Sokeship Council, Grandmaster or NOT????

[TimoS]

One thing that I've been wondering: has anyone ever heard of someone that got rejected by one of these Sokeship (what a silly word, BTW) councils ? No ? Wonder why ?

 

[Neil-o-Mac]

One thing that I've been wondering: has anyone ever heard of someone that got rejected by one of these Sokeship (what a silly word, BTW) councils ? No ? Wonder why ?

I've actually considered applying to one of 'em, even though I've only trained for a year, just to show how shady they are.

 

[Gary Crawford]

When I trained with Gary Dill,he was always inviting his students though his newsletter to attend the Sokeship Council award banquet. Anybody could attend as long as they paid a fee for attending and if you want an award,there is a fee for that also. Just another way that Dill proved himself to be more about extracting money from students and stroking his own ego than he is a serious teacher.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

I heard the same thing.

 

[RRouuselot]

One thing that I've been wondering: has anyone ever heard of someone that got rejected by one of these Sokeship (what a silly word, BTW) councils ? No ? Wonder why ?

Because the only criteria for entry into one is to give them some green paper with faces of dead Presidents on them. (money)
If you got that your in.
I seem to remember Ron Goninan payinf US $1,500 for his.
That's pretty desperate. I would rayther spend $1,500 on my family instead of some stupid piece of paper.

 

[James Kovacich]

I'm currently away for the weekend teaching seminars this weekend so I'll keep this short. I've been inducted into several Halls of Fame and after going threw this process I think they're mostly crap! As far as the Grandmasters in the Soke council I see 3 that barely deserve the rank of Black Belt let alone GM!

Tim,
Please don't take this wrong. I wanted to ask you this before but the thread had been locked and I just now saw that it is unlocked.

I just wanted to know that if you think so lowly of them. Then why does your MT bio still show this:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]World Head of Family Sokeship Council -[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
“ Modern Arnis Man of the Year 2002”[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]http://www.martialtalk.com/advisors/[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

My interest is personal. Four of my instructors are members of that that organization and if only 3 (in your opinion) are worthy of a black belt, barely. Then no matter how I read it. At least one maybe ALL of my instructors are weak.

I'm not attacking. I just see a conflict of interest of sort. My instructors have been attacked greatly and I think it's right to ask.
Thank you for your time in advance.


​

[/FONT]

 

[James Kovacich]

No I am not going on the attack. That was my question all along. Initially the thread was locked and I never came back.

It just does not make sense that on this forum to speak lowly of "said organization" yet on the same site use them as a referance in their personal bio.

Like I stated numerous times here over the years I am a student in 4 systems under members of that "said organization."

I've trained in many systems over the years and ALL those I have bad blood and with ALL those who do not like the internet are not mentioned anywhere on my site and technically, since they trained me I could referance them.

I asked a questioned that to me seems like "burning both sides of the candle stick."

PLEASE DON'T MISTAKE THIS FOR DISRESPECT BECAUSE I DO RESPECT TIM BECAUSE I SEE THE REFECTION OF HIS STUDENTS THAT I RESPECT WHO I'VE MET ONLINE AND I BELEIVE ARE GENUINE.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

First off I would like to apologize for my delay in responding to your post. I was teaching in Sweden and when I got back there was backlog of work for me to do.

As far as my bio goes, I didn’t put it up on MT. Mr. Hubbard posted an outdated bio. My current bio is here: http://datuhartman.com/bio.html At one time I did claim my hall of fame awards, but since I was exposed to the inner workings I no longer do so.

As far as my comment goes I may have missed communicated my feelings in haste. What I was referring to was the quality of some of the inductees to the Hall of Fame. I don’t know the quality of the orgs training. There are many high caliber inductees, but there are those who barley rate as Black Belts.

Now my post was almost 8 months ago, so my thoughts aren’t that fresh on this topic. I also had a couple beers in me at the time. I’ve had a couple interesting experiences with these kinds of Hall of Fame which has left me with a less than favorable impression for the whole thing.

:asian:

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

There are enough good people associated with the Sokeship
council, however there are unfortunately an equal number or
more people who are probably not so good. The way I see it
the Sokeship Council was designed as a money making
institution, where people could go and pay a fee to be
recognized as an expert in their field. With little or no
background check or really not caring about the persons
background the Council then awards the Soke or Grandmaster
title. What makes this council able to judge expertise in a
given field that some of their members may not be even
familiar with? The biggest issue I have is that you really are
not receiving an award on merit when all you simply have to
do is pay some money for it. There are some good people
in these councils but unfortuantely there are as many bad.
For me I want nothing to do with them!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

I would have to say that after being inducted into 5 different Halls of Fame, it seemed that only one of them wasn't about the money.:asian:

 

[James Kovacich]

Thank you Tim. I have an idea why your students are dedicated. I've "peeped" on many of your posts and you are a level-headed guy and with no doubt a great leader.

 

[James Kovacich]

Brian, I'm not trying to revive a dead horse here just wanted to know if you are talking about all sokeships or the one i was talking about? I really think there may be mis-information out there going from computer to computer to computer.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

James,

Like I said I do believe that there are good people within some
of these Sokeships councils and I am not about to impune them.
However I do believe that there are others within these same
organizations that are there for less than honorable reasons.
Everyone of these organizations has charged in some way shape
or form for the awards that they have given. Whether it be
an outright fee for your Sokeship or a fee to sit at the dinner
table and then receive your award. Certainly these councils as
they get bigger can then become more selective so to speak as
they need the money less. However do not kid yourself or anyone
else that these organizations are not out to make a profit and
to profit off of the need for individuals to be recognized by
someone. I know several people who belong to some of these
organizations including the one which you are referencing and
they are good guys with good hearts. Each one of them have
paid along the way to be apart of this group. That really tells
me all that I need to know regarding the subject. I based my
opinion on talking to members of these organizations. I am not
hammering The World Head of Family Sokeship Council or any
other all I am stating is that it is not my cup of tea. If someone
wants to belong fine that is their decision. If someone does not
then that also is their decision. That's just my opinion.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[James Kovacich]

No I am not going on the attack. That was my question all along. Initially the thread was locked and I never came back.

It just does not make sense that on this forum to speak lowly of "said organization" yet on the same site use them as a referance in their personal bio.

Like I stated numerous times here over the years I am a student in 4 systems under members of that "said organization."

I've trained in many systems over the years and ALL those I have bad blood and with ALL those who do not like the internet are not mentioned anywhere on my site and technically, since they trained me I could referance them.

I asked a questioned that to me seems like "burning both sides of the candle stick."

PLEASE DON'T MISTAKE THIS FOR DISRESPECT BECAUSE I DO RESPECT TIM BECAUSE I SEE THE REFECTION OF HIS STUDENTS THAT I RESPECT WHO I'VE MET ONLINE AND I BELEIVE ARE GENUINE.

01-12-2006 03:04 AM
Yes you are going on the attack

Is this ever going to die. Tim answered me honorably unlike the negativity I'm receiving. If you have a problem with me why don't you PM me or the sign rep points you're giving me and I'll PM you.

 

[James Kovacich]

Heres another.

02-03-2006 11:45 PM
Highly inflametory

What is this crap? You're dinging me for sticking up for MY instructor and MY instructors instructor?? If you have a problem with me why don't you PM me or the sign rep points you're giving me and I'll PM you.

 

[Lisa]

Akja,

I understand you frustration with the neg rep you are receiving. May I please suggest that you direct your concerns to any one of the Admins on the site. They can further investigate the neg rep that you are receiving and hopefully provide some feedback to you.

Lisa Deneka
MT Mod

 

[kenpojujitsu]

Soke is an ancient, traditional Japanese title. The literal translation is essentially "head of family". But if you know anything about terms like this, more often they require interpretation to undertsand them.

More accurately, Soke means "mediator between the gods and lineage". Soke is basically a kind of pope or high preist.

Often times, the founder of a koryu was called Soke. But not all the time.
Also, since there are no new ancient arts, there are no new Soke. this title is only obtained through proper inheritance. Although there have been broken lineages and a Soke was elected or appointed in some cases.

The people that run these "Sokeship Councils" and such are generally morons. You may be able to learn some basic skills in modern arts from them, such as Judo and Karate. But I never came across anyone of them that had any real advanced knowledge or a deep understanding of martial arts.

What I also find silly is that I never met anyone who had one of these "soke" titles that even knew how to pronounce it correctly. What sense does it make to hold a title that you can't even pronounce? Like I said, they are morons.

If you want a moron for a teacher, then join one of these groups.

 

[James Kovacich]

Soke is an ancient, traditional Japanese title. The literal translation is essentially "head of family". But if you know anything about terms like this, more often they require interpretation to undertsand them.

More accurately, Soke means "mediator between the gods and lineage". Soke is basically a kind of pope or high preist.

Often times, the founder of a koryu was called Soke. But not all the time.
Also, since there are no new ancient arts, there are no new Soke. this title is only obtained through proper inheritance. Although there have been broken lineages and a Soke was elected or appointed in some cases.

The people that run these "Sokeship Councils" and such are generally morons. You may be able to learn some basic skills in modern arts from them, such as Judo and Karate. But I never came across anyone of them that had any real advanced knowledge or a deep understanding of martial arts.

What I also find silly is that I never met anyone who had one of these "soke" titles that even knew how to pronounce it correctly. What sense does it make to hold a title that you can't even pronounce? Like I said, they are morons.

If you want a moron for a teacher, then join one of these groups.

http://www.answers.com/topic/soke
It appears that the "word" soke is not unique to Japanese martial arts.

1. In early English law, the right of local jurisdiction, generally one of the feudal rights of lordship.
2. The district over which soke jurisdiction was exercised.

The word 'soke' has several meanings:

• Soke may refer to an early Western jurisdictional concept.
• Soke is also the romaji for a Japanese term meaning "head master of a style" (especially a style of martial arts)

I'd prefer training under a "moron" that I new than someone with a blank profile talking caca.

 

[TimoS]

• Soke is also the romaji for a Japanese term meaning "head master of a style" (especially a style of martial arts)

Not quite. It could be "head master of a family", and the family there is really a family, i.e. the system (and it doesn't have to be a martial art) has been handed down from father to son

http://www.koryubooks.com/library/wbodiford1.html

I quite like the conclusion

In concluding, it is difficult to condone the use of obscure Japanese terminology to describe American social practices for which perfectly acceptable English words already exist. One must struggle to imagine how any non-Japanese could call himself a "soke" in English except as a joke. At the same time it is also difficult to regard this term with any special reverence or to become overly troubled by its misuse among self-proclaimed "grandmasters" and "founders." During the Tokugawa period the word soke designated a commercial system of hereditary privilege that took advantage of the ignorance of ordinary people for financial gain. Perhaps teachers of commercial martial art schools in America who adopt the title soke for themselves are more historically accurate in their usage than they themselves realize.

 

[Makalakumu]

I started a thread that contained the quote, "when everyone is a master, no one is." And I kinda think it applies here because it explains why so many "sokes" are popping up. The title of "master" is really no big deal anymore...in effect, it has become trite. The same thing will happen to the word soke. When every one is a soke, no one will be. So then what? Is this when the title "ubersoke" is invented? IMHO, this is the direction that these soke councils are going. Eventually, you will have someone on top of the pile calling themselves "leader" of some sorts. Leader of the sokes. I would never join one and even though there are some really good MAists on councils like these, personally, I would have a few questions regarding their association before I would train with them. I just don't understand why proving oneself in the dojo isn't good enough anymore.