Sport And TMA....Again

[MJS]

I was hoping someone would mention this. Chris parker, Im hoping you can help me here. I was on the Akban webpage and was watching some clips. In one of them the tori does a take down off of a punch that the attaker just left his arm out. The question is why do some of the kata have the attacker leaving there arms out. I see it in more then a few clips. I cant find the clip, ill keep searching, but why in so many kata do they leave there arms just hanging out?

I really don't know the answer for that. IMO, in the beginning, I'm all for 100% cooperation on the part of the attacker. I mean, if the defender is to learn correctly, things have to be slowed down. BUT....once this happens, once the student is grasping things, then IMHO, the attacking needs to be more realistic.

I did this with one Kenpo class I taught. I picked a technique, and had them go thru it. Then I'd pick up the pace a bit, and have the attacker do something else, during the defense. ie: if the attack was a left hand lapel grab, I'd had them punch with their right or grab with their right or push/pull, etc. basically anything to make things a bit more realistic.

Made me feel good after the class, with the compliments for a great class! Of course, it made me feel sad, when some of them said that was the first time they'd ever done anything like that in class before. Hey, it's like I've said, I'm not the martial arts police. As long as *I* can make a positive difference in a student, that's all that matters to me.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Women getting raped in secluded areas in the missionary position is a high likelihood situation. The missionary position is easily transferable into the guard position. It would seem bizarre not to apply the triangle choke or a similar hold in a similar situation.

In the course of my training in my non-compettitive TMA we have learned, practiced and taught many techniques that would be useful in that situation and none of them involved a triangle choke or similar hold. I'd be willing to bet that a woman (or a man for that matter) would not want to stick around long enough to choke the attacker out if they could avoid it, especially if there were even the remote possibility that there may be additional rapists around.

Full force as in full, non-compliant resistance. You don't need to break someone's arm if you're placing the proper pressure on your partners arm, and forcing them to tap. Same thing applies to chokes.

Some non-competitive arts don't even spar, much less participate in free sparring/randori at full force.

Full force means that you don't hold back on the force you use, if you are not breaking someone's arm with that armbar or Kimoura or whatever you are using then you are holding back, that's not full force. What you are talking about is full resistance. When I am sparring non-contact in my martial art against another adult male black belt of similar experience I can strike and kick with full power to any target, that is more full force than what you are talking about. If we did that full contact we would soon run out of sparring partners unless we added either rules, protective gear or dialed back the power or reduced the amount of targets we aimed for. As for full resistance my sparring partner is not just standing there allowing me to attack him and not attacking back he is actively resisting my efforts and trying to prevent me getting past his defences and trying to get past mine. So don't think for one second that competing in a sport means that you are applying your art at full force or full resistance and that it is the only good way to do things. I could choke someone unconscious or break their limbs and I've never competed.

Broken limbs and choke outs happening in competitions are testaments to the effectiveness of that training.

It could also be a testament of the practitioner lack of control and/or the partners stubbornness and/or stupidity for not tapping out early enough.

 

[ballen0351]

then accept responsibility and stop blaming other people. You're talking about bjj because you're choosing to do so. Don't blame Hanzou for it.

Im not blaming anyone I had no problem with the conversation. You were crying about how much BJJ talk there is I was just giving my opinion I can take it or leave it BJJ menas nothing to me.

once again, you're saying this as though it isn't pretty much exactly my point.

If you say so

in your opinion. I disagree. I dint see any meaningful difference between kyokushin karate and bjj.

Kyokushin is a sport related art like BJJ im not talking about sport related art. Goju for example isnt a Sport related art but Ive been to Goju tournaments. By sport related Im speaking of a popular sporting events like BJJ Judo Kyokushin TKD. Other arts dont have a popular main stream sport side Like Krav or Goju Or other arts that dont have the sport following

 

[RTKDCMB]

Fair point. However, that gives sport-oriented MAs a distinct advantage over non-sport MAs.

No that just means that non-sport MAs evolve DIFFERENTLY. Just because one evolves into a fish and the other evolves into a bird it doesn't meant that the fish is better.

 

[ballen0351]

Women getting raped in secluded areas in the missionary position is a high likelihood situation.

DUDE you have no idea what your talking about. How many rape victims have you talked to? How many rapes have you been too? How many rape suspects have you interviewed. Turn the TV off man this isnt Criminal Minds You have no idea what your talking about

 

[RTKDCMB]

Considering that Benny the Jet lost two matches yet still claimed to be "undefeated", I tend to believe the side of the Gracie account.

He lost one - on points.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Urquidez

 

[Hanzou]

In the course of my training in my non-compettitive TMA we have learned, practiced and taught many techniques that would be useful in that situation and none of them involved a triangle choke or similar hold. I'd be willing to bet that a woman (or a man for that matter) would not want to stick around long enough to choke the attacker out if they could avoid it, especially if there were even the remote possibility that there may be additional rapists around.

Would that training include this defense against someone sitting on top of you;

A bear hand fist or middle knuckle strike to the side of the neck, the temple or the facial nerve under the cheek bone would not take much power to be effective. There is also the possibility of kicking to the back of the head with the shin,instep or ball of the foot or getting the leg around the front and pulling him backwards or kneeing in the kidneys. Nothing from this position would be ideal but there are manyt things that could work. That being said, if you are put in this position then something has already gone terribly wrong.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/109556-MMA-vs-TMA?p=1605527#post1605527

Just to point out, the defenses in Bjj are quite a bit more practical than what you described here.

Full force means that you don't hold back on the force you use, if you are not breaking someone's arm with that armbar or Kimoura or whatever you are using then you are holding back, that's not full force. What you are talking about is full resistance. When I am sparring non-contact in my martial art against another adult male black belt of similar experience I can strike and kick with full power to any target, that is more full force than what you are talking about. If we did that full contact we would soon run out of sparring partners unless we added either rules, protective gear or dialed back the power or reduced the amount of targets we aimed for. As for full resistance my sparring partner is not just standing there allowing me to attack him and not attacking back he is actively resisting my efforts and trying to prevent me getting past his defences and trying to get past mine. So don't think for one second that competing in a sport means that you are applying your art at full force or full resistance and that it is the only good way to do things. I could choke someone unconscious or break their limbs and I've never competed.

Except forcing someone to submit isn't holding back. If someone surrenders to you, then you've defeated them. Every situation doesn't require you to snap someone's arm in half.

It could also be a testament of the practitioner lack of control and/or the partners stubbornness and/or stupidity for not tapping out early enough.

The point was that those training methods work, even if we don't destroy each other's body part every session.

 

[Steve]

Sure. Although, honestly, I wouldn't say they "train to the test", as, well, they don't. They train to the application. Testing really isn't a part of it, when looked at accurately, as that would mean that you train in order to test whether or not boxing works... in a boxing ring, in a boxing match, under boxing rules, in a boxing context. You don't. You train to be able to apply the skill of boxing in a boxing ring/match/context. That could be seen as testing yourself (and your abilities) in such a context, but that's all. And really, non-sporting arts do exactly the same thing, just differently. We train to the skill.

It sounds like you have a definite idea of what "the test" is, and you're applying the filter of self defense to that test. When I say that a sport art teaches to the test, what I mean is a pure sport art, such as Western Boxing or freestyle wrestling, does not purport to be a self defense art. While you can easily see some self defense application, they aren't teaching you self defense. You're learning to box or to wrestle within the rules of the sport.

My point is that this is a double edged sword. The down side is that you are very likely learning habits that could be great for the sport but terrible for self defense (ie, pulling guard in a street fight.) The up side, though, is that you are building skills and technical ability that can provide a solid foundation for self defense. A boxer is not learning self defense. The test that the boxer is training for is a boxing match. And what does that mean? It means that a boxer KNOWS that he or she can execute a straight jab, a cross, a hook or an uppercut, with good head movement and footwork against people trained to stop them from doing so. He or she knows how powerful each technique really is. "Oh, that punch REALLY knocks people out, and I have the timing and experience to make it work." Sport does this for you. If a technique is too deadly to ever execute it against a real person at full speed, you will not really know if you can pull it off.

Bottom line is that a boxer can become an expert boxer. A jiu-jitiero can become an expert jiu-jitiero. A bujinkan taijutsu practioner can become an expert at taijutsu. But NONE of those equal expertise at self defense.

As far as your last comment there ("The skills can translate, of course, but the context of the skills you're learning remains very clear and easy to understand"), well, yes. That's kinda what we've been saying. And we've been saying that that context is not self defence or real world application. It's a sporting contest. Having that context clear and easily understood sounds fine... but the nuances seem to be being missed. Sports ability does not equal combat or defensive ability. Nor does self defence training equal applicable skills in competition.

But, try to remember that this isn't strictly a thread about self defense. If self defense is your goal, than it would be a great idea to cross train or at least spend time widening the scope of your training. Once again, it seems as though you are defaulting to a filter where effectiveness for self defense is the measure. I used "well rounded" as a way to suggest that self defense ISN'T everyone's goal in training. However you define it is important, and maybe the lesson to be learned here is that knowing what you want out of training is important. A self defense school may not be the best school for everyone.

That's true, but it's only a part of the entire equation. Realistically, focusing on competition at all can be detrimental. When training in something (martial arts), it's vital to have a clear goal in mind, and to have everything you do geared towards that goal. You need to only focus on that single approach and methodology... anything else takes time away, removes you from doing what you're needing to do, and can very easily counter-man otherwise good work you may have been doing. The clearer you are in what you're doing, and why, the more powerful the training will be. Otherwise, it's two steps forwards, one step back.

possibly, but sport provides objective feedback. If you have a clear focus on your training, and you have a clear and realistic understanding of what you expect to learn about your training from the sport, I don't believe it can be anything but positive. If self defense skills are your goald, sports can be a way to hide bad training ("I'm great at deep half guard, so it's my go to in a street fight"). But lack of sport is also a terrific way to hide bad training.

I disagree completely. It's absolutely possible to become an expert in self defence... but you have to work towards that context specifically. Again, well rounded just isn't the way.

Yes. We disagree completely. You cannot be an expert in self defence without practical, real world experience in the field applying the techniques. You CAN become an expert in a system. Call it Parker-fu, put whatever techniques you want, apply measures for proficiency and teach people to an expert level in your system. Because THAT'S what they're learning and applying. They are not defending themselves in your class. They are applying your system.

This is not to say that your system doesn't work. It may. But it doesn't create self defense experts. It creates Parker-fu experts.

Yeah, I know John's schools... great guy, good solid head on his shoulders. I don't always agree with what he writes, but he's generally got a good approach. Of course, John is basically the most well-known BJJ instructor in Australia, and a frequent writer in magazines here... but his schools doing well doesn't mean that BJJ as a whole is making much of a splash here. It's certainly got it's place, but it's lost it's sheen of "the new thing", and is settling like many other arts around. As ever, it's arts like TKD that are probably the most "dominant" (in terms of market penetration) here.

Its' been around long enough that it's not a fad. There are schools popping up all over the world. It's not a competition. I'm not opening a school in Australia. I get that Hanzou is ruffling some feathers, and frankly, saying that BJJ "isn't a big deal" sounds to me to be a petty attempt to take Hanzou down a notch or two. When I said, "who gives a rip?" what I mean is, "This is completely irrelevant."

Hey, I was getting to it...!

 

[MJS]

Can you give me some examples that show I don't think standup styles have a place in fighting arts? Because I know that as far as style vs style goes that BJJ is the best, dies not mean that I don't respect other arts, it just means that BJJ is the most dominant. With that said I fully understand BJJ as a whole has some serious flaws.



Now this I am curious about...... Please explain.

So, perhaps I'm misunderstanding you. Please clarify something for me. Going on what you just said, am I safe to assume that you feel that stand up arts have their place? You then state that style vs style, BJJ is head and shoulders above the rest. So if that's the case, then why bother with stand up?

 

[ballen0351]

. You cannot be an expert in self defence without practical, real world experience in the field applying the techniques.

You can do case study on real world examples of self defense You dont need to have been involved in each attempt. You can learn alot from case study and files. Im considered by courts a Defensive tactics expert. Im also the departments defensive tactics instructor. Ive been to dozens of classes on officer safety, and have reviewed hundreds if not close to a 1000 reports on officer assaults and deaths. Ive never been killed but am I an expert? The courts think so. Ive testified in civil cases and officer trial boards. Ive gotten cops fired and cops exonerated with my testimony.

So maybe your definition of an expert is different then most people.

 

[Steve]

In the course of my training in my non-compettitive TMA we have learned, practiced and taught many techniques that would be useful in that situation and none of them involved a triangle choke or similar hold. I'd be willing to bet that a woman (or a man for that matter) would not want to stick around long enough to choke the attacker out if they could avoid it, especially if there were even the remote possibility that there may be additional rapists around.

For what it's worth, if anti-rape training is one's goal, I cannot imagine how a solid year or two of BJJ training would be other than mandatory. Being confident and effective from guard just makes sense. Being confident and effective from guard IS the difference between being raped and "not stick[ing] around long enough to choke the attacker out." In other words, not sticking around is ALSO BJJ. And the confidence and effectiveness of the techniques can be honed in competition.

Full force means that you don't hold back on the force you use, if you are not breaking someone's arm with that armbar or Kimoura or whatever you are using then you are holding back, that's not full force.

Not true. Full force does not equal uncontrolled. the submission comes when defense is no longer an option. As long as there is the potential to escape, techniques are applied "full force." I've been put to sleep one time in training. It was a baseball bat choke that I'd never seen before. I was a new blue belt, and was literally unconscious before I hit the mat... less than 2 seconds. That's "full force," in my opinion.

What you are talking about is full resistance. When I am sparring non-contact in my martial art against another adult male black belt of similar experience I can strike and kick with full power to any target, that is more full force than what you are talking about. If we did that full contact we would soon run out of sparring partners unless we added either rules, protective gear or dialed back the power or reduced the amount of targets we aimed for. As for full resistance my sparring partner is not just standing there allowing me to attack him and not attacking back he is actively resisting my efforts and trying to prevent me getting past his defences and trying to get past mine. So don't think for one second that competing in a sport means that you are applying your art at full force or full resistance and that it is the only good way to do things. I could choke someone unconscious or break their limbs and I've never competed.

It sounds like you train at a pretty good school.

Here's another advantage of sport arts, particularly grappling arts. I'll speak to BJJ because that's what I know. Because of the sport context of the art, I apply these techniques "full force" against all different body types. Big and small, strong, fat, skinny, no neck, flexible, inflexible. You name it. I'm not punching anyone, so I don't have to pull the punches in order to keep that person safe. You get a lot of full speed, full resistance, full force opportunities to see how each technique actually works against men, women, big, and small. The point is that you are only one part of the equation. In a laboratory, your opponents are theoretical. In a sport, they are right there.



It could also be a testament of the practitioner lack of control and/or the partners stubbornness and/or stupidity for not tapping out early enough.[/QUOTE]

 

[Steve]

You can do case study on real world examples of self defense You dont need to have been involved in each attempt. You can learn alot from case study and files. Im considered by courts a Defensive tactics expert. Im also the departments defensive tactics instructor. Ive been to dozens of classes on officer safety, and have reviewed hundreds if not close to a 1000 reports on officer assaults and deaths. Ive never been killed but am I an expert? The courts think so. Ive testified in civil cases and officer trial boards. Ive gotten cops fired and cops exonerated with my testimony.

So maybe your definition of an expert is different then most people.

I'm not sure I understand, ballen. You're saying that you're well trained AND have reviewed "hundreds if not close to a 1000 reports?" Sounds like you have practical experience to me.

What sorts of things does a defensive tactics instructor teach? What experiences and training do you have that qualify you to be a defensive tactics expert? I would be willing to bet money that you have training and experiences that other cops don't.

I don't think my definition of expert is any different than yours. Well, it might be, but I don't think so.

 

[ballen0351]

I'm not sure I understand, ballen. You're saying that you're well trained AND have reviewed "hundreds if not e to a 1000 reports?" Sounds likewasn't ehave practical experience to me.

I have some experience but your making it sound like from your post that a little experience does not make you an expert. Maybe I'm not understanding your point.

What sorts of things does a defensive tactics instructor teach? What experiences and training do you have that qualify you to be a defensive tactics expert? I would be willing to bet money that you have training and experiences that other cops don't.

Yes and no. Basically to be a DT instructor you need to attend a class and pass. I've always been a first one in kinda guy so I tend to have more experience then others but that's more of my own "I don't trust you as much as I trust me" so I do it myself. I have trust issues I guess.

I don't think my definition of expert is any different than yours. Well, it might be, but I don't think so.

the way i read your point was training wasnt enough. You needed real life exp. I contend you can get that knowlegde from other sources.

 

[MJS]

Everyone in MMA/UFC practices Bjj. Its standard, because if you don't know it, you're going to lose, badly.

In the recent season of The Ultimate Fighter, Chris Holdsworth, primarily a Bjj stylist, defeated everyone with Bjj submissions and won the tournament. Why? Because his adversaries on the show didn't know wtf they were doing once they hit the ground, and Holdsworth sent them to dreamland.

Here's the thing: If that's what is required for the UFC/MMA type events, great! At this point in my life, I'm not going to be entering the UFC and the little bit of fighting that I do in Kyokushin will probably end within the next few years anyways. Why? Not that I have to give reasons to justify my choices, but, a) I'm not as gung ho about it, as some others are. Let them fight. b) I have other priorities in life that require my time. That said, to make it really worth while to compete, you've got to dedicate the time to do it. c) I work a 40hr a week job, sometimes more, depending on OT. I need a job to keep a roof over my head. I'm 40yrs old. Frankly, I really don't feel like racking up tons of potential injuries. d) everyone has their goals and reasons why they train. While I doubt that every punk thug on the street isn't skilled, I highly doubt they're the same level as a MMA pro fighter. That said, I doubt there's a bunch of evil Gracie twins roaming the streets looking to jack someone's car.

 

[Hanzou]

Here's the thing: If that's what is required for the UFC/MMA type events, great! At this point in my life, I'm not going to be entering the UFC and the little bit of fighting that I do in Kyokushin will probably end within the next few years anyways. Why? Not that I have to give reasons to justify my choices, but, a) I'm not as gung ho about it, as some others are. Let them fight. b) I have other priorities in life that require my time. That said, to make it really worth while to compete, you've got to dedicate the time to do it. c) I work a 40hr a week job, sometimes more, depending on OT. I need a job to keep a roof over my head. I'm 40yrs old. Frankly, I really don't feel like racking up tons of potential injuries. d) everyone has their goals and reasons why they train. While I doubt that every punk thug on the street isn't skilled, I highly doubt they're the same level as a MMA pro fighter. That said, I doubt there's a bunch of evil Gracie twins roaming the streets looking to jack someone's car.

That was a quote taken out of the context. I was responding to a poster who asked if Bjj is so great, why are most UFC fights ended in knockouts. I certainly wasn't suggesting that people should practice Bjj to become the next Ultimate Fighter, or to participate in a MMA fight.

 

[Hanzou]

DUDE you have no idea what your talking about. How many rape victims have you talked to? How many rapes have you been too? How many rape suspects have you interviewed. Turn the TV off man this isnt Criminal Minds You have no idea what your talking about

The most common sexual position is missionary, and the most common location of a rape is in a home.

 

[MJS]

I don't believe anyone is trying to say BJJ is the ultimate art for the new age UFC/MMA fights. Not at all, GJJ and the early UFC's showed the world you needed to cross train in grappling arts to be successful. That standing arts alone we're not enough. But there is an issue when a standing art refuses to recognize the importance of grappling but still wants to act like there art is superior.you YOU NEED TO KNOW SOME TYPE OF GRAPPLING, OFFENSIVELY OR DEFENSIVELY TO HAVE A SUCCESSFUL SELF DEFENSE/FIGHTING ART
I think that is the point and the arguement.

While some will disagree, this is something that I agree with, as I've said the same thing countless times myself. But, then again, to each their own. If someone doesn't see value in it, that's fine. I'm not going to look at them as any less of a person or art because of what they choose to do/not do.

 

[MJS]

And just so I don't come off as some GJJ/BJJ fan boy, here are some of my gripes with the art and family in no particular order........

they were a family of bullies not displaying "the martial way".
early on they would storm unsuspecting dojo's and act as if it was a challenge match
they would incorporate other styles into there system acting as if it was always or is now a part of GJJ.
GJJ/ BJJ lack of takedowns most pointedly wrestling.
as a BJJ fighter if you run up against a better striker you can't takedown your in trouble.
there stuborness and lack of respect for those who beat them.

but according to some, it doesn't matter, because either way, the BJJ/GJJ guy will have more superior skills all the time. LOL! Furthermore, according to some, it's very easy to take people down, so....

 

[ballen0351]

The most common sexual position is missionary, and the most common location of a rape is in a home.

But in this case 1+1 does not = 2. Without getting too graphic Missionary is not the most common position in rape.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

according to some, it's very easy to take people down, so....

I would like to see someone tries to take these guys down.

http://imageshack.com/a/img21/6719/33vk.jpg

In my experience, you may land a lucky punch but you will never have a luck throw (take down).