SOKE or not to SOKE that is the Question

[Andrew Green]

1. Nope, if I learn that the term "Sensei" means that a person is a teacher, I respect that title/rank even though it may not be part of my organization. If I meet a BB in TKD, I will respect that rank and the person that wears it. Respect doesn't have to mean I will take orders from them - just that I won't assume it isn't credible.

Right off the bat, "Sensei" is neither a title, or a rank, it is something that us western martial artists like to missuse, like "soke"

I'll respect anyone for their own virtues, it's got nothing to do with thier fashion statement....

2. No I am not, what I AM looking at is the behavior of RESPECT between organizations and how the giving of respect reflects on the character of the individual giving it EVEN WHEN YOU DON"T KNOW. In some cultures this is a simple matter of hospitallity/civility. It doesn't have to be blind or absolute. You can 'respectfully' disagree/decline/remove/disengage/disassociate...I think your confusing 'respect' with 'gullible' or 'blind obedience' or something like that.

Nope, not at all. But simply by virtue of having an organization you are putting up barriors to working together.Why do you feel organizations are important? If the goal is for us all to "Just get along" why segrate ourselves?

3. Actually, I have said many times, that rank is a powerful curriculum tool in organizing the progression of training within a system and marking clear short and long term goals for students and instructors.

Ok, basically marketing and retention, I agree to that.

Beyond that, as a tool for reputation/authority over others/ego stroking/politics, I think it is a waste of time. Abuses of rank and what it really means have created many problems.

Ding! While the other claim might be "ideal" this is "reality".

Even by virtue of the word "rank" it implies a heirarchy for control and authority. Having levels and progression is great, but belt rank is something just asking to be abused....

4. Bull, to put it gently . Outside influences can only take affect internally if the people 'inside' let it. The damage/accountability is internal. I don't blame rap music for drugs or murder and I won't blame WWE for the lack of real character in MA.

Wrong, this is our society and our culture. It effects everything we do. People do not magically change their beliefs and behaviours as soon as they step onto a mat, those things are a part of who we are. We may not like it but our society is heavily influenced by the media, and their are not many examples of good sportsmanship left, there are lots of examples of poor sportsmanship. In fact one might get the impression that in order to succeed in sports sportsmanship is a hinderance.

 

[James Kovacich]

Recognition from my Instructor[/font][/size]

2. Recognition from my Tae Kwon Do colleagues and peers

3. Recognition from the Kukkiwon Council-the highest ranking WTF Instructors in the world.


Peter Urban. Promoted himself to 10th Dan. And why is he referred to as "Maestro"?

But hey, if you want to join these organizations because you need the ego trip, have at it. Just looking at the names on the lists makes me not want to join.

Is it true that TKD's founder was certified in Japan but Japan has no control over the Kukkiwon Council? :uhyeah: Did he go out out on his own and promote himself to the top, did he? :uhyeah:

 

[Ray]

Speaking of ranking and rating...as a former chess geek (still a geek, just not playing chess much) I think it has a fabulous rating system.

If you win a game against someone you (may) get additional rating points. If the person is rated very much higher than you, then you get more rating points...if the person is rated very much lower than you, then you may get zero points.

If you lose, same idea, you probably loose points. If you tie, then you can get points depending on how much higher the other guy's rating is.

I'm not sure how NBL/SKI do their rankings/ratings.

If it means so much (to somebody apparently) to have rank and titles, then some method of ranking could probably be devised for martial artists. So many points is a "grandmaster, master, expert, A, B, C player, etc" You could put people in categories (old people like me, young people like kids, etc).

I would persue this, but I'm still trying to patent my belly button lint filter idea.

 

[loki09789]

1. Right off the bat, "Sensei" is neither a title, or a rank, it is something that us western martial artists like to missuse, like "soke"

I'll respect anyone for their own virtues, it's got nothing to do with thier fashion statement....

2. Nope, not at all. But simply by virtue of having an organization you are putting up barriors to working together.Why do you feel organizations are important? If the goal is for us all to "Just get along" why segrate ourselves?

3. Ok, basically marketing and retention, I agree to that. Ding! While the other claim might be "ideal" this is "reality".

Even by virtue of the word "rank" it implies a heirarchy for control and authority. Having levels and progression is great, but belt rank is something just asking to be abused....


4. Wrong, this is our society and our culture. It effects everything we do. People do not magically change their beliefs and behaviours as soon as they step onto a mat, those things are a part of who we are. We may not like it but our society is heavily influenced by the media, and their are not many examples of good sportsmanship left, there are lots of examples of poor sportsmanship. In fact one might get the impression that in order to succeed in sports sportsmanship is a hinderance.

1. Sensei, in some systems is a 'rank' and a 'title' that has standards that have to be met before a person can claim it. It simply translates as 'teacher' from Japanese and my cousins used the term for anyone who was given that role/job over them in public schools. I am a licensed 'teacher' and that requires that I meet standards and requirements to be able to use that properly as a 'title' for my role/job. I am 'ranked' as a 'probationary teacher' based on my level of certification. There are equivalent uses in some martial art systems.

2. Why do we have colleges, families, business names? I equate a martial art system to a type of 'schooling system.' It is distinct in academic curriculum, philosophy, application.....therefore it should be recognized as distinct. That identifier does not automatically make it a point of 'barrier' as much as any ego/elitism/inferiority complex of those that abuse it to serve their own purpose - no different than any religion can be corrupted. Getting along with someone that is different does not require homogony.

3. Well honestly, my experience in general has been that your 'ideal' has been my personal 'reality' when it comes to rank/curriculum issues more often than not. Rank simply indicates where you are in the training in my organization as well as those that we train with. Very few of the people that we contact really sweat 'honorifics' and such. PG Tom Bolden heads his own "American Arnis" organization and I call him 'Tom' all the time. Punong Guro is NOT the same as GM/SOKE by any means but that is the term he uses. GM Bobby Taboada will answer to "Bobby" all the time and is very down to earth about 'rank/title.'

So maybe it isn't so much 'Reality' as 'Perception.' The idea that Rank=Class/Caste differences is only one application. Craftsman have rankings based on skill that does not afford them any authority. Things like the term "Master" can and do at times simply mean mastery of a skill NOT 'lord'.

4. Wrong, wrong. Are you a victim of 'society/culture' or do you make conscious decisions and choices? Of course there are things that are cultural/societal. But, at the moment of decision what we do is within our power. Do I punch that guy in the mouth or do I walk away? Choice. Do I act in a way that speaks to MY character and in a way that I WANT to be or do I simply react and let the situation rule me? Choice.

You are correct, it isn't magic. It is a conscious attention to knowing what you are, what you want to be and the tools that will get you there. Character.

How does this relate to a discussion on Sokeship and Councels that recognize those that are either invited or apply?

Well, honestly it relates because of the assumptions of low motives only that seems to come up when things like this are discussed. YES people are making a living doing martial arts. YES, some of them participate in Sokeship councels and YES these things make money....God forbid that you earn a living doing what you love! That doesn't automatically mean that there is no moral fiber in HOW people make that money or what these people WON'T do in order to make money. To assume that it does is bigotous and narrow minded and smears the reputations of some pretty decent people. Are they perfect? No, but then neither are any of us.

 

[James Kovacich]

Yes

Mixed martial arts is a good excuse to not use rank BUT it does not mean to abandon the concept either. I don't know where you are in the MMA realm but I do know where this MMA'ist / 10th Degree Black Belt in Hawaiin Kempo is, and he awards rank. See anyone you know? :uhyeah:
http://www.knucklepit.com/mixed-martial-arts-john_hackleman.htm
http://thepit.cmasdirect.com/site/view/Home.pml;jsessionid=FF68036F420A53592F66F354105A94CD

 

[RRouuselot]

So your a 5th now. Is your Gi full of patches now? :uhyeah:

Nope.... a bit higher, and only the association patch. why do you ask?

 

[James Kovacich]

Nope.... a bit higher, and only the association patch. why do you ask?

I'm glad if anyone deserves it you do.
I know HOW you like a lot of patches.

 

[RRouuselot]

I'm glad if anyone deserves it you do.
I know HOW you like a lot of patches.

OK, I give. What’s with all the patches comments?

Are you making a joke or something?

In our Assoc. we have one single solitary patch, so if it’s a joke I’m not getting it.

 

[James Kovacich]

OK, I give. What’s with all the patches comments?

Are you making a joke or something?

In our Assoc. we have one single solitary patch, so if it’s a joke I’m not getting it.

I remembered your dislike of gi's full of patches.

 

[RRouuselot]

I remembered your dislike of gi's full of patches.

Uh..yeah...OK...whatever....

 

[James Kovacich]

Uh..yeah...OK...whatever....

) Agreed
2) Again I agree
3) Maybe someone should put a Superman patch on their belt
Actually fon't even get me started on patches plastered all over Dogi....
__________________
Regards,

Robert Rousselot
Japan Tel: 090-4717-8418
Int. Tel: 81+90-4717-8418

RYUSHIKAN DOJO HOMEPAGE:

:uhyeah:

 

[RRouuselot]

) Agreed
2) Again I agree
3) Maybe someone should put a Superman patch on their belt
Actually fon't even get me started on patches plastered all over Dogi....
__________________
Regards,

Robert Rousselot
Japan Tel: 090-4717-8418
Int. Tel: 81+90-4717-8418

RYUSHIKAN DOJO HOMEPAGE:

:uhyeah:

Yeah, I wrote it.....and your point is.....??????
I am still failing to see what your fascination with this patch stuff is or how it relates to anything.

 

[James Kovacich]

Yeah, I wrote it.....and your point is.....??????
I am still failing to see what your fascination with this patch stuff is or how it relates to anything.

Are you taking me for an idiot? You asked me about my comment about the pathches.
My answer is it's obvious how you feel about them as well as sokeships. You clearly let it be known how you feel.

I have no facination, you are the one that seems to though.

 

[RRouuselot]

Are you taking me for an idiot? You asked me about my comment about the pathches.
My answer is it's obvious how you feel about them as well as sokeships. You clearly let it be known how you feel.

I have no facination, you are the one that seems to though.

There must be something lost over the internet in your posts. I am full aware of my feelings towards gi patches but I am wondering why you are trying to remind me of this and ask me if my gi is “full of patches now”.

 

[James Kovacich]

There must be something lost over the internet in your posts. I am full aware of my feelings towards gi patches but I am wondering why you are trying to remind me of this and ask me if my gi is “full of patches now”.

It was a sarcastic joke. I knew you didn't have a gi full of patches.

 

[RRouuselot]

It was a sarcastic joke. I knew you didn't have a gi full of patches.

I see

 

[James Kovacich]

Someone thinks I've bent the truth a bit. I'd like to know where?

 

[tshadowchaser]

Mod. Note.
Please, return to the original topic.
Sheldon Bedell
-MT Moderator-

 

[RRouuselot]

Hi Folks:
1)[font=&quot] [/font]What creditentials should a person have to become a Soke? Also,
2) Personally I feel their should be some type of testing board and more importantly a persons creditentails should somehow have to be verified not just a pat on the back in a good ole boy group and then pooof your a Soke.

1)[font=&quot] [/font]I think they should have trained in some legit art for a long time, not just a couple of years here and there in different arts.

2)[font=&quot] [/font]I agree with verifying the credentials but I am not sure who would be qualified to sit on such a board.



I guess a bigger question might be Why do we even need Soke titles? What good are they and what purpose do they serve?

 

[James Kovacich]

In the Sokeship we've been discussing. Of the Grandmasters that I know of. They use Hanshi, Professor and some Grandmaster but not Soke.

I know Tak Kubota calls himself Soke or at least his students do from what I've seen.