More mma bashing....

[Hanzou]

Great points. If I understand hanzou's position correctly, it's not karate he has concerns with. It's the way in which the karate is trained. Doesn't Machida train karate differently than many other people?

Exactly.

And yeah, Machida's style of Karate is heavily influenced by his training in other styles. The idea that he's some sort of Karate purist is nonsense. He may market himself that way, but its not the whole picture. You can even see the influences of other styles when he fights.

I have no problem with "Machida Karate". In fact, I view Machida's style as something akin to my personal fighting style, due to our similar MA backgrounds (though I never took sumo).

 

[Drose427]

Great points. If I understand hanzou's position correctly, it's not karate he has concerns with. It's the way in which the karate is trained. Doesn't Machida train karate differently than many other people?

Another question. Do you guys think cross training is material to his success? He is a karateka, but also a bjj black belt and has competed in sumo.


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Right, hanzou had a bad experience. His school walked through things, had poor instruction, etc. Hes been very open about that and theres nothing wrong with his opinion. A good point that Tony made, was that hes wrong in thinking Karate has a standard method. In reality, School A and School B only are alike in that they have forms, Some form of SD, and free sparring. There really arent any standard drills, methods, etc for how Karate is trained. Within multiple schools of the same style, there may be a standard curriculum, but odds are it isnt taught in the same way. In Hanzous defense, nobody can expect him to think any different when his main exposure was at a poor school. Which is why these opinion arguments keep popping up lately

Cross Training has without a doubt helped his grappling and rolling, I was referring to his striking only.

As for training differently, I'm sure he pushes himself far harder. But him and GSP have both been very adamant about still training in forms, Step Sparring, etc at their traditional schools in the same way that Spider Silva still actively throws on the WTF gear and finds time to train it.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Another question. Do you guys think cross training is material to his success? He is a karateka, but also a bjj black belt and has competed in sumo.

It's relevant to his success in MMA in that he's not worried about being taken down. His sumo and wrestling help him with takedown defense and his BJJ means that he can handle himself on the ground. That means he doesn't have to hold back with his striking for fear of takedowns.

If I understand hanzou's position correctly, it's not karate he has concerns with. It's the way in which the karate is trained. Doesn't Machida train karate differently than many other people?

Machida's style of Karate is heavily influenced by his training in other styles. The idea that he's some sort of Karate purist is nonsense. He may market himself that way, but its not the whole picture. You can even see the influences of other styles when he fights.

As for training differently, I'm sure he pushes himself far harder. But him and GSP have both been very adamant about still training in forms, Step Sparring, etc at their traditional schools in the same way

I've watched Machida's "Karate for MMA" instructional DVD, and it's all stuff you could see from any other Shotokan instructor, including forms. I've also watched footage of him training. Once you take out the grappling aspects, it's pretty much what you would expect of a high-level competitive karateka.

I think what Hanzou is identifying (and disliking) as "traditional" martial arts is actually "watered down for the casual consumer" martial arts, i.e. WDFTCCMA. Unfortunately, if you walk into a school claiming to teach TMA, there's statistically very good odds that you will actually be getting WDFTCCMA.

 

[MJS]

The Myth of Pressure Testing How MMA has failed the martial arts.

The blog above is the epitome of what I find wrong with the mentality of a lot of traditional martial artist. I'm not sure why so many decry the value of mma when martial artists should embrace mma. If they think the fighters are good they're welcome to fight or go to an mma gym and prove their skill is superior to mma.

Here are the blogs points:
1) mma is supposed to be a proving ground where all martial arts can test and see who's best.

This may have been the goal of the early ufc matches but it no longer is the case. Mma is a sport and ruleset and the rules vary between organizations.

2) mma sparring is ineffective because it doesn't allow multiple opponents, killing blows or weapons. It isn't realistic enough.

There are some venues that are basically mma with multiple opponents and teams you can find it on YouTube. It's a little ridiculous though. There are also weapons venues arising like sfw and some hema organizations. Do you employ deadly kill shots in your training? Against a resisting opponent in real time? Get real, you're never gonna see public death matches and no one trains this way. Mma is a specialty like boxing or a forms competition it demonstrates skill of the individual under specific settings.

3)tai chi, Silat, xing yi, bagua, and other Kung fu styles are reality based and they prepare you for every scenario.

I think we see the agenda here. The guy is a traditionalist and is obviously biased. The above systems are far from rbsd but can probably be applied with an rbsd mindset as can mma. But I doubt the majority of schools train this way.

4) mma has horribly failed as a means to effectively test the martial arts.

I'm glad the author is a fan of pressure testing but I'd like him to propose how we do test martial arts effectively. Perhaps some kind of thunderdome format?

Do I think mma is the ultimate test for martial arts? No, I don't train or really even watch mma, but it's a solid format to assess striking and grappling in all ranges. Unlike these traditionalists I can concede that everything I do isn't the best but I can and train to do some things very well. these guys need to admit mma builds fighters with good striking and grappling and leave it at that. They are fundamental areas of fighting and self defense and are a strong base to build upon.

MMA is not the ultimate proving ground, despite what some of the fanboys claim. I do feel that they do offer a lot of what other others can benefit from, that being the intensity of training, the contact, resistance, etc. Yeah, I know, everyone trains for different reasons, however, if you're serious about SD, then you need to train hard, you need to be able to take a good hit...basically, you need to put in the blood, sweat and tears.

Now, we also need to keep in mind that just because there are no weapons, no multi man attacks, etc, that their training methods are useless. We should be able to take from them, and apply certain methods to multi man attacks, weapons, etc. Grab a padded stick, or even a rattan one if you choose, gear up as needed, and have at it. Have your training partner, really swing at you, and see what you can do. Trust me, it's one hell of an eye opener, and you'll realize real fast that much of that static stuff, goes right out the window, when someone is really swinging, with the intent to hit you, to follow through and strike again, and again, etc.

At the end of the day, debates like this will rage on and on. Ever since the early UFC days, these debates have gone on. There are pros and cons to all aspects of training. Find what works for you, and put it into play.

 

[Mephisto]

It's relevant to his success in MMA in that he's not worried about being taken down. His sumo and wrestling help him with takedown defense and his BJJ means that he can handle himself on the ground. That means he doesn't have to hold back with his striking for fear of takedowns.







I've watched Machida's "Karate for MMA" instructional DVD, and it's all stuff you could see from any other Shotokan instructor, including forms. I've also watched footage of him training. Once you take out the grappling aspects, it's pretty much what you would expect of a high-level competitive karateka.

I think what Hanzou is identifying (and disliking) as "traditional" martial arts is actually "watered down for the casual consumer" martial arts, i.e. WDFTCCMA. Unfortunately, if you walk into a school claiming to teach TMA, there's statistically very good odds that you will actually be getting WDFTCCMA.

Watered down for the casual customer (Wddtccma ) is a good way to look at it and your mention of statics of finding such a place are spot on imo. I've been on this soap box for a while, what makes a system good or bad is how said system is trained and the ability that the average student develops. Statistically if the majority of schools in a given style are a McDojo (tkd in the US) than that style would not be a good recommendation if your goal is self defense and fighting ability. Does that mean that all tkd is bad? no, it just means it's difficult to find a good school. I've talked to plenty within some of the more questionable systems who reassure me their school is legit only to see the same type of stuff every other school within said system does. The problem is people new to a martial art don't know how to define good and bad. Some people have been in martial arts for years training badly and think they know what's best.

 

[Drose427]

Watered down for the casual customer (Wddtccma ) is a good way to look at it and your mention of statics of finding such a place are spot on imo. I've been on this soap box for a while, what makes a system good or bad is how said system is trained and the ability that the average student develops. Statistically if the majority of schools in a given style are a McDojo (tkd in the US) than that style would not be a good recommendation if your goal is self defense and fighting ability. Does that mean that all tkd is bad? no, it just means it's difficult to find a good school. I've talked to plenty within some of the more questionable systems who reassure me their school is legit only to see the same type of stuff every other school within said system does. The problem is people new to a martial art don't know how to define good and bad. Some people have been in martial arts for years training badly and think they know what's best.

Idk if TKD in the US is a good example of a Mcdojo. The majority of US TKD by far is Kukki TKD, which very rarely claims to be anything other than sport. You cant really judge a system for not being good at something it doesnt really care about.

I believe SD and Step Sparring arent even a part of the Kukkiwons 1st Dan requirement.

World Culture Taekwondo Kukkiwon will make it

Most Kukki schools are focused on WTF style tournaments. I've personally never seen one of these schools claim to be RBSD.

Labelling them a bad school over something they dont do, is like calling a boxing gym gym because their students got taken down and crushed in a barfight. Or saying a gyms wrestling program is crap because their wrestlers lose to boxers.

 

[Mephisto]

Idk if TKD in the US is a good example of a Mcdojo. The majority of US TKD by far is Kukki TKD, which very rarely claims to be anything other than sport. You cant really judge a system for not being good at something it doesnt really care about.

I believe SD and Step Sparring arent even a part of the Kukkiwons 1st Dan requirement.

World Culture Taekwondo Kukkiwon will make it

Most Kukki schools are focused on WTF style tournaments. I've personally never seen one of these schools claim to be RBSD.

Labelling them a bad school over something they dont do, is like calling a boxing gym gym because their students got taken down and crushed in a barfight. Or saying a gyms wrestling program is crap because their wrestlers lose to boxers.

If you've been following the thread you'd see that I'm using "good" and "bad" in relation to self defense and fighting ability. Does someone who goes to a Kukki school looking for self defense and fighting ability get told that kukki is only about point sparring, and that they don't care about self defense? Does that school claim to tech self defense? i don't see a problem with a school that only claims to teach point sparring, but I doubt theyre as up front about what they do as you are.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Idk if TKD in the US is a good example of a Mcdojo. The majority of US TKD by far is Kukki TKD, which very rarely claims to be anything other than sport. You cant really judge a system for not being good at something it doesnt really care about.

Interesting point. I just went and googled a whole bunch of random TKD studios to see what they were advertising as their benefits.

At least half mentioned self-defense, but usually just in passing. Some mentioned sport competition, but that wasn't a huge emphasis either.

The most common claims (and the most emphasized) were that TKD builds confidence, fitness, character, discipline, leadership, etc. It seems to be marketed primarily as a method for physical and mental self-development and as a fun family activity. If that's what they are selling, I guess I'm not going to judge them too harshly for not building great fighters.

 

[Drose427]

If you've been following the thread you'd see that I'm using "good" and "bad" in relation to self defense and fighting ability. Does someone who goes to a Kukki school looking for self defense and fighting ability get told that kukki is only about point sparring, and that they don't care about self defense? Does that school claim to tech self defense? i don't see a problem with a school that only claims to teach point sparring, but I doubt theyre as up front about what they do as you are.

They usually are, considering many schools dont teach any SD anyone watching a class would see that. These schools aren't using RBSD as a marketing tool like many other MA's both good and bad do. It's hard to claim you teach RBSD to someone who observed a class where you focused on forms and sparring.

Obviously, there are instructors who bring in SD stuff and teach it, but its hardly the main marketing point.

Kukki Tae Kwon Do School

What is Taekwondo

World Taekwondo Headquarters

None of these place really talk about it as RSBD, but these are all Olympic Competition focused.

Interesting point. I just went and googled a whole bunch of random TKD studios to see what they were advertising as their benefits.

At least half mentioned self-defense, but usually just in passing. Some mentioned sport competition, but that wasn't a huge emphasis either.

The most common claims (and the most emphasized) were that TKD builds confidence, fitness, character, discipline, leadership, etc. It seems to be marketed primarily as a method for physical and mental self-development and as a fun family activity. If that's what they are selling, I guess I'm not going to judge them too harshly for not building great fighters.

Yeah, TKD is so diverse that you really have to know the focus of a specific school before you can judge or classify it within a certain criteria.

Our school is SD focused. I dont know one adult whos made it to any advanced rank who hasnt had their nose, eye, lip , or ribs busted becuase they just didnt react quick enough, or block properly, etc. I got gib slapped once because I was working with teenage student on takedowns and "didnt resist it" enough. We do these full contact drills every class with free sparring and compete once or twice a year.

On the flipside, schools we've seen at competition who compete 12 or 13 times a year and dont do much SD. WHen I was looking at moving to Denver, the TKD school I looked at was a very family friendly fun school that wasnt very strict. Their kids loved it, but I've been spoiled by our military style class.

My point to Mephisto was that the Kukki schools tend to focus on WTF comps, but TKD as a whole is too many things to really put under one label

 

[Mephisto]

They usually are, considering many schools dont teach any SD anyone watching a class would see that. These schools aren't using RBSD as a marketing tool like many other MA's both good and bad do. It's hard to claim you teach RBSD to someone who observed a class where you focused on forms and sparring.

Obviously, there are instructors who bring in SD stuff and teach it, but its hardly the main marketing point.

Kukki Tae Kwon Do School

What is Taekwondo

World Taekwondo Headquarters

None of these place really talk about it as RSBD, but these are all Olympic Competition focused.



Yeah, TKD is so diverse that you really have to know the focus of a specific school before you can judge or classify it within a certain criteria.

Our school is SD focused. I dont know one adult whos made it to any advanced rank who hasnt had their nose, eye, lip , or ribs busted becuase they just didnt react quick enough, or block properly, etc. I got gib slapped once because I was working with teenage student on takedowns and "didnt resist it" enough. We do these full contact drills every class with free sparring and compete once or twice a year.

On the flipside, schools we've seen at competition who compete 12 or 13 times a year and dont do much SD. WHen I was looking at moving to Denver, the TKD school I looked at was a very family friendly fun school that wasnt very strict. Their kids loved it, but I've been spoiled by our military style class.

My point to Mephisto was that the Kukki schools tend to focus on WTF comps, but TKD as a whole is too many things to really put under one label

For now I'm gonna go ahead and put tkd under one label, and that's that it isn't a good bet for someone looking for self defense and fighting. As mentioned, it's an issue of statics and statistically if you agree that most tkd is kukkikwon/wtf or whatever point sparring, than maybe you'll see my point. I'm sure you train at of the minority of badass tkd schools but they're a rarity. I'm not saying all are bad for self defense but the odds are that you're not gonna find a school of hardened tkd fighters near by.

 

[drop bear]

They usually are, considering many schools dont teach any SD anyone watching a class would see that. These schools aren't using RBSD as a marketing tool like many other MA's both good and bad do. It's hard to claim you teach RBSD to someone who observed a class where you focused on forms and sparring.

You are making it a style thing though. You can teach SD. And still be teaching garbage.

 

[tshadowchaser]

any style/system be it traditional, modern, or MMA can be great or garbage. There are enough schools out there that are legit and way to many that have no clue what they claim to teach but it happens to be the new fad so they "teach" it.
The not so legit schools will claim to teach you the whole gambit of things. The difference may not be recognizably to the average person or even to the martial arts person who has no knowledge of the style.

 

[Transk53]

any style/system be it traditional, modern, or MMA can be great or garbage. There are enough schools out there that are legit and way to many that have no clue what they claim to teach but it happens to be the new fad so they "teach" it.
The not so legit schools will claim to teach you the whole gambit of things. The difference may not be recognizably to the average person or even to the martial arts person who has no knowledge of the style.

Which can be very difficult to the uninitiated. Thing is, how can that be negated, at least to the level where someone can have an inkling if something is not right, before any new class is attempted. Logically I guess that can't be done, but watching a bit of MMA tonight seems that sometimes, too much variety is there rather than the logical blows to end a fight.

 

[Hanzou]

any style/system be it traditional, modern, or MMA can be great or garbage. There are enough schools out there that are legit and way to many that have no clue what they claim to teach but it happens to be the new fad so they "teach" it.

Be that as it may, there aren't any MMA/Bjj schools I'm aware of that would teach you that a sound method to avoid getting grappled is to move around in circles and smack/slap your aggressor away.

 

[drop bear]

any style/system be it traditional, modern, or MMA can be great or garbage. There are enough schools out there that are legit and way to many that have no clue what they claim to teach but it happens to be the new fad so they "teach" it.
The not so legit schools will claim to teach you the whole gambit of things. The difference may not be recognizably to the average person or even to the martial arts person who has no knowledge of the style.

sometimes it is the quality of the instructor and not the style. Especially if we are comparing similar methods

Boxing stylistically should be terrible for sd. But boxers are constantly disproving that.

 

[drop bear]

Be that as it may, there aren't any MMA/Bjj schools I'm aware of that would teach you that a sound method to avoid getting grappled is to move around in circles and smack/slap your aggressor away.

tee hee.

It comes back to street vs sport. If you don't compete/spar/fight. You remove the pressure test.

then any technique is viable.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Idk if TKD in the US is a good example of a Mcdojo. The majority of US TKD by far is Kukki TKD, which very rarely claims to be anything other than sport. You cant really judge a system for not being good at something it doesnt really care about.

I believe SD and Step Sparring arent even a part of the Kukkiwons 1st Dan requirement.

World Culture Taekwondo Kukkiwon will make it

Most Kukki schools are focused on WTF style tournaments. I've personally never seen one of these schools claim to be RBSD.

Labelling them a bad school over something they dont do, is like calling a boxing gym gym because their students got taken down and crushed in a barfight. Or saying a gyms wrestling program is crap because their wrestlers lose to boxers.

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I think they can be labeled a 'bad school' if you are using a moniker that conveys a history of traditional martial arts.
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Yet your explanation is key and constantly gets overlooked in these discussions about how karate, etc. isn't effective in MMA. First there is always the quality issue which you so importantly stress. And frankly, the quality issue could be with the student.
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Secondly and just as important, what's the makeup of the curriculum. This is so critical. To illustrate, do you have 10-year old black-belts sparring with 6-year old white belts for a lot of the class time. I mean this is kickboxing, not traditional karate. This is tai-bo karate or aero-fu. Hey, I'm 9 years old and took the regional in no-touch point fighting. Just look @ my 36-inch trophy....

 

[ShotoNoob]

There are a lot of people in MMA who wil bash TKD and Karates ability to fight even when showed fighters like Machida who is very much a Karate "Purist" in the cage with it being his main striking foundation. Or Spider Silva, Ben Henderson, and Cung Le who all use a lot of WTF TKD style kicks. Or back in the early days of Kickboxing, where point fighters from TSD, Karate, and TKD basically went straight into full contact bouts with boxers and folks from "Harder" styles.

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You make an excellent distinction here about Machida. I have to agree he's not pure Shotokan today in how he fights & trains. Incidentally I am opposed to that...
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But to start, and this is true of Chinzo as well IMO, the Machida's are Shotokan Karate Point-Kumite fighters. That is essentially the base for the style they present in MMA. Posters lump in Machida's sumo, BJJ, Muay Thai, etc, etc. But fundamentally what you see in the Machida's base style is Shotokan.
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Thanks for pointing out that issue.

There are many, many MMA guys out there who train in as many styles as they can and always seem to pick up something they like and feel they can use. When somethings been or is being used regularly in the cage and ring, and someone still denies it they're just stubborn. Some folks are just like that, trying to change their opinion would be pointless.

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Yes, and although this conventional way to train MMA is valid, it only highlights the bias that karate fighters can only succeed in MMA by cutting & pasting a bunch of other styles & tactics. It's patently silly to believe a bully in a street fight never tried to tackle a WWII ERA TKD artist in Korea & the Korean TKD stood still flabbergasted because the attack wasn't a point-fighting kick. But when the UFC came along, suddenly the Original Korean TKD practitioners saw the error of their ways.....

Folks poor experiences, or lack of experience to other styles in some cases, have given them a firm opinion. People here seem to be taking these differing opinions very personal lately hence all the animosity and frustration.
When many of us here use or have used our TMA training in the cage, ring, or in SD...

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That's talking like an instructor. Props.

 

[ShotoNoob]

This is apparently their highlight reel:

Yeah, I'm not seeing alot of pressure here.

And I say this as a non mma guy.

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See MMA for what it is. Full contact/ Submission Fighting Competition. Great for pressure testing.
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What you see in the video is the commercial TMA approach where you don't want your customers heading for the exits in horror as other students are carried out to the ambulance on a stretcher.
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Legitimately, most TMA practitioners in the US are part-time 3-days a week , ways away from wanting to be professional or even pro-am competitors.

 

[Tez3]

What you see in the video is the commercial TMA approach where you don't want your customers heading for the exits in horror as other students are carried out to the ambulance on a stretcher.

Lol, I do applaud that sentence, it's as the kids say... wicked! I quite agree with it though.

We've had students leave on stretchers, last one had a dislocated shoulder, he was as happy as larry though being given gas and air which I don't think is used in the US (?)