So what's a better "test" for martial arts other than MMA?

[drop bear]

In some ways, it's the same thing. Maybe Tony can step in and clarify if he's reading this. Every competitor who uses throws/locks/takedowns will occasionally get that one where it feels like the other guy didn't exist. Like the guy almost threw himself down for you, though you know he was trying to stay up. That feeling is where the "aiki" is, by my definition. In the aiki arts, we train to feel the point where that's possible, and to use that as often as possible. The "pure aiki" arts train only to use that - not realistic in my experience for self-defense unless you are spectacularly skilled. In NGA, for instance, we train a lot around finding that feel, how to expose that moment in common attacks and movement, but if it's not there, we'll hit them (which often opens up a new opportunity for "aiki"). I see a lot of aiki principles in some of the BJJ I've looked at. I keep wanting to roll with a BJJ black belt to see if I'm seeing what I think I see. So, someone who is really good at almost any grappling will be using some aiki principles, even if they don't use the term.


The difference with "pure aiki" training, is that if you ever add resistance by an opponent who knows as much as you do, things stagnate quickly. If both are only willing to look for purely aiki movements and techniques, both will be attacking very softly (gentle pushes, etc.) and "feeling" for the moment when their opponent responds with a small, significant gap that allows that pure aiki response. It turns into a dance. That dance can be a useful training technique at times, but too much of it removes the training from the realities of an attacker.

If the opponent knows as much, and is willing to go non-aiki, they have an advantage. There are open moments when a takedown/throw/lock will work, but will take some moderate force (which means it's not purely aiki). The one who is going purely aiki will pass up that opportunity, while his opponent will take it...and win. The self-defense approach within an aiki art, obviously, is to train both aiki and non-aiki applications of techniques.

Do you feel that will become an issue in a MMA match?

 

[drop bear]

I can - just not with those techniques at speed. We practice those much slower, or move fast to the point of application and release the technique before completion. Both are approximations that keep the uke safe.

And, yes, we can test it live - we do it often enough. So, for a standing arm bar, for instance, if I'm going at speed and with resistance with someone of reasonable skill, I'll go for that technique and release the arm as I apply it. My partner will know what just happened and will stop to reset our grappling/sparring. If I didn't have control of his body and it was unlikely I'd have had good control of his arm and body, he won't reset and will follow through as if he'd escaped the destruction (the most likely result if I try to apply it fully without that arm/body control). The same goes for the joint lock I referred to - I simply release the had as I apply the technique at speed, so there's no risk to my partner.

Of course, for all the techniques that don't have that risk, I can simply apply them to the point of control then use them as submissions, like you see in BJJ.

So then where does this idea that you are dependant on these arm breaking moves to give you an even chance in a fight come from?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Then break the arm. I am not sure what the issue is there.

And how is that useful for competition?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Do you feel that will become an issue in a MMA match?

I'm not sure what you mean by "become an issue". Are you asking if I think trying to work aiki would be problematic, or if I think aiki applications would work, or if I think being trained in them is effective for MMA, or what?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So then where does this idea that you are dependant on these arm breaking moves to give you an even chance in a fight come from?

I never said I was dependent upon them to have an even chance. I said I've trained myself to use them, and actively avoiding something you've trained to use slows you down. It's not their being unavailable that's the issue (they're also unavailable to everyone else) - it's the fact that I'd have to actively avoid them, because they're part of the core of what I do. It'd be like asking a boxer not to throw a cross. If nobody else is allowed to throw a cross, then his only issue is likely to be those folks who don't train a cross, so they don't have to pay attention to NOT doing one (they wouldn't have, anyway). It would be a useful training exercise, but not a good competition for him.

 

[drop bear]

And how is that useful for competition?

You win.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You win.

I wasn't aware there was a contest going on.

 

[Juany118]

You win.

I think I understand what he is getting at. I'll give another example. You can use bil sau for striking pressure points (under the arm, tmj, temple etc) but I tend to use phoenix eye fist or the digital thumb. When I use bil sau it is to thrust at the eyes so to use bil sau for something other than the eyes will make me slower because I will have to think about it. In competition this can get you in trouble not because of a rule but because being slower will make you more vulnerable.

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[drop bear]

I wasn't aware there was a contest going on.

If it is sparring or training you let the lock go if it is going to hurt someone. If you can skill up to better a fully resisting opponent while not trying to cripple them then life will be easier for you when you are trying to cripple them.

If it is a contest. Tear that arm off and keep it as a souvenir. That would be the advantage of a limb destruction.

 

[drop bear]

I think I understand what he is getting at. I'll give another example. You can use bil sau for striking pressure points (under the arm, tmj, temple etc) but I tend to use phoenix eye fist or the digital thumb. When I use bil sau it is to thrust at the eyes so to use bil sau for something other than the eyes will make me slower because I will have to think about it. In competition this can get you in trouble not because of a rule but because being slower will make you more vulnerable.

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So driving a knuckle into an eye rather than an index finger throws your whole game out?

As i have said. For me big gloves, little gloves, strange environments, different hand shapes, day,night. All those little elements that may mean the difference in a fight are the least of my concerns.

I don't believe in needing everything perfect before i fight someone.


I also dont have to punch people in BJJ or kick a guy during a boxing match.

 

[JP3]

One way to test one's martial arts skill/knowledge etc I stumbled upon was to have my wife, who is a really hot looking lady by the way, wear a tight miniskirt and a crop top, hair done right and some spike heels so she looked like a high-priced call girl (it was a adults-only Halloween thing), have said hot lady get one too many tequila shots in her and fire back at some smart-*** younger girl who was talking smack and have to step into the situation when the younger girl's boyfriend took offense at my wife's rather abrupt descent into obligatorily profane commentary about the other girls figure, i.e. he stepped into the developing cat fight which I, as of that time, hadn't noticed (it was loud). He stepped forward, and being more than a little inebriated, went to put his hands on my lady in what I happened to notice right then was going to be an unfriendly fashion. So, I intercepted said unfriendly hands with my own even more unfriendly ones and that took care of the set up.

It ended quickly, but not in the best way possible... which was it shouldn't have started at all. We needed to go before the security guys got there. Ah well. Talking about it the next week in class to one of my guys, we decided that perhaps getting into a bar fight with someone who has been drinking, when You've been drinking as well, might not be that great an idea.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If it is sparring or training you let the lock go if it is going to hurt someone. If you can skill up to better a fully resisting opponent while not trying to cripple them then life will be easier for you when you are trying to cripple them.

If it is a contest. Tear that arm off and keep it as a souvenir. That would be the advantage of a limb destruction.

Contests are not for practicing doing permanent damage to people.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So driving a knuckle into an eye rather than an index finger throws your whole game out?

As i have said. For me big gloves, little gloves, strange environments, different hand shapes, day,night. All those little elements that may mean the difference in a fight are the least of my concerns.

I don't believe in needing everything perfect before i fight someone.


I also dont have to punch people in BJJ or kick a guy during a boxing match.

The point is simple: the more of your training that doesn't apply to a given set of competition rules, the more likely you are to have what I call a "stutter movement", where you start to do something and have to semi-consciously change to something different. A competitor of roughly equal skill should be able to take advantage of those to great advantage. Of course, the more you train to a given set of rules, the more automatic the adjustments become - enough training for competition can pretty much remove the stutter movements, but then I'd be spending part of my training time specifically preparing for competition, which isn't my goal. (Glove differences aren't part of this, because there's no decision to be made.)

 

[Juany118]

So driving a knuckle into an eye rather than an index finger throws your whole game out?

As i have said. For me big gloves, little gloves, strange environments, different hand shapes, day,night. All those little elements that may mean the difference in a fight are the least of my concerns.

I don't believe in needing everything perfect before i fight someone.


I also dont have to punch people in BJJ or kick a guy during a boxing match.

Not what I said. If I train to only use a particular strike for target A and then decide to use it on target H I need to think about it vs it being automatic it makes you "stutter". The issue really doesn't apply to a phoenix eye fist because that is just a modified punch so the mechanics are largely the same. The bil sau however is a finger thrust and so if you are going to use it you have to practice it in a very particular way.

The same applies to a "break." If you only train to break and not to submit, then you have to "think" to not follow through on the break, which again makes you slow/hesitant/stutter.

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[drop bear]

Contests are not for practicing doing permanent damage to people.

Now you know why they call them fights.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Now you know why they call them fights.

And now you may recall one of the objections I have to some competitors. I have no interest in stepping into a competition with someone who is actually willing to purposely hurt me for the sake of a win, and there are folks who are willing to do that (in any sport). My self-defense training is all about preventing those injuries, both in training and in an actual attack.

 

[drop bear]

The point is simple: the more of your training that doesn't apply to a given set of competition rules, the more likely you are to have what I call a "stutter movement", where you start to do something and have to semi-consciously change to something different. A competitor of roughly equal skill should be able to take advantage of those to great advantage. Of course, the more you train to a given set of rules, the more automatic the adjustments become - enough training for competition can pretty much remove the stutter movements, but then I'd be spending part of my training time specifically preparing for competition, which isn't my goal. (Glove differences aren't part of this, because there's no decision to be made.)

gotcha.

Ok spending part of your time training a different skill set does not take away from your understanding of martial arts. It enhances is.

Training one skill set and then not being able to mentally or physically shift or adapt to a new environment does take away from your understanding of martial arts.

I believe you need to approach martial arts with an open mind to really gain from it. rather than be fixed in place conceptually.

 

[drop bear]

And now you may recall one of the objections I have to some competitors. I have no interest in stepping into a competition with someone who is actually willing to purposely hurt me for the sake of a win, and there are folks who are willing to do that (in any sport). My self-defense training is all about preventing those injuries, both in training and in an actual attack.

Depends what your context is. You may for example need to engage in some risk to mitigate a greater risk. So if you were training for a life or death street attack. You may need to risk an injury in a safer environment to gain skills that will protect you in a more dangerous one.

If your context isnt fighting. Then you would train accordingly. Like I do pretty much. I dont take that extra step to become better because the cost of being better is too great.

I like pizza and sleep ins so I dont fight.

 

[Juany118]

And now you may recall one of the objections I have to some competitors. I have no interest in stepping into a competition with someone who is actually willing to purposely hurt me for the sake of a win, and there are folks who are willing to do that (in any sport). My self-defense training is all about preventing those injuries, both in training and in an actual attack.

I don't even know if I would put it that way. The two are completely different mindsets. The person who trained as a warrior who walks into a competition will look like the guy who is willing to purposefully hurt another for the sake of a mere win bit in reality he was simply fighting because fighting (vs competing) is what he knows. It's why the only time I will compete (if I want to) will be in Full Contact Short Weapon Free Fighting at tournaments like Kuo Shu. The competitors have helmets and the weapons are padded (so they hurt but usually don't break anything) because when I am fighting, vs training, I really only have one speed. I can "disconnect" a little a school because I am friends with everybody there but in a competition with strangers? I don't have that connection so I just act.

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[Gerry Seymour]

gotcha.

Ok spending part of your time training a different skill set does not take away from your understanding of martial arts. It enhances is.

Training one skill set and then not being able to mentally or physically shift or adapt to a new environment does take away from your understanding of martial arts.

I believe you need to approach martial arts with an open mind to really gain from it. rather than be fixed in place conceptually.

I never said it took away from the understanding. But when approaching training with a limited calendar (most people I've trained with), you allocate your hours where they have the highest impact toward your objective. If I spend considerable training time learning to react properly for competition (to remove the stutter movements), then that's time I'm not actually preparing for the full range of self-defense options. It's a choice, and there are pro's and con's on both sides of the choice. The better fitted a given art is to the competition in question (in this case, MMA), the easier the choice likely would be. If the art contains a fair amount of stuff that's inappropriate or otherwise ill-suited to the competition, then it gets harder and harder to justify training to that competition while training that art.