So what's a better "test" for martial arts other than MMA?

[Ironbear24]

@Ironbear24 if your dislike was my comment about performance art I was talking, mainly, about certain Kung Fu schools I know of. Some of them spend a lot of time training people on various strikes that require serious building up of the muscle, bone and ligaments. As an example...

Go to the 45 second mark and you will see what I mean. My Sifu's Master did that toughening for bil sau. He can thrust his fingers into his head repeatedly and you will hear an audible "thunk" with each impact from across the room. I just started doing similar training for bil sau and phoenix eye fist but am only up to a canvas bag full of rice. Thing is how many people do that kind of training if it is not "required"?

As such some schools, or students in the schools chose to train mainly for things like this.

Which are choreographed and this

Its not to say they can't use it for self defense, only that they have a different focus in training and/or study than a school and student teaching with a focus on self-defense/combat.

PS, the bottom two videos are from Kuo Shu, if you live on the east coast it's worth the trip to Maryland for the weekend.

Kata and bunkai are methods of training. I doubt that is all they do but hey, if they are then that's their choice. Me personally I think martial arts should focus on fighting above all else but everyone has different goals. Even the kata I do has fighting application being the #1 goal.

 

[Juany118]

Kata and bunkai are methods of training. I doubt that is all they do but hey, if they are then that's their choice. Me personally I think martial arts should focus on fighting above all else but everyone has different goals. Even the kata I do has fighting application being the #1 goal.

Oh I get that and I train for the same reason, I am just acknowledging that not all TMA students train for "real" fighting or think they are but are being trained in such a way where they really develop the skills to do so via focusing on the more practical methods, training against other styles and adequate pressure testing. I think this is one of the reasons TMAs sometimes get a bad rap.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Sparring flat knacker changes the game in that you cant react as much as you need to preempt. Someone puts a rush on you and you have eaten four shots before you can get a simple defence like hands up. Let alone a complicated one.

Supprise adds even more to that reaction time.

This is one of the usable differences between street and sport.

So here is a takedown that does not work. One handed arms free. you can do anything and everything to defend it.

Exept it was done quickly.

This kind of gells with my experiences. Where i have seen guys dumped and done little more than flail in the 2 seconds it takes to gain a dominant position.

Now imagine that was a knife. the police officer is at risk for 2 seconds. And then at less risk.

If I grab the arm I may be at risk for 3 seconds which is more time for me to get stabbed.

Now there are of course circumstances where one works and one doesn't. But those who suggest that one always works and one doesn't do not understand the mechanics of real world fighting.

This is one way of testing the grounding someone has in real world fighting.

That's what I thought you were getting at. I'd say it's not so much a matter of speed as it is of timing. If you can attack pre-emptively someone who isn't yet in full fight mode or who isn't aware of you, then you have a huge advantage, especially if you get to start at close range. (This is why Llap Goch is the deadliest of the martial arts.) This option is more likely to be available for people in certain professions (bouncer, LEO, criminal) than it is for the average civilian in a self-defense situation.

This does raise a relevant point for the original question. If pre-emptive attacks/sucker punches are the preferred tactic for the smart fighter, how do you test that in a martial arts context? MMA doesn't work, because the participants already know they are in a fight when they step into the cage.

 

[Juany118]

That's what I thought you were getting at. I'd say it's not so much a matter of speed as it is of timing. If you can attack pre-emptively someone who isn't yet in full fight mode or who isn't aware of you, then you have a huge advantage, especially if you get to start at close range. (This is why Llap Goch is the deadliest of the martial arts.) This option is more likely to be available for people in certain professions (bouncer, LEO, criminal) than it is for the average civilian in a self-defense situation.

This does raise a relevant point for the original question. If pre-emptive attacks/sucker punches are the preferred tactic for the smart fighter, how do you test that in a martial arts context? MMA doesn't work, because the participants already know they are in a fight when they step into the cage.

Llap Goch lol

The only way I can think is to a have solid scenario training worked into the curriculum. Thing is to really work you would need to have scenarios where no attack gets launched. Even then though it would be only an approximation because if you know you are in a training scenario you know you are likely to be attacked and so you are hyper vigilant out of the gate.

 

[drop bear]

That's what I thought you were getting at. I'd say it's not so much a matter of speed as it is of timing. If you can attack pre-emptively someone who isn't yet in full fight mode or who isn't aware of you, then you have a huge advantage, especially if you get to start at close range. (This is why Llap Goch is the deadliest of the martial arts.) This option is more likely to be available for people in certain professions (bouncer, LEO, criminal) than it is for the average civilian in a self-defense situation.

This does raise a relevant point for the original question. If pre-emptive attacks/sucker punches are the preferred tactic for the smart fighter, how do you test that in a martial arts context? MMA doesn't work, because the participants already know they are in a fight when they step into the cage.

It is less obvious in a cage. But if you spar a fast good guy at high speed. The effect is still there. This is why you dont fight in the pocket unless you have a steel jaw. The counter mesures are the same. You create distance and time.

If you are suggesting there is a test for defending from a position you can be sucker punched.
You messed up a long time ago.

Try this with a wrestler. wonder why you can get taken down from across the room Whith a shot that is technically too far away.

It happens to me boxing but that is less pleasant.


Otherwise there are tricks to setting your range so you dont get popped.

And tricks so you do.

Mechanically You are not that good at judging distance. So a fist moving in a straight line coming towards you is hard to pick up on. So you use those lessons learned in sparring and apply them to self defence.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you enter into a premis that they will fixate on the knife. Then you have to operate on concepts that make them fixate on that knife.

How do you go about making that strategy work?

Why would I need to operate on concepts that make them fixate on the knife? I just work with techniques that will work if they fixate on the knife.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think another principle is to NOT panic. You can get stabbed a couple times, even slashed a number of times and remain alive a function, especially when faced with what you will typically face when you are dealing with the most common knife on the street, the pocket folder. There are exceptions of course, if major blood vessels get ruptured you can bleed out quite quickly, but chances are in a real fight with your average folder you may not even be initially aware you were stabbed and/or cut until you see the blood so unless one of those major blood vessels or organs is hit keep on fighting, because you can for a time.

Good point. I work hard to teach students they are never allowed to stop simply because something didn't work. They have to find a finish, unless their "attacker" finishes them completely. We do what we can to add in some of the visual and auditory cues that will be present (not a private enough location to actually do what I'd like with yelling during "attacks"), so they are less of a difference. They are small things, but they help reduce the likelihood of a panic reaction by a small percentage. It's all about the percentages.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Llap Goch lol

The only way I can think is to a have solid scenario training worked into the curriculum. Thing is to really work you would need to have scenarios where no attack gets launched. Even then though it would be only an approximation because if you know you are in a training scenario you know you are likely to be attacked and so you are hyper vigilant out of the gate.

Yeah, this is tough to integrate. We have to be cognizant of the legal risk (if you strike pre-emptively, witness accounts can place you as the "attacker"). We have a few techniques that work well specifically for pre-emptive responses. They get us out of the main line of attack and give us a shot at early control.

 

[Buka]

This does raise a relevant point for the original question. If pre-emptive attacks/sucker punches are the preferred tactic for the smart fighter, how do you test that in a martial arts context? MMA doesn't work, because the participants already know they are in a fight when they step into the cage.

I'm not sure this applies to the part of your post I quoted, But it reminded me of something we used to do.

We used to sometimes do "The Whatever Drill". Everyone is paired off, out of stance, facing each other. You're chatting with your partner, music is on, everything is chill. At any given time, either you or your partner slaps the other across the face. How hard depends on the participants. The person getting slapped immediately rushes and shoves saying "whatever" as he does so.

I'm not saying a slap is anything like a punch, but often a sucker punch is more a matter of shock and surprise than of actual movement stopping injury. "The utterance of "whatever" is a matter of fostering attitude and learning to engage when surprised.

Since there is no set order of who slaps, sometimes a slap is blocked or evaded, and that's okay to. Sometimes the order is set, and each takes turns throwing the slap, but it's done when they want, not on a count.

I know "a shove" isn't what you necessarily want to counter a sucker shot with (but it might be) but it's less injurious in training than a hard counter and it's meant to learn to just move in.
(No gloves involved, no headgear. Sometimes there were really hard slaps, though. You know how black belts can get)

Lot of ways to do the drill. Kind of fun, too. Worked pretty good for us.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

It is less obvious in a cage. But if you spar a fast good guy at high speed. The effect is still there. This is why you dont fight in the pocket unless you have a steel jaw. The counter mesures are the same. You create distance and time.

...

Try this with a wrestler. wonder why you can get taken down from across the room Whith a shot that is technically too far away.

That's something different, though. That's actual speed rather than pre-emptively hitting someone who isn't yet in fight mode. In the case of the wrestler it's also a matter of a mismatch in the relevant skill set. You don't see too many successful shots from out of range in the UFC any more because now all the fighters at that level have solid takedown defense.

If you are suggesting there is a test for defending from a position you can be sucker punched.
You messed up a long time ago.

I'm not talking about defending against the sucker punch (although that's a topic in itself). I'm talking about using it. You're advocating for a certain tactic versus a knife wielder based on the idea that you get to pre-emptively hit him before he is actually trying to stab you. You posted a video of a cop taking down a suspect with a pre-emptive attack before the suspect was prepared for a physical confrontation. Neither of these scenarios would play out that way in competition. If we grant that this is an advantageous approach to take, what is the best test for how well and individual or a martial system has developed those tactics? Is there one, aside from the personal experiences of individuals in professions which offer the opportunity for these sorts of pre-emptive tactics?

 

[drop bear]

That's something different, though. That's actual speed rather than pre-emptively hitting someone who isn't yet in fight mode. In the case of the wrestler it's also a matter of a mismatch in the relevant skill set. You don't see too many successful shots from out of range in the UFC any more because now all the fighters at that level have solid takedown defense.

Sort of my point though. You have to process a lot of information in a short time. And can get ambushed mid fight if you are not preemptively defending.

 

[drop bear]

m not talking about defending against the sucker punch (although that's a topic in itself). I'm talking about using it. You're advocating for a certain tactic versus a knife wielder based on the idea that you get to pre-emptively hit him before he is actually trying to stab you. You posted a video of a cop taking down a suspect with a pre-emptive attack before the suspect was prepared for a physical confrontation. Neither of these scenarios would play out that way in competition. If we grant that this is an advantageous approach to take, what is the best test for how well and individual or a martial system has developed those tactics? Is there one, aside from the personal experiences of individuals in professions which offer the opportunity for these sorts of pre-emptive tactics?

Put rushes on people when they dont expect it. dont do it all the time.

I mean you could kato your training partners but I am not sure how safe that would be.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I mean you could kato your training partners but I am not sure how safe that would be.

C'mon, what could possibly go wrong?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Put rushes on people when they dont expect it. dont do it all the time.

I mean you could kato your training partners but I am not sure how safe that would be.

Yeah, I've been working on adding some surprise attacks during training. It's dicey, and so far I'm the only one allowed to deliver the surprise. It's not a great test, but it's certainly better than not having a training tool to evaluate responses to surprise contact.

 

[drop bear]

C'mon, what could possibly go wrong?

We used to do that quite a bit at a work site at one point. Mate of mine tried to ambush another in a construction site. Almost ate a steel pole.

 

[Buka]

The AAA Foundation did a study I found, just last year. There is a distinction to be made between aggressive driving and road rage incidents. I think that the latter is a result of the former. But the picture that emerges is that most people denounce aggressive driving in others, but drive aggressively themselves. They invite reciprocal violence through their behaviors, and often feel empowered to retaliate. In other words, the biggest difference between a dangerously aggressive driver and a "mugger" is in the perception that one is a criminal and the other isn't. But that has no bearing on the relative danger of one or the other. The more serious threat to one's personal safety is not the mugger. It's the otherwise great guy who drives like a maniac and uses his car as a weapon. (Interesting note, I saw on an infographic that guys driving blue BMWs are the most likely to engage in aggressive driving and road rage... that seems pretty specific.. not sure if it's true, but it was funny).

They say that aggressive driving is a factor in over half of all traffic fatalities (lower than the NHTSA number of over 65%, but still very high). They also say that over 90% of drivers believe that aggressive driving and road rage are a "somewhat" or "very serious" threat to their personal safety.

Steve, been meaning to post this, just had to find your old post first.

Last Saturday night, working the airport, I get a call from the boss. He's usually inside but happened to be curbside talking to someone. Apparently two guys in a car gave a really hard time to one of the traffic security guys. Then started screaming in a threatening manner, saying they would be back. (We step in when the security guys have a problem.)

I ask the boss for a description of the vehicle. He says, "Blue BMW, newer model." I thought to myself - "Steve just mentioned this. How incredibly odd." Just a coincidence, I'm sure.(?) But I thought it just nuts.

They never did come back. But I sure have my eye peeled for them if they do.

 

[Juany118]

C'mon, what could possibly go wrong?

When I see this I wonder if that of Jackie's stuff is funnier physical comedy...

 

[drop bear]

Steve, been meaning to post this, just had to find your old post first.

Last Saturday night, working the airport, I get a call from the boss. He's usually inside but happened to be curbside talking to someone. Apparently two guys in a car gave a really hard time to one of the traffic security guys. Then started screaming in a threatening manner, saying they would be back. (We step in when the security guys have a problem.)

I ask the boss for a description of the vehicle. He says, "Blue BMW, newer model." I thought to myself - "Steve just mentioned this. How incredibly odd." Just a coincidence, I'm sure.(?) But I thought it just nuts.

They never did come back. But I sure have my eye peeled for them if they do.

Yeah. Quite often criminals are easier to deal with because at least they know they are doing the wrong thing.

The angry assault crowd are all really good guys when they are not drunk or upset about something.