Sokeship Council, Grandmaster or NOT????

[TimoS]

Is this when the title "ubersoke" is invented?

O-soke

 

[tshadowchaser]

"when everyone is a master, no one is." And I kinda think it applies here because it explains why so many "sokes" are popping up. The title of "master" is really no big deal anymore...in effect, it has become trite.

you may be correct in what you are saying . Way to many people hold lofty titles
however those who truely earned such title and respect are reconised by all and those who buy the title are acknowledged only by therie small group of friends in their small group

 

[kenpojujitsu]

Apparently, the idea of a Sokeship board is now acceptable.

I know you don't want to make this about specific organizations. But here is a powerful example.

The International Society of Head-Founders and Head-Family run by Soke John Williams has suddenly gained respectability and acceptance. I am sure this will open up the door to other organizations like this finding acceptance.

The ISHH has recognized Albert Church and his successor Ted Petit as rightful and legitimate Soke of Nippon Kamishin Ryu - a roughly 1900 year old art with roots in China.

ISHH has taken a lot of heat for doing things like this. But in this case they enlisted Guy Power Sensei to endorse thier findings.

For those of you who do not know, Guy Power is a highly regarded expert on matters of Budo and history. He is the senior ranking American (and perhaps non-Japanese) in Nakamura Ryu. His opinions carry a lot of weight.

Soke Petit is described as one of Mr Power's "long time disciple".

Having someone in Mr. Power's position step in and endorse a sokeship on behalf of someone in an organization like the ISHH sure changes a lot of things. Atleast here in the U.S.

I don't know if Nakamura's organization in Japan agrees with Mr. Power's assessment of this sokeship. Or if any Japanese organization would recognize this. But here in the U.S. when someone can say "Guy Power said I'm a soke", it's pretty hard to argue with that.

So here's what we have;

Guy Power supports the sokeship of Albert Church and Ted Petit
What Soke says, goes.
Ted Petit is a member in good standing with the ISHH and says they too are soke. As a soke himself, he has the authority to do this.

So we now have atleast one official American sokeship council.

 

[kamishinkan]

I have never heard Petit sensei recognize anyone as a Soke. He is against the whole Soke-council approach. He never uses the term (Soke) that I know of, he prefers Petit sensei.

 

[James Kovacich]

It seems like you're the one addressing "so many" as "Soke!" Tell it like it is. Aren't they morons for messing with other morons?? Souns like double talk. This org is right and that one is not.

I think our SENIORS know better than most of us. What they do and who they associate with isn't hurting you or anyone else. I understand there are "self proclaimed GM's" out there and maybe they truly are not seniors. If you choose to not respect them. No problem but don't "lump" them all into the same barrel. Americas evolved enough over the last century to stand on it's own 2 feet.

 

[kenpojujitsu]

I have never heard Petit sensei recognize anyone as a Soke. He is against the whole Soke-council approach. He never uses the term (Soke) that I know of, he prefers Petit sensei.

I don't want to get into this with you again.
But Soke Petit did take his documents to the ISHH and apply for a Sokeship. That was granted to him by them on the word of his highly regarded Nakamura Ryu teacher, Guy power. Mr. Power verified the documents that Petit needed to be officially recognized as Soke. Plus he had to pay for it.

So for him to say he is "against it" now is kind of lame.

 

[kamishinkan]

This is news to me. I was under the impression that ISHH contacted Petit sensei. I will call him and ask.

 

[kenpojujitsu]

It doesn't really matter who contacted who.
Soke Petit had his documents certified by Guy Power and submiited them and the applicable fees to ISHH to become recognized as Soke by them.

If he were not interested, he could have easily just said so.

 

[kenpojujitsu]

This also has ramifications beyond ISHH.
Church certified dozens of people as Soke and they have in turn done so too.

You have people like Clement Reidener - Soke of Shiho Karano Ryu who has certified dozens of people as Soke.

So in one stroke of his pen, Mr. Power has lent his name, credability and reputation to an entire industry.

That does not mean all sokeship boards were legitimized. But many of them.

All I need to do now is to pay Soke Reidner my fee to get my own sokeship. When questioned about it, all I need to do is show where Guy Power verfied Albert Church's sokeship who in turn verified Reidner's sokeship who then verified mine. I am then, according to tradition, free to issue sokeships.

It's a "slippery slope" but it was Power Sensei who sent us down it.

 

[arnisador]

Soke is an inherited title, if I understand correctly...I don't see how any board could have the power to grant it. It's like one of those Internet sites that'll make you a Baron or Duke. It has no standing to grant such a title.

 

[James Kovacich]

Inherited only and NOT headfounder? Look at how the names changed on all these systems over the years.
http://www.scientific-streetfighting.com/TMA.html

Seems headfounders have been around for a long time.

 

[kenpojujitsu]

That is what I always thought.
But in the world of Budo, guy Power carries a lot of weight. If he says that Church (and Petit) are true Soke, then in the eyes of a lot of people, then they are.

I don't know how many of his Japanese followers will accept this idea of an American Sokeship council, but some may feel they have no choice. What he says now is every bit as good as if Nakamura Taizaburo Soke spoke the words himself.

What's done is done. And American Sokeships are now a done deal.

 

[James Kovacich]

This also has ramifications beyond ISHH.
Church certified dozens of people as Soke and they have in turn done so too.

You have people like Clement Reidener - Soke of Shiho Karano Ryu who has certified dozens of people as Soke.

So in one stroke of his pen, Mr. Power has lent his name, credability and reputation to an entire industry.

That does not mean all sokeship boards were legitimized. But many of them.

All I need to do now is to pay Soke Reidner my fee to get my own sokeship. When questioned about it, all I need to do is show where Guy Power verfied Albert Church's sokeship who in turn verified Reidner's sokeship who then verified mine. I am then, according to tradition, free to issue sokeships.

It's a "slippery slope" but it was Power Sensei who sent us down it.

It seems that the "Sokes" that YOU know are the frauds. Or is morons more appropriate?

In case you take offense. My instructor has been slammed in this thread and you joined in and said they were all morons.

 

[kenpojujitsu]

Actually, I used to think that Church was a fraud. And in fact have publicly stated that. I am in now way affiliated with these people.

But Church was documented to be a true and authentic Soke.

Here's what you have to understand about Soke. He is the "mediator between the gods and the lineage". He is the "head master" and essentially "chief instructor" of the ryuha. But he is also the high priest, in effect he is "God on earth" and what he says goes! If Soke says grass is now blue, then the grass is blue. If Soke says "ok, my friend is Soke too". Then his friend is Soke. His followers do not get to vote. They do what God says or they can leave.

If you don't recognize Albert Church as the God of Kamishin Ryu (which by the way means God Heart School), then you leave and do something else. If you do see him as your Soke/God's Right Hand Man, then you do what he says and believe what he told you to believe.

 

[Flying Crane]

Apparently, the idea of a Sokeship board is now acceptable.

I know you don't want to make this about specific organizations. But here is a powerful example.

The International Society of Head-Founders and Head-Family run by Soke John Williams has suddenly gained respectability and acceptance. I am sure this will open up the door to other organizations like this finding acceptance.

The ISHH has recognized Albert Church and his successor Ted Petit as rightful and legitimate Soke of Nippon Kamishin Ryu - a roughly 1900 year old art with roots in China.

ISHH has taken a lot of heat for doing things like this. But in this case they enlisted Guy Power Sensei to endorse thier findings.

For those of you who do not know, Guy Power is a highly regarded expert on matters of Budo and history. He is the senior ranking American (and perhaps non-Japanese) in Nakamura Ryu. His opinions carry a lot of weight.

Soke Petit is described as one of Mr Power's "long time disciple".

Having someone in Mr. Power's position step in and endorse a sokeship on behalf of someone in an organization like the ISHH sure changes a lot of things. Atleast here in the U.S.

I don't know if Nakamura's organization in Japan agrees with Mr. Power's assessment of this sokeship. Or if any Japanese organization would recognize this. But here in the U.S. when someone can say "Guy Power said I'm a soke", it's pretty hard to argue with that.

So here's what we have;

Guy Power supports the sokeship of Albert Church and Ted Petit
What Soke says, goes.
Ted Petit is a member in good standing with the ISHH and says they too are soke. As a soke himself, he has the authority to do this.

So we now have atleast one official American sokeship council.

I am not at all sure how this makes for an Official American Sokeship Council. There is absolutely no across the board acceptance of this. Personally, before reading a couple of these threads, I have never ever heard of John Williams, Albert Church, Nippon Kamishin Ryu, Guy Power, Nakamura Ruy, or Ted Petit. These names mean nothing to me. I am not arguing about their skills. For all I know they can kick my butt up and down the hall in their sleep, but does that make them a Soke, and how does this carry any weight outside their own organizations?

Within one's organization, people can call themselves and their students whatever they want. Outside of their organization, other people can either agree to go along with this, or not. But I just fail to understand how any of this suddenly makes an American Sokeship Council "legit". What does that even mean? Who else, aside from these people and the people within their organizations, would even care?

As far as I am concerned, anybody who get wrapped up in this nonsense is wasting their time. They may have truly outstanding skills, but this "title seizing" is garbage.

 

[kamishinkan]

I should have seen where this was coming.....
I just spoke to Petit sensei and he never solicited the ISHH or paid them anything. The ISHH was posting incorrect information concerning Kamishin Ryu and Rod Sachronowski and Ron Cherry. He contacted them to correct the information. They took his paperwork and choose to add him to their site. He has never asked to be recognized by them nor has he recognized them.
Church sensei was recognized as Soke (Head Family) of Kamishin Ryu by Kuniba Sensei in the scroll that we have the copy of. It was read by Power Sensei and verified that it was in Kuniba Sensei's handwriting. Power Sensei did not recognize ANYONE, he just read the document. If Church sensei recognized someone as head of their own martial organization, suffice it to say it would probably be in the line of Kaicho. I could be wrong, but this is a far cry from the modern "give me a 100 bucks and I'll make you a SOKE.

 

[kenpojujitsu]

Flying Crane,

i appreciate your thoughts here and I understand where you are coming from.

I personally have lost a lot of my regrard for Guy Power Sensei lately. But like I said, he is a real big whig in the world of Budo. His opinions often automatically become the opinions of many, many people - here and in Japan.

If you don't recognize Albert Church and his "downline" as Soke/"God's man on earth to oversee Kamishin Ryu", then that is fine and probably good for you. But now many people do because of his words.

In terms now of the "American Sokeship Council" in this case Soke Ted Petit and the ISHH it is wholey legitimate. Where matters of Kamishin Ryu are concerned, Ted Petit speaks for God. If Ted Petit says the ISHH is a legitimate governing body for the awarding of sokeships - then it is the same as God saying it.

If you look at the following that Guy Power and Albert Church have, you are looking at tens of thousands of people. Quite a big chunk of people.
With all of the other "soke" recognized by Church and his followers, you are now well outside of just a single organization.

With a movement like that, with all those schools and students, it is hard to stand against the tide of this massive amount of people rising up to declare "the truth". It is a battle you will lose. So you either accept the legitimacy of the sokeship or you don't.

It's just like choosing a religion. You can choose Christianity, or Bhuddism. Or you can choose something else or nothing else.

In the case of the ISHH and the Albert Church organizations, the Nakamura Ryu and all the Budo organizations, teachers and students influenced by them, Albert Church is the "Godman" Or "Jesus" if you will, of Kamishin Ryu. What do you think groups of Christians would do if the Bible said that Jesus appointed Albert Church as Soke of Kamishin Ryu? I know an awful lot of people who would accept that without question.

It's the same thing here.

 

[Flying Crane]

Flying Crane,

i appreciate your thoughts here and I understand where you are coming from.

I personally have lost a lot of my regrard for Guy Power Sensei lately. But like I said, he is a real big whig in the world of Budo. His opinions often automatically become the opinions of many, many people - here and in Japan.

If you don't recognize Albert Church and his "downline" as Soke/"God's man on earth to oversee Kamishin Ryu", then that is fine and probably good for you. But now many people do because of his words.

In terms now of the "American Sokeship Council" in this case Soke Ted Petit and the ISHH it is wholey legitimate. Where matters of Kamishin Ryu are concerned, Ted Petit speaks for God. If Ted Petit says the ISHH is a legitimate governing body for the awarding of sokeships - then it is the same as God saying it.

If you look at the following that Guy Power and Albert Church have, you are looking at tens of thousands of people. Quite a big chunk of people.
With all of the other "soke" recognized by Church and his followers, you are now well outside of just a single organization.

With a movement like that, with all those schools and students, it is hard to stand against the tide of this massive amount of people rising up to declare "the truth". It is a battle you will lose. So you either accept the legitimacy of the sokeship or you don't.

It's just like choosing a religion. You can choose Christianity, or Bhuddism. Or you can choose something else or nothing else.

In the case of the ISHH and the Albert Church organizations, the Nakamura Ryu and all the Budo organizations, teachers and students influenced by them, Albert Church is the "Godman" Or "Jesus" if you will, of Kamishin Ryu. What do you think groups of Christians would do if the Bible said that Jesus appointed Albert Church as Soke of Kamishin Ryu? I know an awful lot of people who would accept that without question.

It's the same thing here.

Well, fair enough, like I said, within their organization(s) they can do what they want, and outside their organization, people (like myself) choose to either go along with it or not. It's their game and not everyone gets to, or wants to, be a player. I'm not going to argue with them about what they want to call themselves, or where the title comes from, but I certainly have my opinions about the whole thing.

I don't understand how they can have such a following, however. In what parts of the country do they have the biggest following? I have been on the west coast for almost 12 years, but grew up in the Midwest and I have never heard of these people.

 

[James Kovacich]

Soke is an ancient, traditional Japanese title. The literal translation is essentially "head of family". But if you know anything about terms like this, more often they require interpretation to undertsand them.

More accurately, Soke means "mediator between the gods and lineage". Soke is basically a kind of pope or high preist.

Often times, the founder of a koryu was called Soke. But not all the time.
Also, since there are no new ancient arts, there are no new Soke. this title is only obtained through proper inheritance. Although there have been broken lineages and a Soke was elected or appointed in some cases.

The people that run these "Sokeship Councils" and such are generally morons. You may be able to learn some basic skills in modern arts from them, such as Judo and Karate. But I never came across anyone of them that had any real advanced knowledge or a deep understanding of martial arts.

What I also find silly is that I never met anyone who had one of these "soke" titles that even knew how to pronounce it correctly. What sense does it make to hold a title that you can't even pronounce? Like I said, they are morons.

If you want a moron for a teacher, then join one of these groups.

How can you say that on 2/17/06 and this

In terms now of the "American Sokeship Council" in this case Soke Ted Petit and the ISHH it is wholey legitimate.

on 2/21/06?

For the record. My instructor is Grandmaster and does not call himself Soke but is a member in a well known Sokeship Headfounder council. There is no joining for sokeship. One needs to be a 9th degree and "recomended" for membership. They do have a masters membership but it is nowhere near the same as the headfounders membership.

 

[kenpojujitsu]

"How can you say that on 2/17/06 and this

In terms now of the "American Sokeship Council" in this case Soke Ted Petit and the ISHH it is wholey legitimate. "

Simply because it is. It is becasue Soke said it is.
Atleast in terms of Kamishin Ryu and the offshoot arts.
Remember, to Kamishin Ryu practitoners, Albert Church spoke as God.
His words are to be taken as if God spoke them directly to the lineage. That is what Soke is - the mediator between gods and the lineage.

As explained also, Guy Power is a highly respected expert on matters of Budo. He has stated unequivocably that Albert Church had been placed to oversee the Kamishin Ryu and to speak to Kamishin Ryu practioners as a representative of God.

So now you have all the thousands of Kamishin Ryu and offshoot students and teachers and all of Guy Powers followers agreeing that ISHH is a legitimate Sokeship organization. If it is not, then we are back to questioning the sokeship of Church and Petit.

There are many instances where there are questions about who is the legitimate Soke of ancient schools. But in the case of Kamishin Ryu, that is settled: Guy Power and ISHH have made thier declarations and there is no argument from the Kamishin Ryu anywhere.

The ISHH also has support from others who Church declared to be Soke, and the Soke that they declared. So now we go from there.