.

If your opponent has good stand up wrestling skill, you just can't take him down by your "luck". You have to take him down by your skill.

Even "single leg" sometime won't work on experienced wrestlers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-rr_kW1Mv0&feature=youtu.be

Unfortunately the "resistance to be taken down" training is not popular today.

 

[K-man]

Originally Posted by K-man
As to your comment about the Aikido schools being garbage, I don't know. I do know that I have come across a number of Aikidoka who wouldn't know their *** from their elbow, but I have seen the same from other MAs as well. Then if I was asked who is the most proficient martial artist I have met ... he is Aikidoka.

No, I'm not... oh, right... you meant someone else...

You are one sick puppy! But you are right, we need to catch up for coffee. PM time and place or better still, make a time to check out the new dojo.

 

[MJS]

Considering that Benny the Jet lost two matches yet still claimed to be "undefeated", I tend to believe the side of the Gracie account.

I can't confirm or deny anything about Benny. I was talking about Emin Boztepe.
http://subversivethinking.blogspot.com/2012/12/the-challenge-of-emin-boztepe-and-royce.html

 

[MJS]

That was a quote taken out of the context. I was responding to a poster who asked if Bjj is so great, why are most UFC fights ended in knockouts. I certainly wasn't suggesting that people should practice Bjj to become the next Ultimate Fighter, or to participate in a MMA fight.

Ok, I stand corrected.

 

[Hanzou]

If your opponent has good stand up wrestling skill, you just can't take him down by your "luck". You have to take him down by your skill.

Like the takedown skills you learn in any submission grappling art?

Even "single leg" sometime won't work on experienced wrestlers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-rr_kW1Mv0&feature=youtu.be

Unfortunately the "resistance to be taken down" training is not popular today.

I'll remember that advice if I ever find myself in a bar fight in Mongolia.

 

[Hanzou]

But in this case 1+1 does not = 2. Without getting too graphic Missionary is not the most common position in rape.

Then let me clarify; If a woman finds herself in a vulnerable position (like a rape situation), the skills she learns in Bjj would be highly beneficial for her.

The Triangle Choke is one of those skills.

 

[frank raud]

Considering that Benny the Jet lost two matches yet still claimed to be "undefeated", I tend to believe the side of the Gracie account.[/QUOTE

Because, of course, there's no way a Gracie would ever claim that either their art or themselves were undefeated, or even slightly exaggerate their record. Would never happen.

 

[jks9199]

Women getting raped in secluded areas in the missionary position is a high likelihood situation. The missionary position is easily transferable into the guard position. It would seem bizarre not to apply the triangle choke or a similar hold in a similar situation.

Let me strongly suggest that making broad statements about rape is a good way to insert your foot rather deeply into your mouth. I think I'll leave it there... and with the observation that some time researching rape events might be of use.

I understand it just fine. I'm just curious as to why we never see that type of randori being done outside the confines of an Aikido dojo or seminar to non-Aikido practitioners. It reminds me of Masaaki Hatsumi touching people and making them submit in the Honbu, but for some reason neither him, or his students could replicate that effect anywhere else.

I'm not particularly aware of Hatsumi or any Bujinkan practitioners working for submissions. Or competing much... Might be wrong, but not something I've seen or heard tell of.

Maybe you can talk about where you've seen or heard about this?

Full force as in full, non-compliant resistance. You don't need to break someone's arm if you're placing the proper pressure on your partners arm, and forcing them to tap. Same thing applies to chokes. Broken limbs and choke outs happening in competitions are testaments to the effectiveness of that training.

Some non-competitive arts don't even spar, much less participate in free sparring/randori at full force.

Just curious... Have you actually read any of the descriptions of what, for lack of a better term, I'll describe as complete training in the methodologies like paired kata? You know, where people have said that, after an initial phase of compliance, the receiver will begin to take advantage of errors or fail to comply unless the technique is properly executed?

 

[ballen0351]

Like this?


Hélio Gracie disputed Rickson's claim to have had over 400 fights. According to Hélio, Rickson has only competed in fights that are commonly known and reported: the two against Rei Zulu and those that took place in Japan. Hélio alleged that Rickson uses practice and amateur bouts to obtain a number over 400,

Because, of course, there's no way a Gracie would ever claim that either their art or themselves were undefeated, or even slightly exaggerate their record. Would never happen.

 

[ballen0351]

Then let me clarify; If a woman finds herself in a vulnerable position (like a rape situation), the skills she learns in Bjj would be highly beneficial for her.

The Triangle Choke is one of those skills.

Like I said you know not of what you speak and should leave the rape defense to people that actually have a clue

 

[jks9199]

You can do case study on real world examples of self defense You dont need to have been involved in each attempt. You can learn alot from case study and files. Im considered by courts a Defensive tactics expert. Im also the departments defensive tactics instructor. Ive been to dozens of classes on officer safety, and have reviewed hundreds if not close to a 1000 reports on officer assaults and deaths. Ive never been killed but am I an expert? The courts think so. Ive testified in civil cases and officer trial boards. Ive gotten cops fired and cops exonerated with my testimony.

So maybe your definition of an expert is different then most people.

The word "expert" has a lot of different meanings. In court, an "expert" is a person with specialized training and/or experience beyond that of a lay person which enables and allows them to give opinion testimony rather than merely state what they saw or heard directly. An expert may be able to take a skid mark, and state that, to leave a 30 foot skid mark on that pavement, the car had to be traveling at about 25 mph. Or that an officer's particular use of force was reasonable and appropriate to the resistance encountered and in keeping with the agency's policies and laws.

Another way to define an expert is as someone who knows nearly all there is about a subject. A third, similar definition would be a person with a high level of skill in performing tasks or actions.

The simple reason that I say that it's hard to impossible to be an "expert" in self defense is what I laid out earlier: few people encounter enough situations where they use self defense skills to be able to reliably assess something that worked once, something that was pure luck, from something that is reliable. That's not to say you can't learn enough to have a good guess, and to develop sound assumptions, or to qualify as a court expert. I just dislike the idea of labeling myself as an "expert" colloquially in a subject that is so subjective in experience.

 

[ballen0351]

The word "expert" has a lot of different meanings. In court, an "expert" is a person with specialized training and/or experience beyond that of a lay person which enables and allows them to give opinion testimony rather than merely state what they saw or heard directly. An expert may be able to take a skid mark, and state that, to leave a 30 foot skid mark on that pavement, the car had to be traveling at about 25 mph. Or that an officer's particular use of force was reasonable and appropriate to the resistance encountered and in keeping with the agency's policies and laws.

Another way to define an expert is as someone who knows nearly all there is about a subject. A third, similar definition would be a person with a high level of skill in performing tasks or actions.

The simple reason that I say that it's hard to impossible to be an "expert" in self defense is what I laid out earlier: few people encounter enough situations where they use self defense skills to be able to reliably assess something that worked once, something that was pure luck, from something that is reliable. That's not to say you can't learn enough to have a good guess, and to develop sound assumptions, or to qualify as a court expert. I just dislike the idea of labeling myself as an "expert" colloquially in a subject that is so subjective in experience.

I don't consider myself an expert at anything. But to say you can't be an expert I don't agree with. I believe there are experts out there. Would you consider Rory Miller an expert ?

 

[jks9199]

I don't consider myself an expert at anything. But to say you can't be an expert I don't agree with. I believe there are experts out there. Would you consider Rory Miller an expert ?

No more than he would...

 

[ballen0351]

No more than he would...

Ok well then we will just disagree. There are plenty of experts in self defense. Not as many as actually claim the title but they exist. I've met them even if they don't consider themselves to be they have no problem taking money to put on seminars

 

[Hanzou]

Let me strongly suggest that making broad statements about rape is a good way to insert your foot rather deeply into your mouth. I think I'll leave it there... and with the observation that some time researching rape events might be of use.

Don't worry, statistics backed up everything I said.

I'm not particularly aware of Hatsumi or any Bujinkan practitioners working for submissions. Or competing much... Might be wrong, but not something I've seen or heard tell of.

Maybe you can talk about where you've seen or heard about this?

You misread my quote. What I said was that I find it bizarre that we never see these fantastical feats of skill outside of the Aikido dojo, or the Ninjutsu Honbu.

Here's Massaki Hatsumi doing some pretty interesting stuff that I would love to see done on someone who isn't one of his students;

I would love to learn the secret of pinching the air in front of someone's face, causing them to fall down onto the ground (1:02).

Just curious... Have you actually read any of the descriptions of what, for lack of a better term, I'll describe as complete training in the methodologies like paired kata? You know, where people have said that, after an initial phase of compliance, the receiver will begin to take advantage of errors or fail to comply unless the technique is properly executed?

Of course. I have no problem with that, as long as its paired with a form of full contact free sparring.

 

[K-man]

You misread my quote. What I said was that I find it bizarre that we never see these fantastical feats of skill outside of the Aikido dojo, or the Ninjutsu Honbu.

Of course the 'fantastic feats of skill' to which you refer are assisted be the attackers taking ukemi. In real life an attacker isn't rushing in like that so of course you aren't going to see that sort of receiving skill. In practice you can't throw yourself over to avoid wrist locks so you end up falling awkwardly that doesn't make a demonstration look good.

Of course. I have no problem with that, as long as its paired with a form of full contact free sparring.

As for full contact free sparring. I have a few of my guys ready for Nidan grading. Working with them on their bunkai, I now have very sore elbows and shoulders. They haven't got the sensitivity of the aikido guys to know when they are applying their techniques with a little too much vigour.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I think the chances of getting into a fight with a sumo wrestler is pretty slim.

With the state of the obesity epidemic nowadays your chances are about as slim as those guys.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Would that training include this defense against someone sitting on top of you;

Often

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/109556-MMA-vs-TMA?p=1605527#post1605527

Just to point out, the defenses in Bjj are quite a bit more practical than what you described here.

Since you do not have any experience in any of the things I posted who are you to say what is practical about them? The high mount would not be a very common position in that situation so many of the things in that post would be practical. Oh and stop referring to the position of a rapist as the missionary position, they are 2 completely different things, and quite frankly, a little offensive.

Except forcing someone to submit isn't holding back. If someone surrenders to you, then you've defeated them. Every situation doesn't require you to snap someone's arm in half.

Yes it is, because you can always break their arm anyway, but you don't because you don't need or want to. When someone surrenders to you, you can say to yourself "Well I could have snapped his arm if I put a bit more pressure on it, but he tapped so I didn't have to".

 

[RTKDCMB]

There are a lot of "self defense experts" who little to no practical experience who make their living teaching self defense . Like a golf pro who's never hit a ball outside the driving range.

You cannot be an expert in self defence without practical, real world experience in the field applying the techniques.

Yet we have male gynecologists who are considered experts in the field that do not have the very things they are responsible for caring for.