SOKE or not to SOKE that is the Question

[James Kovacich]

1)[font=&quot] [/font]I think they should have trained in some legit art for a long time, not just a couple of years here and there in different arts.

2)[font=&quot] [/font]I agree with verifying the credentials but I am not sure who would be qualified to sit on such a board.



I guess a bigger question might be Why do we even need Soke titles? What good are they and what purpose do they serve?

And that brings us back to my Sigung who has a great Gung Fu system but what never certified. He dosen't use the titles. But realistically he is a Grandmaster and his son is the sole inheritor and he definately is a Master/Grandmaster.

I think Sigungs 40+ years in the arts is enough to qualify his system. He was James Lee's student for 10 years. That alone adds up!

 

[RRouuselot]

In the Sokeship we've been discussing. Of the Grandmasters that I know of. They use Hanshi, Professor and some Grandmaster but not Soke.

I know Tak Kubota calls himself Soke or at least his students do from what I've seen.

There are some names on that list that have earned the same rank as me, some are lower, and then all of a sudden they have become “Grandmasters” or “Soke”….I find that odd.

I also find it odd that many of those names claim to have studied or currently study Japanese/Okinawan arts and yet they out rank most of the Japanese/Okinawan teachers in the same styles…..I have no doubt that if some of those names on their were to compare their knowledge against some of the Japanese/Okinawan teachers in the same styles the “Grandmaster-Sokes” would get their butts lit up like a cheap cigar

 

[RRouuselot]

And that brings us back to my Sigung who has a great Gung Fu system but what never certified. He dosen't use the titles. But realistically he is a Grandmaster and his son is the sole inheritor and he definately is a Master/Grandmaster.

I think Sigungs 40+ years in the arts is enough to qualify his system. He was James Lee's student for 10 years. That alone adds up!

If anyone knows anything about Chinese styles, history, culture then they would know that Chinese do not normally use a “grading system”, dan ranks and so on. They may use the title “Shrfu” = teacher/master.

I would be really suspicious of some Chinese person that used the title Soke since it is Japanese

 

[VSanhodo]

When I began this post, I never thought I would get such a large response. I must say I am pleased. Personally I disagree with most of the titles out there. I must say Ive learned alot from many of the posts.
Someone posted a reply with a large number of Soke, Grand Masters, Masters etc. I must be getting old. I have either met, know or know of many if not most of the names on the WHFSC list provided. Most are super nice people but Grand Masters, Masters, Soke etc Not even close. Years ago I participated in a seminar presented by John Peligrini, He presented Hapikido, I have to tell you I damn near peeeed in my pants, I havent laughed so hard in my entire life. It was one of the few seminars I actually walked out of. Most of the names on the list are people who are into titles and hob nobbing and have very llittle actual skill beyond impressing white belts and the uneducated.
Now with all that being said. I am not fond of patches on Uniforms. I too train in Ryu-Te and formally trained in JuJitsu where we never wore any patches at all. In addition we didnt wear belts at all. Hell I trained for seven years before I ever even asked what rank I was. to this day I could careless about rank, Titles etc.
I feel there is way tooooooooooooooo much emphasis placed on associations, titles etc. Let me make this simple, TRAIN MORE and worry less about titles, rank and belts.
Prior to moving down here to Florida this past May, I taught in my own private dojo where my students were not awarded belts. I simply feel in todays society there is way tooooo much emphasis placed on Bs and not enough in Training and searching for more knowledge and a deeper and more thourgh understanding of the arts and ourselves.

Thanks again for all of your posts, responses and opinions, all are appreciated.

San

 

[James Kovacich]

If anyone knows anything about Chinese styles, history, culture then they would know that Chinese do not normally use a “grading system”, dan ranks and so on. They may use the title “Shrfu” = teacher/master.

I would be really suspicious of some Chinese person that used the title Soke since it is Japanese

I was referring to the fact that you mentioned training in a in a legit art for a long time. But I think I did kinda answer my own question when I mentioned that he trained under James Lee for 10 years.

James taught Sil Lum until he met Bruce. Sigung started in Sil Lum and then Jun Fan, through James. Sifu and Sigung will never use a title but it gets me when I see how advanced they are and then there are so many "legit" out there and are not anywhere near the level of Sifu / Sigung,

 

[James Kovacich]

When I began this post, I never thought I would get such a large response. I must say I am pleased. Personally I disagree with most of the titles out there. I must say Ive learned alot from many of the posts.
Someone posted a reply with a large number of Soke, Grand Masters, Masters etc. I must be getting old. I have either met, know or know of many if not most of the names on the WHFSC list provided. Most are super nice people but Grand Masters, Masters, Soke etc Not even close. Years ago I participated in a seminar presented by John Peligrini, He presented Hapikido, I have to tell you I damn near peeeed in my pants, I havent laughed so hard in my entire life. It was one of the few seminars I actually walked out of. Most of the names on the list are people who are into titles and hob nobbing and have very llittle actual skill beyond impressing white belts and the uneducated.
Now with all that being said. I am not fond of patches on Uniforms. I too train in Ryu-Te and formally trained in JuJitsu where we never wore any patches at all. In addition we didnt wear belts at all. Hell I trained for seven years before I ever even asked what rank I was. to this day I could careless about rank, Titles etc.
I feel there is way tooooooooooooooo much emphasis placed on associations, titles etc. Let me make this simple, TRAIN MORE and worry less about titles, rank and belts.
Prior to moving down here to Florida this past May, I taught in my own private dojo where my students were not awarded belts. I simply feel in todays society there is way tooooo much emphasis placed on Bs and not enough in Training and searching for more knowledge and a deeper and more thourgh understanding of the arts and ourselves.

Thanks again for all of your posts, responses and opinions, all are appreciated.

San

San, you sound like a level headed guy that knows where he wants to go and your on your way. :asian:

 

[RRouuselot]

........
Now with all that being said. I am not fond of patches on Uniforms. I too train in Ryu-Te .....
San

I may have asked this before but I forgot...who did you train in RyuTe® with?

Sorry, I just found the post where you mentioned who you trained with.

 

[VSanhodo]

San, you sound like a level headed guy that knows where he wants to go and your on your way. :asian:

Thank you, I dont know if my 15 year old daugher would agree with you but thanks. I tell you all the training in the world does not get you ready for teenagers.
Thanks again
San

 

[VSanhodo]

I may have asked this before but I forgot...who did you train in RyuTe® with?

Sorry, I just found the post where you mentioned who you trained with.

Thanks for your posts, Ive learnd alot from your posts. Mr Logue says you live in Japan and are very knowledgable, thats enough for me. Thanks again for your imput
San

 

[RRouuselot]

Thanks for your posts, Ive learnd alot from your posts. Mr Logue says you live in Japan and are very knowledgable, thats enough for me. Thanks again for your imput
San

I think he was just being nice by saying that since I am 100% sure he could kick my butt into the middle of next year and not even work up a sweat.

 

[VSanhodo]

I think he was just being nice by saying that since I am 100% sure he could kick my butt into the middle of next year and not even work up a sweat.

HI Robert:
I have to say Mr. Logue is by far one of not only the finest Martial artist to be found anywhere but also a super nice guy as well. I clearly would not want to be on his bad side. Tashi is scary good. For those ppl who read your and this post and dont know him and his skill. I think it is fair to say he is amoung the few martial artist out there who can walk the talk.
Take Care
San

 

[The Kai]

If you want a american soke council why use the word soke?? The term is still in use in Japan, why not use an american word?

 

[RRouuselot]

If you want a american soke council why use the word soke?? The term is still in use in Japan, why not use an american word?

How about something like "Grand Poo bah" or "High Muka-Muka"?

 

[Rich Parsons]

How about something like "Grand Poo bah" or "High Muka-Muka"?

Grand Poo Bah might get you in trouble with the some people who have used this before. Therefore I like your sugestion of High Muka-Muka. :asian:

 

[James Kovacich]

If you want a american soke council why use the word soke?? The term is still in use in Japan, why not use an american word?

You know I see your point. Why should Americans (when teaching martial arts) count in Japanese, bow on and off the mat. Drop ALL the Japanese termonology! Sensei, Shihan, Osu, all should be dropped, in America, right? :uhyeah:

 

[The Kai]

Right. At some point Okinwa arts became seperat from Chinese arts. Japanese arts became seperated from thier Okinwan roots. At what poiunt do we seperate?

If we are grown up enough to have our own masters and master councils, why still use japanese titles for validity??

 

[James Kovacich]

I know Shihan has been greatly critisized. Some peoples arts evolved from several countries of origin. Is it disrespecful to not credit them?

After all, these countries are the ones critisizing us for pretty much everything we do as far as martial arts goes.

 

[loki09789]

Prior to moving down here to Florida this past May, I taught in my own private dojo where my students were not awarded belts. I simply feel in todays society there is way tooooo much emphasis placed on Bs and not enough in Training and searching for more knowledge and a deeper and more thourgh understanding of the arts and ourselves.

Thanks again for all of your posts, responses and opinions, all are appreciated.

San

That is why I only view 'rank' as an indicator of where a student is in a curriculum. Learn to crawl before you can walk....and so on. If someone is investing more importance than that to the rank....that is their problem - OR if someone is assuming that 'you think your bad because you are an xyz belt...' that is their problem.

"ranking" within your own system is an instructor's concern ONLY so that he/she knows what to teach next and to evaluate where the student is in the overall system.

The assocations, organziation/affiliation issues are business/political and really don't have any impact on what happens on the floor IMO. But, to assume that those that are affiliated are automatically bad at their art is not a good way to operate JUST like assuming that they have to be good because of all those titles and such is not a good way to operate. Meet the people, watch their students move and interact and that will tell you volumes about their art, their character and their quality as human beings.

 

[kamishinkan]

I have been reading over this thread and for the most part agree with the fact that the "Soke board" for money scheme has been abused and has discredited American martial arts. I would like to make a couple of comments about the use of the term Soke (keeping in mind that I am just a student and not an "expert" in this subject). 1. It seems that traditionally, those who left main line systems in Japan to form their own arts usually was either a Menkyo Kaiden (or equivelent) or was already holding a Soke-Dairi (representative of the head-family, NOT inheritor elect as that term has been used in the US)position in the art in which they left. Because of this to leave an art not in this type of position and creating your own art may be a little suspect anyway (this is not always true). 2. A truly Soke based system would be one of heritage (in the family prefered), so to found a system and use the term Soke may be kind of inappropriate. It would seem that Shodai (first generation) or kaicho (president of organization) or a combination of this may be more appropriate. If the system lasts and is passed to the next generation (assuming this system is tied to a more traditional Japanese system and the art is passed to a child of the founder, preferably) Nidai-Soke may be used then. This is all assuming that the art is based in Japanese tradition and uses such terms as Sensei, Sempai, Kohai, etc. If the art uses these terms and is founded by a person who has been ranked and placed in this position (as explained earlier) I think that it may be appropriate. I would say that I could probably only think of a handful of people in the US that fits into these catagories. Just another opinion.

 

[loki09789]

I have been reading over this thread and for the most part agree with the fact that the "Soke board" for money scheme has been abused and has discredited American martial arts. I would like to make a couple of comments about the use of the term Soke (keeping in mind that I am just a student and not an "expert" in this subject). 1. It seems that traditionally, those who left main line systems in Japan to form their own arts usually was either a Menkyo Kaiden (or equivelent) or was already holding a Soke-Dairi (representative of the head-family, NOT inheritor elect as that term has been used in the US)position in the art in which they left. Because of this to leave an art not in this type of position and creating your own art may be a little suspect anyway (this is not always true). 2. A truly Soke based system would be one of heritage (in the family prefered), so to found a system and use the term Soke may be kind of inappropriate. It would seem that Shodai (first generation) or kaicho (president of organization) or a combination of this may be more appropriate. If the system lasts and is passed to the next generation (assuming this system is tied to a more traditional Japanese system and the art is passed to a child of the founder, preferably) Nidai-Soke may be used then. This is all assuming that the art is based in Japanese tradition and uses such terms as Sensei, Sempai, Kohai, etc. If the art uses these terms and is founded by a person who has been ranked and placed in this position (as explained earlier) I think that it may be appropriate. I would say that I could probably only think of a handful of people in the US that fits into these catagories. Just another opinion.

The problem with any term borrowed/appropriated from another culture (as EVER WORD IN AMERICAN STANDARD ENGLISH IS) is that once it is 'owned' by that new user...it will be defined differently than the original context.

Just look at terms like 'tabi' and 'sensei' from Japanese that are used by Western/English speakers on this board. The automatic context is 'Martial arts' when you hear them and therefore assume that these terms will only be used in martial arts in the cultural origin.

"Tabi" are worn by construction workers all the time and are not some sign of secret societal membership. "Sensei" simply means teacher and is used for dance instructors, school teachers...anyone that is recognized as 'teacher' at that time.

"Soke" has joined the Western Martian arts language dictionary. In Japanese, the term would apply to non-martial arts 'arts' or organizations/felial inheritances as well. My main concern is really that - whether in its Japanese or its Western Martial artist usages - that the term have some standard of quality and respectability.

Those that don't think it does now or ever will...they don't have to recognize it. But the assumption that it automatically is corrupted/abused/commercially motivated only is unfair.