More mma bashing....

[K-man]

I found a few more vids from the author in the article;

Did you know you can stop a grappler by walking around in a circle and pushing the big meanie-head away with your palms?

Yeah, me neither.

So what is the problem? If you listened to what Clear explained the training drill makes sense. The Bagua I have seen was totally explosive as taught by Erle Montaigue but soft training is still part of it. This video has nothing to do with stopping a grappler.

 

[Hanzou]

So what is the problem? If you listened to what Clear explained the training drill makes sense. The Bagua I have seen was totally explosive as taught by Erle Montaigue but soft training is still part of it. This video has nothing to do with stopping a grappler.

So a video called sparring against grapplers has nothing to do with stopping a grappler?

If you really want to pressure test this, try doing any of that against a person actually skilled in grappling.

 

[Transk53]

So a video called sparring against grapplers has nothing to do with stopping a grappler?

If you really want to pressure test this, try doing any of that against a person actually skilled in grappling.

Like you?

 

[Hanzou]

Like you?

Sure, if a purple belt is all you can find. I think a black belt in Bjj, Sambo, or Judo, or someone who excels at wrestling would be better choices however.

 

[Transk53]

Sure, if a purple belt is all you can find. I think a black belt in Bjj, Sambo, or Judo, or someone who excels at wrestling would be better choices however.

Just wondering. You seemed so certain before?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

So what is the problem? If you listened to what Clear explained the training drill makes sense. The Bagua I have seen was totally explosive as taught by Erle Montaigue but soft training is still part of it. This video has nothing to do with stopping a grappler.

I can see what Mr. Clear is trying to do with the exercise and it has some potential validity, but there are some problems.

1) He really shouldn't call it sparring, because it isn't. It's a semi-free form training drill, but not sparring.
2) The "attacker" is not moving either like a trained grappler or like a realistic untrained fighter.
3) As he kept trying to correct, his students kept trying to speed up to get out of trouble. This is a natural instinct for most students when doing this sort of slow-motion free form exercise and it's really hard to avoid. I think practitioners who have experience with full-speed sparring actually have an easier time with this because they are more likely to understand the realistic rhythms of a fight.

I can actually see some use for this exercise for a skilled grappler looking to develop good habits for moving through a crowded melee and trying to get to safety without engaging in a clinch or focusing on a single opponent. I do think that both the practitioners in the attacking and defending roles need to learn some at least some grappling basics before the exercise will be that effective.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

That is because you don't know the first thing about TMA.

Oh yes I do. The majority of my training was in TMA styles

So far that has not been reflected in your posts.

In fairness, Hanzou's time spent training in Shotokan is probably pretty typical of what many people experience in schools which self-identify as "Traditional Martial Arts."

You could argue that his school wasn't really TMA, but that's hard to justify, given that there is no universally accepted definition of what "TMA" actually is. As far as I'm concerned, it's primarily a marketing term used by a variety of arts and schools which are very different from each other.

Of course, Hanzou's mistake is thinking that every school which uses the marketing term has the same sort of training - even within the same style. Lyoto Machida should be an instructive example for a MMA fan who thinks Shotokan doesn't teach effective fighting skills.

 

[Grenadier]

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[drop bear]

I can see what Mr. Clear is trying to do with the exercise and it has some potential validity, but there are some problems.

1) He really shouldn't call it sparring, because it isn't. It's a semi-free form training drill, but not sparring.
2) The "attacker" is not moving either like a trained grappler or like a realistic untrained fighter.
3) As he kept trying to correct, his students kept trying to speed up to get out of trouble. This is a natural instinct for most students when doing this sort of slow-motion free form exercise and it's really hard to avoid. I think practitioners who have experience with full-speed sparring actually have an easier time with this because they are more likely to understand the realistic rhythms of a fight.

I can actually see some use for this exercise for a skilled grappler looking to develop good habits for moving through a crowded melee and trying to get to safety without engaging in a clinch or focusing on a single opponent. I do think that both the practitioners in the attacking and defending roles need to learn some at least some grappling basics before the exercise will be that effective.

I cant watch the video yet. How exactly do you move through a crowded melee without getting caught up?

And inherently my issue with multiple sparring. The odds are so much in favor of the multiples as to render it basically pointless. Except to teach that a couple of guys can generally drag down a single guy.

 

[Hanzou]

Just wondering. You seemed so certain before?

Certain of what? My skill level?

My point is only that if you want to pressure test what you do, get the best. In grappling terms those would be the people I mentioned.

 

[Hanzou]

I cant watch the video yet.
.

Get ready for a good chuckle.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Machida has been successful for much the same reasons that other top fighters have been successful. He's in fantastic shape, he's rounded out his striking game with high-level grappling (BJJ & sumo), and he does the right kind of sparring (continuous striking + grappling sparring with contact with high level partners). The fact that his striking base is in karate rather than in boxing or muay thai is less important than how he trains.

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<<Completely DISAGREE with your final sentence>>. The mantra that Machida has rounded his Shotokan with MMA add-on's aren't what have made him successful for the most part. What has made him successful for the most part is his Shotokan based kumite style.
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Don't go haywire on me before I complement you on your personal BJJ accomplishments. Moreover, Machida's grappling training, especially BJJ is well suited for MMA and can be adapted for self defense as well. I think the Gracie's really evolved the jujitsu arts to a more practical system for sport (or self defense), though I have tons of respect for what I know about Jujitsu.
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Quite frankly, I think Machida now practices exactly the WRONG kind of striking. Oh, sure, it's MMA convention to spar as you say (continuous striking...with high level partners). This is the 'sport fighting' approach I have complained about as being taken for gospel.
The traditional methods of kumite training particularly IPPON KUMITE as far more valuable for learning dynamic striking.
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Now don't take me too literal and QUOTE ME as saying that the kind of sparring you are talking about can't produce good or even great strikers. Note in my earlier posts I related about the two Golden Glove-skilled boxer types @ my dojo. Remember how the Golden Glove Protege basically tuned me into punching bag @ the outset of our sparring session? There are very capable sport karate fighters also who do a lot of athletic-type & speed exercises who become very good. And in MMA I can't but help but flash to RR, with her very decisive TKO's.
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P.S. The Frog parables over @ "State of Mind" T, I'm starting to warm up to them, thought I'd never pay attention to children's parables--but you know--they're growing on me....

 

[ShotoNoob]

Royce was "unbeatable" in the beginning of the UFC because he had a lifetime of training in a specialized area of combat, he had experience in challenge matches against typical stand-up strikers, and most of his opponents had no idea how to fight on the ground and little or no experience in style vs style match-ups.

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Royce Gracie couldn't touch a bona-fide traditional karate striker any day. Matt Hughes sailed through Royce Gracie's guard like butter & clocked him. Hughes only strike was a demo of how easy it really was. That's because Hughes was only listening to himself. What's true is I wouldn't want a competent BJJ artist to get me on the ground--that I'll grant you BIG TIME.

By the time of his match with Hughes, the secrets of BJJ were out. Hughes had a good understanding of BJJ as well as being a more well-rounded grappler and martial artist. He was younger, stronger, and had more fight experience. Royce had none of the advantages that he had in his earlier career.

RG had no advantages? How about experience. How about track record? What about the goobs & goobs & goobs of muscle memory all the sport trainers rave above? How about the much vaunted Gracie "fearlessness?" How about his increased work on karate sparring which he touted?
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That MMA-speak stuff about 'secrets being out,' you act like grappling arts didn't exist until the Gracie Revolution. Come on. I asked my 1st Sensei very early on on how to defend / defeat a takedown attack--he demonstrated a simple move. Yep, the grappler really exposes himself coming in for a takedown--against the the mentally-adept striker....

Greg Jackson is a top MMA coach. I'm not sure what he has to do with Bruce Lee.

Frog & turtle.
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SUMMARY:
Frog & turtle aside, I really enjoyed your post, including the original one I read @ another thread. I'm sure you'rE getting some good results from your approach. That's why even the conventional MMA makes such a good testing ground for traditional karateka, IMHO. Hey, I think perhaps the best example of that for my particular perspective were BOTH the Shogun Rua bouts with Machida, where in UFC 113 Rua took Machida right out.... a Round 1 finish. Sort of the Muay Thai vs. Karate Base style match up.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Royce Gracie couldn't touch a bona-fide traditional karate striker any day

I suppose you will argue that Minoki Ichihara and Gerard Gordeau are not bona-fide karateka? Or just not "traditional" according to your particular definition of "traditional."

RG had no advantages? How about experience. How about track record? What about the goobs & goobs & goobs of muscle memory all the sport trainers rave above? How about the much vaunted Gracie "fearlessness?" How about his increased work on karate sparring which he touted?

Hughes had more fight experience and a better track record. "Muscle memory" is a misnomer, but regardless Royce had no advantage over Hughes in that department either. Royce isn't lacking in courage, but neither is Hughes. Royce might have worked on his striking, but he still wasn't in Matt Hughes class as far as that goes.

 

[ShotoNoob]

I suppose you will argue that Minoki Ichihara and Gerard Gordeau are not bona-fide karateka? Or just not "traditional" according to your particular definition of "traditional."

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It's not the big-name recognition, it's how they fought.

Hughes had more fight experience and a better track record. "Muscle memory" is a misnomer, but regardless Royce had no advantage over Hughes in that department either. Royce isn't lacking in courage, but neither is Hughes. Royce might have worked on his striking, but he still wasn't in Matt Hughes class as far as that goes.

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On MH vs. RC. I completely agree with your overall assessment of relative weight in skill. Which completely begs the question of why the apparently well-renowned karateka you cited did so poorly I presume. Sounds like despite their apparently distinguished track records, they couldn't make simple principled adjustments. I stand corrected on the muscle memory view.
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I surmise that the gentleman you cited, train & fight according to the regimen you believe in, as opposed to what I believe in. That would explain the results, empirically that is...

 

[ShotoNoob]

I suppose you will argue that...Gerard Gordeau are not bona-fide karateka? Or just not "traditional" according to your particular definition of "traditional."

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Looked up Gordeau. Champion Kyo competitor. UFC 1. Defeated Teila Tuli by round kick to head & follow on punch to head. Defeated Kevin Rosier, with low round kicks, later hand strikes to head.
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IMHO, neither Tuli or Rosier were TMA. Tuli could not even stay on his feet in the initial exchange with Gordeau who was obviously tough as nails. Rosier, another mountain-sized presence, in my estimation, won his record by being so physically overpowering in size with kickboxing technique added. Against a tactical karate fighter re Gordeau, Rosier way outclassed analogous to Hughes vs. Gracie on overall effectiveness.
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Gracie-Gordeau bout, Gordeau fighting posture way too reserved. On Gracie's initial takedown attempt, two patently clear traditional karate techniques would have stopped Gracie dead. The objective is you have to adjust as your opponent changes. Gordeau basically had no traditional karate response, including "mental clarity," against Gracie's take-down 101. Puzzling....
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So much for referencing "big names," be it Gordeau or Greg Jackson. Incidentally, I think Jon Jones training under Greg Jackson has greatly enhanced Jones talents & tactical ability. But I give more credit to Jones than Jackson.

 

[Danny T]

So a video called sparring against grapplers has nothing to do with stopping a grappler?

If you really want to pressure test this, try doing any of that against a person actually skilled in grappling.

Get ready for a good chuckle.

First the video is named 'against grapples' not grapplers and probably is vs someone attempting to grab the arms, hands as shown.

It is also a video describing the principles and concepts for the drill much like one would get when first learning about hand fighting in wrestling and BJJ. It isn't presented the same but the principles are there. Didn't see any 'pressure' testing in the video either only a bit for a beginner to grasp the concept to drill it. Kinda like doing a drill to rep out the movement of doing a..., uh spinning armbar from mount or any other drill to develop the movement/s and positions. Haven't you also done slow compliant drills to learn and to get reps for a particular submission or to work basic transition without doing so with pressure? Don't your instructors do demos with a compliant partner so everyone is able to see and learn the material or all the presentations are done at speed with a partner applying pressure defending or countering the instructor?

 

[Hanzou]

First the video is named 'against grapples' not grapplers and probably is vs someone attempting to grab the arms, hands as shown.

Also the legs, as a student attempted to do so in a bizarre fashion, and was able to get shrugged off by the other guy prancing around in a circle.

It is also a video describing the principles and concepts for the drill much like one would get when first learning about hand fighting in wrestling and BJJ. It isn't presented the same but the principles are there. Didn't see any 'pressure' testing in the video either only a bit for a beginner to grasp the concept to drill it. Kinda like doing a drill to rep out the movement of doing a..., uh spinning armbar from mount or any other drill to develop the movement/s and positions. Haven't you also done slow compliant drills to learn and to get reps for a particular submission or to work basic transition without doing so with pressure? Don't your instructors do demos with a compliant partner so everyone is able to see and learn the material or all the presentations are done at speed with a partner applying pressure defending or countering the instructor?

That's all well and good, but shouldn't you actually be practicing "grapples" in a semi-realistic fashion? In other words, practicing against what someone would actually do when they grapple with you?

Hence why I said training with an actual grappler would be helpful, not assuming that everyone trying to control you is going to just try to control your arm with both hands.

 

[Drose427]

In fairness, Hanzou's time spent training in Shotokan is probably pretty typical of what many people experience in schools which self-identify as "Traditional Martial Arts."

You could argue that his school wasn't really TMA, but that's hard to justify, given that there is no universally accepted definition of what "TMA" actually is. As far as I'm concerned, it's primarily a marketing term used by a variety of arts and schools which are very different from each other.

Of course, Hanzou's mistake is thinking that every school which uses the marketing term has the same sort of training - even within the same style. Lyoto Machida should be an instructive example for a MMA fan who thinks Shotokan doesn't teach effective fighting skills.

One thing thats important to remember here, is that many many folks who found themselves in a bad school or a school where they werent happy with the quality of training like Hanzou, tend to become very, very stubborn. They find something they like and become very rigid in their belief that their way is best,

There are a lot of people in MMA who wil bash TKD and Karates ability to fight even when showed fighters like Machida who is very much a Karate "Purist" in the cage with it being his main striking foundation. Or Spider Silva, Ben Henderson, and Cung Le who all use a lot of WTF TKD style kicks. Or back in the early days of Kickboxing, where point fighters from TSD, Karate, and TKD basically went straight into full contact bouts with boxers and folks from "Harder" styles.


There are many, many MMA guys out there who train in as many styles as they can and always seem to pick up something they like and feel they can use. When somethings been or is being used regularly in the cage and ring, and someone still denies it they're just stubborn. Some folks are just like that, trying to change their opinion would be pointless.

Folks poor experiences, or lack of experience to other styles in some cases, have given them a firm opinion. People here seem to be taking these differing opinions very personal lately hence all the animosity and frustration.

When many of us here use or have used our TMA training in the cage, ring, or in SD the idea that one needs gratification from someone on a computer screen is crazy in my opinion.

 

[Steve]

One thing thats important to remember here, is that many many folks who found themselves in a bad school or a school where they werent happy with the quality of training like Hanzou, tend to become very, very stubborn. They find something they like and become very rigid in their belief that their way is best,

There are a lot of people in MMA who wil bash TKD and Karates ability to fight even when showed fighters like Machida who is very much a Karate "Purist" in the cage with it being his main striking foundation. Or Spider Silva, Ben Henderson, and Cung Le who all use a lot of WTF TKD style kicks. Or back in the early days of Kickboxing, where point fighters from TSD, Karate, and TKD basically went straight into full contact bouts with boxers and folks from "Harder" styles.


There are many, many MMA guys out there who train in as many styles as they can and always seem to pick up something they like and feel they can use. When somethings been or is being used regularly in the cage and ring, and someone still denies it they're just stubborn. Some folks are just like that, trying to change their opinion would be pointless.

Folks poor experiences, or lack of experience to other styles in some cases, have given them a firm opinion. People here seem to be taking these differing opinions very personal lately hence all the animosity and frustration.

When many of us here use or have used our TMA training in the cage, ring, or in SD the idea that one needs gratification from someone on a computer screen is crazy in my opinion.

Great points. If I understand hanzou's position correctly, it's not karate he has concerns with. It's the way in which the karate is trained. Doesn't Machida train karate differently than many other people?

Another question. Do you guys think cross training is material to his success? He is a karateka, but also a bjj black belt and has competed in sumo.


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