So what's a better "test" for martial arts other than MMA?

[Juany118]

i don't think that what I said is contrary to what you are saying. Maybe I don't understand, but what I'm suggesting is that competition is good for pressure testing appropriate techniques and tactics, and that this idea that one can't Scale back training for a non lethal context is bad juju.

Kind of the same thing you're saying. Right?

It can be but that's why I kinda dig say "Dog Brothers" and old school MMA. If your goal is train for 11, because you are either avoiding the fight entirely or going Snake Plisken, then you have to do some noticeable adjustments to your training regime due to the rulesets of most modern competitions. As an example, I used to compete in Fencing competitions in high school and college. The Kali I currently study has some Spanish Sword influence but much of what I train and spar to do (with all the protective gear and padded weapon during the sparring of course) would be completely illegal in Fencing. If I was to go back to fencing I would have to do some major reprogramming.

Since there are ways to pressure test without the reprogramming, while not "sanctioned" competitions why go through the reprogramming to begin with? Especially as it runs the risk of messing with your already established self defense game.

 

[Buka]

I can't fight on stairs.
I don't even go to 11 in a fight.
I kind of like Snake Plissken, though.

 

[JP3]

I can't fight on stairs.
I don't even go to 11 in a fight.
I kind of like Snake Plissken, though.

Anyone can fight on stairs, Buka. Just probably not well. Let the legs go and roll down on the opponent is one way. Try not to be fighting "uphill," as it were.
I know I liked Maggie (Adrienne Barbeau, very nice).
I try to do only 1 thing at 11, and it is not fighting. Fighting gets me up to a 6.

 

[Buka]

Anyone can fight on stairs, Buka. Just probably not well. Let the legs go and roll down on the opponent is one way. Try not to be fighting "uphill," as it were.
I know I liked Maggie (Adrienne Barbeau, very nice).
I try to do only 1 thing at 11, and it is not fighting. Fighting gets me up to a 6.

Not me. There's some things in life some people just can't do, I can't fight on stairs. Trained on them, but, alas to no avail, it's as if I have three left feet.

 

[drop bear]

No need to justify my training to you, but I'll humor you with a few examples:

• Low-light training
• Training in street clothes
• Training outside
• Training without mats
• Defending from the knees
• Defending from a chair
• Training with one arm stuck in obi
• Defending entirely inside a square
• Defending with nothing but feet (no hands, only movement, kicks, etc.)
• Training entirely off-handed
• Training with people from other styles
• Training in other styles

And many more.

A lot of those are specifically leaving out parts of your martial art. If one wrist lock is a core what is defending with only your feet?

 

[drop bear]

Not me. There's some things in life some people just can't do, I can't fight on stairs. Trained on them, but, alas to no avail, it's as if I have three left feet.

I fight on stairs. because stupid people think that is a cool thing to have right at the point where a bouncer denies people entry.

 

[drop bear]

He wins the competition because breaking the arm is useful or he wins the argument with you on this forum?

He wins the competition which is usefull because you dont get punched in the face any longer.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah training to fit into the rules from the jump is something I have no problem with. A full featured MA with competition rules can still be effective. However training without those rules and then trying to adapt to them I think can be problematic as it violates, imo, the "train like you fight" method. Think of just normal muscle memory. As an example, in Wing Chun we have a hand technique used to block low attacks or pin a hand temporarily to create an opening called gum sau. It should just be a cupping hand, not a grab. I had a problem though, since I had spent so many years training to grab the wrist, to transition either into a lock or take down, if I had a drill where I was supposed to perform a gum sau, I either would instinctively lap sau (grab) or stutter as I caught myself mid grab. I think, if I wanted to go into some sort of professional competition, that I would have to seriously modify my training regime in order to have the muscle memory that conformed to the new rule set.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

The training by rote issue.

sorry been misspelling that.

 

[drop bear]

Anyone can fight on stairs, Buka. Just probably not well. Let the legs go and roll down on the opponent is one way. Try not to be fighting "uphill," as it were.
I know I liked Maggie (Adrienne Barbeau, very nice).
I try to do only 1 thing at 11, and it is not fighting. Fighting gets me up to a 6.

I havent seen anybody winning a fight get to stairs and then been outclassed by some sort of environmental expert.

Have seen people fall down them which will maees a guy up. But I am putting that down to miss adventure.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

A heel hook represents a real risk of

I think because it will dramatically improve your facility with the techniques you do use and also help with many intangibles.

Guys who compete in Bjj often also compete in other rule sets, such as grappling, boxing and Muay Thai. And within grappling, there are many varying rule sets. You don't have to open up the full can of whupass every time. But you should be able to keep your brain engaged and show some critical thinking and sound decision making, even under pressure.

Mma guys don't find themselves punching guys in an IBJJF competition any more than guys just go nuts and take a guy down in a boxing match.

I genuinely question the entire presumption that muscle memory to the point where you crank to 11 in an encounter is good training. Maybe if you live on death planet five or are named snake plisken...

I never said the muscle memory would cause me to crank to 11. It just leads me to the techniques I train and use the most, and those include some which are not useful for competition. Again, those who compete in various competitions generally train for those competitions. Competing in them without specifically training for them will cost the competitor a level of effectiveness.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

i don't think that what I said is contrary to what you are saying. Maybe I don't understand, but what I'm suggesting is that competition is good for pressure testing appropriate techniques and tactics, and that this idea that one can't Scale back training for a non lethal context is bad juju.

Kind of the same thing you're saying. Right?

Again, I never said I couldn't scale back. What I said was that techniques that don't have a "scale back" to them become useless in that context, and if those are primary techniques, you have to consciously avoid them unless you train for the competition enough to remove them automatically.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Anyone can fight on stairs, Buka. Just probably not well. Let the legs go and roll down on the opponent is one way. Try not to be fighting "uphill," as it were.
I know I liked Maggie (Adrienne Barbeau, very nice).
I try to do only 1 thing at 11, and it is not fighting. Fighting gets me up to a 6.

I'd personally prefer to be fighting uphill. Far more targets, and easier to take the other guy down when his legs are so handy.

 

[drop bear]

From reading the previous posts of @gpseymour I believe his method of teaching, and training, self defense is that you don't go hands on unless the situation is cranked to 11.

It's similar to my situation. I need to keep techniques in boxes due to the UoF continuum. Now I don't necessarily have the opportunity to just walk away (which many typical self defense scenarios allow for) but as an example if I face "just" passive resistance I can only justify soft empty hand techniques. If the situation rises to the level where I can justify full on striking or my baton then the situation is 11. So when I train my "hard" control techniques, striking and stick work, I practice like it is 11.

How do I explain this. They are not really boxes but ideas.

You can fight a guy without going mental on them. If you train for what is presence of mind during a fight rather than just reacting.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

A lot of those are specifically leaving out parts of your martial art. If one wrist lock is a core what is defending with only your feet?

Yes, but all of those are still training for self-defense - developing specific parts of what we do. And in those training exercises, I expect a bit of stutter-movement along the way. Since it's not a competition, there's no downside. For instance, when I started practicing with one or both hands tucked into my obi to keep them out of the situation, I would often find those hands trying to reach up and fight - that's the reason for them being tucked in. After a bit of training, I was able to keep them out of the fight fairly consistently without the obi, which made it easier to use them separately when I needed to.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I havent seen anybody winning a fight get to stairs and then been outclassed by some sort of environmental expert.

Have seen people fall down them which will maees a guy up. But I am putting that down to miss adventure.

I'd bet that if you have two equally skilled fighters, and only one of them has trained extensively on stairs, that's the guy who wins a fight on stairs.

 

[drop bear]

I'd bet that if you have two equally skilled fighters, and only one of them has trained extensively on stairs, that's the guy who wins a fight on stairs.

And I bet the better fighter will generally win regardless as to what environment you put them.

 

[drop bear]

Yes, but all of those are still training for self-defense - developing specific parts of what we do. And in those training exercises, I expect a bit of stutter-movement along the way. Since it's not a competition, there's no downside. For instance, when I started practicing with one or both hands tucked into my obi to keep them out of the situation, I would often find those hands trying to reach up and fight - that's the reason for them being tucked in. After a bit of training, I was able to keep them out of the fight fairly consistently without the obi, which made it easier to use them separately when I needed to.

Same method as I am sugesting. Same result. Which is a better understanding of your martial arts.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And I bet the better fighter will generally win regardless as to what environment you put them.

No argument there. It would take a rather drastic difference in environment to offset an advantage in skill and preparation.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Same method as I am sugesting. Same result. Which is a better understanding of your martial arts.

Except that you seem to be suggesting that competition is the only path. My point is that there are other methods that don't have the costs presented by competition. For those of us not otherwise inclined to competition, the other ways are a better fit.

 

[Kickboxer101]

Except that you seem to be suggesting that competition is the only path. My point is that there are other methods that don't have the costs presented by competition. For those of us not otherwise inclined to competition, the other ways are a better fit.

Yeah I mean competition is risky I mean I've started looking round and I think im going to stop competing because its just to damm risky. A boxer who lost a decision in a fight I watched on TV is now in a coma and has brain damage, I saw on the news about a guy who died in his first amateur fight. I've been lucky when I competed I haven't taken to many shots but competing is just so risky and before I didn't really appreciate that fact but now I'm training now kenpo I honestly am enjoying that more than I have done competing. I still love kickboxing and I will still train it for the workout and the fact you do learn a lot about your punches and kicks but some people just don't want to put themselves in that position where they can get hurt badly or even die