Sokeship Council, Grandmaster or NOT????

[kamishinkan]

I do not know about all of this God stuff. Soke means head (of) family.
It implies a famliel lineage art (not nec. martial arts).
As I said before Ted Petit has never sanctioned or backed the ISHH.
I have already explained this. The ISHH chose to post the Kamishin Ryu information on their own and used documents that had already been read by Power Sensei. It is not the ISHH that recognized Petit sensei he was the lineage inheritor of the Kamishin Ryu which is a lineage inherited art.
Kuniba sensei recognized Church sensei's "Soke" title of the Kamishin Ryu and Petit sensei is the inheritor.

 

[arnisador]

I'll believe it when I see a consensus in favor of it on E-Budo. They know their stuff when it comes to the JMA.

 

[kamishinkan]

I just pulled this from e-budo. I believe it was posted yesterday.
Power sensei explained his position and reading of the scroll

I do not "certify" sokes. I did a translation of the scroll prepared by Kuniba Shogo sensei. Kuniba sensei's son has alleged that his father never recognized Mr. Church as a soke and this document proves he, in fact, did so.

I compared Kuniba sensei's hand writing to other documents he wrote and the handwriting is identical. I know enough about shodo/handwriting to identify uniquenesses and repetitive pattern/stroke characteristics. It is definitely Kuniba Shogo sensei's handwriting.

Hope this helps.

 

[James Kovacich]

"How can you say that on 2/17/06 and this

In terms now of the "American Sokeship Council" in this case Soke Ted Petit and the ISHH it is wholey legitimate. "

Simply because it is. It is becasue Soke said it is.
Atleast in terms of Kamishin Ryu and the offshoot arts.
Remember, to Kamishin Ryu practitoners, Albert Church spoke as God.
His words are to be taken as if God spoke them directly to the lineage. That is what Soke is - the mediator between gods and the lineage.

As explained also, Guy Power is a highly respected expert on matters of Budo. He has stated unequivocably that Albert Church had been placed to oversee the Kamishin Ryu and to speak to Kamishin Ryu practioners as a representative of God.

So now you have all the thousands of Kamishin Ryu and offshoot students and teachers and all of Guy Powers followers agreeing that ISHH is a legitimate Sokeship organization. If it is not, then we are back to questioning the sokeship of Church and Petit.

There are many instances where there are questions about who is the legitimate Soke of ancient schools. But in the case of Kamishin Ryu, that is settled: Guy Power and ISHH have made thier declarations and there is no argument from the Kamishin Ryu anywhere.

The ISHH also has support from others who Church declared to be Soke, and the Soke that they declared. So now we go from there.

You totally "flip flop double talked" in 4 days time! You came out hard about all the "morons" and it seems you are the one that is calling them by their title of "SOKE."

You didn't answer my question. How can you change your opinion in such a short time. You say you are way affilated to some of these guys. Surely you've been affilated to them for more than 4 days. What gives. I took offense to you calling them all morons. If you only read the last couple of pages before your post you DEFINATELY would of known my instructor was blasted earlier in this thread.

 

[kenpojujitsu]

Like I said, I was wrong.
Guy Power Sensei has ended the argument. He his declaration has made them legit. I can not argue against a man of these credentials and authority.

They may still be morons, but they are in fact Soke.
And I don't really care who you or your teacher are.

 

[kenpojujitsu]

I'll believe it when I see a consensus in favor of it on E-Budo. They know their stuff when it comes to the JMA.

Please, someone else ask on e-budo.
When I asked about this there I was banned from the board for mentioning Guy Power's name. Apparently he is one of the untouchable e-budo god's.

 

[James Kovacich]

Like I said, I was wrong.
And I don't really care who you or your teacher are.

Really. Why don't you fill out your profile so we know who you are?

 

[James Kovacich]

Apperantly your word is based on Guy Powers word who is a 6th dan. He has a densho but that is not a Soke. So how is his word the final word.
http://www.michionline.org/smaa/bios/power.html

And heres one of your e-budo buddies description of a densho.
http://www.e-budokai.com/articles/belts.htm

 

[kenpojujitsu]

Guy Power is 7th Dan Renshi, atleast. But he also speaks for the Nakamura Ryu organization, in addition to being a well known translator, expert on Japanese documents pertaining to Budo, and a highly regarded historian.

He has verified that Albert Church is in fact a true and legitimate Soke.
This research and translation was done on behalf of the ISHH and Soke Ted Petit. In doing this for them, he has given a huge amount of credability and legitimacy to the ISHH.

 

[James Kovacich]

Guy Power is 7th Dan Renshi, atleast. But he also speaks for the Nakamura Ryu organization, in addition to being a well known translator, expert on Japanese documents pertaining to Budo, and a highly regarded historian.

He has verified that Albert Church is in fact a true and legitimate Soke.
This research and translation was done on behalf of the ISHH and Soke Ted Petit. In doing this for them, he has given a huge amount of credability and legitimacy to the ISHH.

I still don't see how HIS word is the final word? What makes his word final? 6th or 7th dan verifying a 10th dan??
That dosen't make them legit. Thats "almost" like to a Soke being promoted by his students.

Are they even from the same system?

 

[TimoS]

When I asked about this there I was banned from the board for mentioning Guy Power's name

What on earth is it that you have against him ?! Here's what Guy Power said, you just seem to be unwilling to accept that and constantly turned it into "Guy Power certifies soke". And as you quite well know, the reason you got banned was not for mentioning a name, but rather for refusal to act according the rules.

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19214&page=5 and especially this post, also this one and this

 

[kamishinkan]

This has been said, over and over, Guy Power NEVER translated or verified anything for the ISHH. The ISHH used documents (ie. the Kuniba Scroll) and subsequent lineage documents to prove Ted Petit is the rightful inheritor of the Kamishin Ryu. The Kuniba Scroll had already been translated and verified that it was in Kuniba sensei's hand.
Just because the ISHH used these documents in their research does not connect Power sensei to them at all.
Do not forget that it was Kuniba sensei that named Church sensei as Soke of Kamishin Ryu, not Power sensei or the ISHH.

Darrell Collins
Kamishinkan Dojo

 

[James Kovacich]

This has been said, over and over, Guy Power NEVER translated or verified anything for the ISHH. The ISHH used documents (ie. the Kuniba Scroll) and subsequent lineage documents to prove Ted Petit is the rightful inheritor of the Kamishin Ryu. The Kuniba Scroll had already been translated and verified that it was in Kuniba sensei's hand.
Just because the ISHH used these documents in their research does not connect Power sensei to them at all.
Do not forget that it was Kuniba sensei that named Church sensei as Soke of Kamishin Ryu, not Power sensei or the ISHH.

Darrell Collins
Kamishinkan Dojo

Now I looked at your site and that puts things more in perspctive.

 

[kenpojujitsu]

What on earth is it that you have against him ?! Here's what Guy Power said, you just seem to be unwilling to accept that and constantly turned it into "Guy Power certifies soke". And as you quite well know, the reason you got banned was not for mentioning a name, but rather for refusal to act according the rules.

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19214&page=5 and especially this post, also this one and this

I fully complied with the rules of e-budo.
I asked about Guy Power verifying Church as Soke.
One person who knows him well said he did not. I accepted that and left it alone.
Others came back and stated that Guy Power did in fact provide the research and verified that Albert Church was a legitimate Soke.
The the e-budo moderator attacked me, claiming I had some agenda against Guy Power and banned me.
E-Budo is well known as a place to go and attack and slander people. The moderators do it all the time and are even being sued for doing it - again.

I was in full compliance with the e-budo rules. I was only banned because other people responded to my post and started to confirm that he did in fact verify the "sokeship" of Albert Church.

These documents were not just miraculously obtained by ISHH. They did not just decide to go out on thier own and confirm Albert Church and Ted Petit as genuine soke. Someone contacted them for membership and submitted these documents to them.

If Guy Power did not want to be involved in the sokeship business, then he should have just told Soke Petit that he did not want to get involved. Instead he used his reputation as a scholar of Budo and his position as a spokesman for Nakamura Ryu to state in fact that Albert Church was a legitimate Soke - thus also endrosing Ted Petit and the ISHH who confirmed the title based on his words.

If you are not willing to accept Guy Power at his word, you don't have to. I for one am shocked to his involvement in this. If he wants to come here and say that Albert Church, and thus Ted Petit, are not legitimate Soke, then that will put everything back the way it was. They will just go back to being fools who claim to be a soke.

But in the mean time, as siad before, Guy Power's name and reputation are powerful ammunition. If he saus they are soke, then they pretty much are. If they are legitimate soke and are part of ISHH, then ISHH is legit.

 

[TimoS]

I fully complied with the rules of e-budo.

Such as signing your name on every post ? Right....

If he saus they are soke, then they pretty much are.

Show us where Guy Power said that they are soke! Because I can't seem to find it!

 

[kenpojujitsu]

Oh, and by the way...

Kuniba Sensei always maintained that he did not issue the scroll. The family still holds that position. The family position also maintains as stating that not only did he NOT issue the scroll, he could not as that is not the way things are done.

Guy Power and the ISHH have much more involvement in legitimizing Albert Church than Kuniba did. If Guy Power had stepped away from the issue and not went to work to try and build a reputation for Church, this whole thing would have died out a long time ago.

 

[kamishinkan]

The ISHH was contacted by Petit sensei to clarify that Rod Sacronowski was not the inheritor of Kamishin Ryu. At that time the ISHH had him listed as an inheritor of the system. Petit sensei provided the already translated documents to prove that Mr. Sachronowski was not the inheritor.
It was than the decision of the ISHH to list Petit sensei and his information as inheritor.

 

[kenpojujitsu]

I may have forgot a 1 or 2 times. But my name does appear on the posts and in my profile to be included automatically.

ALL e-budo rules were complied with. I was banned as part of e-budo mods trying to do damage control to cover up for Guy Power.

Maybe he is now embarrassed and sorry he ever did it. But it's hard to put the lid back on something like this. The fact remains that he did it.

 

[kamishinkan]

Power sensei just posted yesterday (i think) that he in fact did translate the scroll and no matter what Kuniba sensei's son said, Kuniba Shogo sensei did write the scroll.

 

[kenpojujitsu]

The ISHH was contacted by Petit sensei to clarify that Rod Sacronowski was not the inheritor of Kamishin Ryu. At that time the ISHH had him listed as an inheritor of the system. Petit sensei provided the already translated documents to prove that Mr. Sachronowski was not the inheritor.
It was than the decision of the ISHH to list Petit sensei and his information as inheritor.

A likely story. But he still chose to have thier endorsement as a soke.
All the ISHH had to do with Rod was just tell him that without documentation he could not be recognized and let it go.
Soke Petit had the choice of not submmitting the documents. Instead, he chose to grant them legitmacy.