So an interesting thing happened to me today...

[jobo]

But specifically, the one your teacher was going through that you mentioned earlier..
Is there a reason you're avoiding this question?

one i can't recall its name, Il have to go into my pictures to find it and i can't be ****Ed and second i have no interest discussing a specific kata, only the general principle of low % moves contained in katas in general

 

[oftheherd1]

Daito-ryu does use forms - that's what their "techniques" are. They are specific, technically detailed, and rigid (in structure, not the person doing them). That's all a form is. The distinction from the technique is conceptual - the technique is the lock/throw, itself. So, a hip throw starts from the moment they are in position at your hip. Practicing the technique requires some sort of entry to it. In many MA, there's a prescribed entry that's the "official" version - and that is essentially a form. So, if a hip throw starts from a same-side grip (left hand gripping right wrist), and that's how it's always taught (with variations from other attacks being practiced later), that's a short form. Some forms are highly stylized (you can see this in the videos with the Kondo brothers doing Daito-ryu). Some are less stylized (you can see this in videos of "classical techniques" from NGA). Both are still forms, because they are not variable. There's a precise "right" way to do the "technique". Application of that technique will be (should be) more variable.

As I said, an interesting way to look at it. In the Hapkido I studied, that was not the way we looked at it. If a person grabbed us somewhere, depending on where, we had more than one technique to defend against that attack. It could be an attack to a body part, our clothing, from front or rear, but we viewed our responses as different techniques to that type of attack. Not a piece of a kata/form. That would mean you could string together as many techniques as you wished and call them a form.

As I understood during my studies, that was a significant distinction. We would not usually end different defenses the same way, even for a defense against a certain type of attack. We might throw the opponent, joint lock a part of the body, attack a nerve pressure point (often to aid in a joint lock), or strike or kick. We might dislocate a joint, throw, pin to the ground, or whatever. However that technique was taught.

Hope that makes some sense.

 

[JowGaWolf]

one i can't recall its name, Il have to go into my pictures to find it and i can't be ****Ed and second i have no interest discussing a specific kata, only the general principle of low % moves contained in katas in general

I think people are just curious because they may have some insight on the technique that may actually help you make this a high% technique. This is what I'm getting from the comments that are being made. You could be 100% correct about the technique being a low%, but if there's an chance that someone is familiar with the technique and is considers it a reliable technique, then at the very least it would be interesting to hear how they apply it.

 

[jobo]

ninjushiho, or,something close to that spelling

 

[Ironbear24]

see my post above , i see ma through the prism of a street fight or attack, doesn't work means i get knock on the floor and get my head kicked in. Now as you say everything can go wrong, but some things go wrong a lot less than others.

what i count as works is a techneque that puts my untrained opoinent on his bum 75 % of the time and doesnt lead to me on my bum 99% of the time( 1% allowed for tripping over my own shoe laces)

Ok so in this case it is important to distinguish between martial and art. Martial aims to be as highly effective as possible at well, destroying your opponent as well as avoiding yourself being destroyed. It cares nothing about appearances or looking impressive.

Art is the opposite and it's place is to either entertain and or simply be an exercise. The art in martial arts is also exaggerated in order to teach a specific principle. For example the cat stance in many kenpo methods, you will never use it as your nuetral fighting stance however the cat stance teaches how to move with your opponent so you don't get knocked over, or have your center line broken.

There comes a point in time where every single martial artist has to decide what they want, when and why.

 

[Ironbear24]

one i can't recall its name, Il have to go into my pictures to find it and i can't be ****Ed and second i have no interest discussing a specific kata, only the general principle of low % moves contained in katas in general

Well we can't provide any input if we don't know what you are referring to. Many things in martial arts are often exaggerated or "hokey" so the person practicing it could grasp whatever principles it is trying to pass on.

Then when it comes to application, things look a lot less hokey and less artsy because reality doesn't have to be that way to work.

 

[jobo]

Well we can't provide any input if we don't know what you are referring to. Many things in martial arts are often exaggerated or "hokey" so the person practicing it could grasp whatever principles it is trying to pass on.

Then when it comes to application, things look a lot less hokey and less artsy because reality doesn't have to be that way to work.

named above

 

[JowGaWolf]

ninjushiho, or,something close to that spelling

Thanks

 

[Gerry Seymour]

one i can't recall its name, Il have to go into my pictures to find it and i can't be ****Ed and second i have no interest discussing a specific kata, only the general principle of low % moves contained in katas in general

That kata is actually pertinent to the discussion. Those of us asking are doing so for a reason - we want to see how others are doing the kata, so we can tell if it's an issue with what's in the kata, or how you've learned it (which could be the teaching, or could be your understanding - obviously, we can't know which).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

As I said, an interesting way to look at it. In the Hapkido I studied, that was not the way we looked at it. If a person grabbed us somewhere, depending on where, we had more than one technique to defend against that attack. It could be an attack to a body part, our clothing, from front or rear, but we viewed our responses as different techniques to that type of attack. Not a piece of a kata/form. That would mean you could string together as many techniques as you wished and call them a form.

As I understood during my studies, that was a significant distinction. We would not usually end different defenses the same way, even for a defense against a certain type of attack. We might throw the opponent, joint lock a part of the body, attack a nerve pressure point (often to aid in a joint lock), or strike or kick. We might dislocate a joint, throw, pin to the ground, or whatever. However that technique was taught.

Hope that makes some sense.

It sounds like your study centered around what we'd call "applications" - which is where most of my/my students' time is spent. The classical form (what some styles call the "technique") is a starting point for learning the basic movements, and some related principles.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ok so in this case it is important to distinguish between martial and art. Martial aims to be as highly effective as possible at well, destroying your opponent as well as avoiding yourself being destroyed. It cares nothing about appearances or looking impressive.

Art is the opposite and it's place is to either entertain and or simply be an exercise. The art in martial arts is also exaggerated in order to teach a specific principle. For example the cat stance in many kenpo methods, you will never use it as your nuetral fighting stance however the cat stance teaches how to move with your opponent so you don't get knocked over, or have your center line broken.

There comes a point in time where every single martial artist has to decide what they want, when and why.

The "art" in "martial art" is nothing to do with entertainment. It has no relation to "fine arts", etc. It's a whole term "martial arts". Martial arts can be interpreted (by individual, school, etc.) into something that is no longer about fighting/combat/defensive skills, but that's not the original intent. The exercises (including many of them that look odd, showy, or weak) are teaching principles that lead to the fighting/combat/defense end. It's not two sides - it should all be an integrated whole.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

ninjushiho, or,something close to that spelling

Thanks. Which style are we talking about? I looked at 3 videos, and none had a ducking motion in them, so I suspect I'm looking at the wrong material.

 

[drop bear]

I think the ducking he is describing is literally just ducking under the punch - like a bad fight scene in an old Star Trek episode. I've seen it used in some MA as a placeholder for high passes and ducks like the one you're describing.

People also duck and weave badly. If you duck or slip and are creating space. You get nailed. Very common beginner flaw.

 

[drop bear]

you also have the concept of level changing for take downs. This works very well as a form of ducking a punch.

Very nice form in this video. That is the sort of combative double leg you really need to be worried about.

Notice you don't have defensive downward elbow or defensive guillotine choke with this version.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

you also have the concept of level changing for take downs. This works very well as a form of ducking a punch.

Very nice form in this video. That is the sort of combative double leg you really need to be worried about.

Notice you don't have defensive downward elbow or defensive guillotine choke with this version.

My level changing was never great, and has gone to crap over the last few years, as my knees got more persistently crappy. Not only does it make stuff like this harder for me, it leaves me more vulnerable to stuff like this.

 

[drop bear]

My level changing was never great, and has gone to crap over the last few years, as my knees got more persistently crappy. Not only does it make stuff like this harder for me, it leaves me more vulnerable to stuff like this.

You may have to do the drop knee version. Which will keep your back a bit straighter.

What you have just mentioned moves interestingly into safe lifting.

All well and good. But a poster does not condition the body to have the flexibility to do those movements properly.

 

[DaveB]

one i can't recall its name, Il have to go into my pictures to find it and i can't be ****Ed and second i have no interest discussing a specific kata, only the general principle of low % moves contained in katas in general

But is there such a principle?

Despite a historical precedent, Karate application is for most styles a modern phenomenon. The specific application syllabus is instructor dependent.

Even so, the bulk of karate, both in training and kata content is usually about creating opportunities to employ basic techniques without interruption.

Ducking, though present in principle (and in the folk tales of karate masters) is not something you see often in karate forms. Slips are more common. In fact I can't think of a specific instance of ducking.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You may have to do the drop knee version. Which will keep your back a bit straighter.

What you have just mentioned moves interestingly into safe lifting.

All well and good. But a poster does not condition the body to have the flexibility to do those movements properly.

Yeah, I got excuses for that, too. I have arthritic big toes (about 40% loss of mobility on the left), so dropping to a knee is a bad idea, in some situations/positions. I've been working on some new methods of getting to levels (some knee, some back), and my knees have gotten a bit better in the last year, but it's probably just something I don't have reliably in my arsenal as much as I wish. If my knees continue to improve a bit, level changing is on my list for development.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

you also have the concept of level changing for take downs.

In wrestling, there are

1. upper body control - control your opponent's head or shoulder.
2. lower body control - control your opponent's waist or leg.

IMO, 1 > 2

When you control your opponent's head such as reverse head lock (guillotine choke), you can apply your body weight on your opponent.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In wrestling, there are

1. upper body control - control your opponent's head or shoulder.
2. lower body control - control your opponent's waist or leg.

IMO, 1 > 2

When you control your opponent's head such as reverse head lock (guillotine choke), you can apply your body weight on your opponent.

If you truly control his leg, you control a percentage of his entire body - including his upper body.