So an interesting thing happened to me today...

[JowGaWolf]

Fighting isn't about showcasing your skills.

Fighting is about winning.

True. I think being able to use 50% of what is train is a good thing depending on what the 50% consists of. I don't know if I can say the same about my skill set. For the longest I referred to myself as a beginner simply for the fact that I'm no way near being able to use 50% of what I train. 5% of what I train is more than enough to keep me busy simply because one motion "technique" has multiple applications. I am happy that from my first form I'm able to use every technique in that form in free sparring with the exception of 5 techniques that I haven't had an opportunity to actually try against someone. I'm think the other techniques may be something that I will have a better chance to learn how to use if I spar with a Wing Chun practitioner.

 

[jobo]

What kata?

Most kata interpretations are instructor specific. You may find that other people make those same kata techniques work more easily.

its the point that a fair % of techniques are a low,% high risk option that the issue, now I'm more than happy to admit that my quoted % apply to me, that they would change for the better if someone was more talented than me or for the worse for someone less so.

i think its the,art element of ma, that it contains pretty movements that only the very best can ever hope to utilise and even then they are,still far,lower % than many others moves.

i consider that any moves that involve ducking a punch or even more trapping a punch.to be more art that practical application, i think i could possibly pull them off if my attacker was a,slow drunk, i would most likely end up on the floor if they were of average physically capability. Now that doesn't really matter if its a contest with a ref or,sparring it a learning oppertunity and,a,chance to improve, but can be a very,serious problem if its a street,fight/ attack

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

it contains pretty movements that only the very best can ever hope to utilise and even then they are,still far,lower % than many others moves.

In the long fist system, there are moves that you

- bend down, grab a handful of sand, and throw at your opponent's face.
- drop low and run while kicking dirt at your opponent's face when he follows you.
- ...

If you take those moves out of the form, you may eliminate people's imagination big time.

The following "fancy" form was designed for people who has handcuff on.

 

[jobo]

In the long fist system, there are moves that you

- bend down, grab a handful of sand, and throw at your opponent's face.
- drop low and run while kicking dirt at your opponent's face when he follows you.
- ...

If you take those moves out of the form, you may eliminate people's imagination big time.

The following "fancy" form was designed for people who has handcuff on.

i have friend who insists that one night he had a gang menacing him, so he pick up the largest dog turd he could find, smear it all over his hands and then tried to rub it on the group,who all started heaving and ran away,

should that be included as a move?

 

[JowGaWolf]

In the long fist system, there are moves that you

- bend down, grab a handful of sand, and throw at your opponent's face.
- drop low and run while kicking dirt at your opponent's face when he follows you.
- ...

If you take those moves out of the form, you may eliminate people's imagination big time.

The following "fancy" form was designed for people who has handcuff on.

And that's why people get their hands tied or handcuffed behind their backs lol.

 

[DaveB]

its the point that a fair % of techniques are a low,% high risk option that the issue, now I'm more than happy to admit that my quoted % apply to me, that they would change for the better if someone was more talented than me or for the worse for someone less so.

i think its the,art element of ma, that it contains pretty movements that only the very best can ever hope to utilise and even then they are,still far,lower % than many others moves.

i consider that any moves that involve ducking a punch or even more trapping a punch.to be more art that practical application, i think i could possibly pull them off if my attacker was a,slow drunk, i would most likely end up on the floor if they were of average physically capability. Now that doesn't really matter if its a contest with a ref or,sparring it a learning oppertunity and,a,chance to improve, but can be a very,serious problem if its a street,fight/ attack

ALL well and good, but I still would like to know which kata you are referring to.

Flowery unrealistic techniques and karate are not things commonly associated with one another, so I would like to know more about the kata and the style it comes from.

 

[Ironbear24]

Why does this matter? It's clear that many MMA guys will often be on the boat of "TMA sucks bruh! Take real martial arts like us!"

Let them have their boat. Meanwhile we will be on our own that welcomes all martial arts.

 

[JowGaWolf]

ALL well and good, but I still would like to know which kata you are referring to.

Flowery unrealistic techniques and karate are not things commonly associated with one another, so I would like to know more about the kata and the style it comes from.

It only gets extreme when it's "extreme karate martial arts," but then at that point it's no longer karate.

Karate, TKD, Hapkido, and Kung Fu all have martial arts based entertainment and unfortunately many people think that it's martial arts but it really isn't. Martial arts that's used for fighting is fairly bland. So I'm curious as well as to what is being called flowery techniques. I need a visual

 

[JowGaWolf]

i consider that any moves that involve ducking a punch or even more trapping a punch.to be more art that practical application,

I'll see if I have a video of me doing just that. I know I've done it before during free sparring. I have also trapped a punch (if you include pinning punches) both work well for the technique I was doing.

 

[jobo]

I'll see if I have a video of me doing just that. I know I've done it before during free sparring. I have also trapped a punch (if you include pinning punches) both work well for the technique I was doing.

I've done it as,well in a,controlled environment, that doesn't mean its not the,sort of thing that canend very badly against a real attacker.

people have trouble,doing it to me, if they,duck my right i hit them with a left or a knee and trapping a full speed punch is only a high % move if you are in the matrix. In real life people,don't stand there with their,arm out, they pull it back double quick

 

[oftheherd1]

It only gets extreme when it's "extreme karate martial arts," but then at that point it's no longer karate.

Karate, TKD, Hapkido, and Kung Fu all have martial arts based entertainment and unfortunately many people think that it's martial arts but it really isn't. Martial arts that's used for fighting is fairly bland. So I'm curious as well as to what is being called flowery techniques. I need a visual

I can only comment of the Hapkido I studied. No entertainment. Just practical and effective defensive techniques against attacks.

 

[oftheherd1]

I'm like that as well in terms of working out a technique. I've failed at many of my techniques before I got them right. But all of them I had to actually put my understanding of a technique to the test. A lot of times getting hit works better than visualizing being hit. If I fail, I don't discount the technique. I just go back to analyzing the technique and what I may be doing wrong. There have been a couple of times where I learned different applications of a technique by accident (not trying) simply because I was working on a technique I was having trouble with.

It's definitely necessary to play with the techniques and eat a few punches and or kicks. I don't see how any of this can really be learned with just drills. Fighting is just so fluid and each person moves differently which often times changes which techniques one may be able to use. So getting in there for that "pain" is just part of the learning. Granted it's not necessary to kill each other but there will be some discomfort.

In my experience, that is usually the key. At least in the Hapikido I learned, all techniques are good, if done correctly. If they aren't working for you, and you can't figure it out on your own, you no doubt need to ask your instructor what you are doing wrong and what you need to do to make it right.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I've done it as,well in a,controlled environment, that doesn't mean its not the,sort of thing that canend very badly against a real attacker.

people have trouble,doing it to me, if they,duck my right i hit them with a left or a knee and trapping a full speed punch is only a high % move if you are in the matrix. In real life people,don't stand there with their,arm out, they pull it back double quick

Two thoughts on this. If you know what they are going to do (either because they've told you, or because you recognize it), you're countering, and that doesn't necessarily show a problem with the series of techniques. And it may be that they are forcing it - trying to do it when it's really not available. The most exaggerated example I can think of off the top of my head would be someone continuing to try a double-leg when their opponent has sprawled and gotten their upper body over their back. There are much better options from there. The same may be happening with this technique - they keep trying to make it work, even after your body shifts to where they are in danger of those strikes from you. There's something "next to" that technique that they should be using there, instead.

Of course, none of that means the technique is necessarily useful or effective - just some thoughts on where I see techniques "fail", but it's not a problem with the technique.

 

[oftheherd1]

Two thoughts on this. If you know what they are going to do (either because they've told you, or because you recognize it), you're countering, and that doesn't necessarily show a problem with the series of techniques. And it may be that they are forcing it - trying to do it when it's really not available. The most exaggerated example I can think of off the top of my head would be someone continuing to try a double-leg when their opponent has sprawled and gotten their upper body over their back. There are much better options from there. The same may be happening with this technique - they keep trying to make it work, even after your body shifts to where they are in danger of those strikes from you. There's something "next to" that technique that they should be using there, instead.

Of course, none of that means the technique is necessarily useful or effective - just some thoughts on where I see techniques "fail", but it's not a problem with the technique.

As I see that defense you were replying to, it would be better to slide one's left hand down to the right wrist of the attacker, then use the right hand to grab the other side of the hand and twist the left hand counter-clockwise, stepping in as you do so. Then a leg sweep to the opponent's right leg or a hip throw. I wouldn't be surprised if you have a move like that in your curriculum.

 

[jobo]

Two thoughts on this. If you know what they are going to do (either because they've told you, or because you recognize it), you're countering, and that doesn't necessarily show a problem with the series of techniques. And it may be that they are forcing it - trying to do it when it's really not available. The most exaggerated example I can think of off the top of my head would be someone continuing to try a double-leg when their opponent has sprawled and gotten their upper body over their back. There are much better options from there. The same may be happening with this technique - they keep trying to make it work, even after your body shifts to where they are in danger of those strikes from you. There's something "next to" that technique that they should be using there, instead.

Of course, none of that means the technique is necessarily useful or effective - just some thoughts on where I see techniques "fail", but it's not a problem with the technique.

this is in danger of going the way of Dave bs epic thread
with" every thing working" if you train it right"

I've dodged a fair few punches in my life, they really shouldn't be able to hit you if you have even an inkling that they are going to fire, you only have to move your head 2 or 3 or 4' whilst they have to throw a punch 2or three feet of travel. If you are ducking under a punch thrown at jaw height then you are at least doubling the distance you have to move to be clear of the punch and consequently at least doubling the time it takes. Now you can do that in sparring and it doesn't matter greatly if they catch you or not. In an actual fight it matters a great deal, it looks great if you pull it off and not good at all if they split your eye open.

WORKS has to have a relatively high % of works in it against a capable oppoinent

 

[Ironbear24]

I've done it as,well in a,controlled environment, that doesn't mean its not the,sort of thing that canend very badly against a real attacker.

people have trouble,doing it to me, if they,duck my right i hit them with a left or a knee and trapping a full speed punch is only a high % move if you are in the matrix. In real life people,don't stand there with their,arm out, they pull it back double quick

So just because techniques can fail means they are bad and not realistic? That may not be what you are trying to say but that is what it is sounding like. All techniques can fail for a wide number of reasons, nothing in life is full proof and martial arts are no different..

Something as simple as a punch or low kick can fail and in fact fails all of the time. When one uses a paint brush and fails to make art they shouldn't blame it on the brush or the canvas, they need to look at themselves and see what about it they are not doing right.

Also look at the situation, did the situation call for said technique? If you are trying to force it to work then odds are it isn't going to, a simple judo leg sweep like osoto geri for example, if I failed to get them onto standing on one foot when I push or pull them then odds are the throw will fail to work because they have their other leg to stand and regain posture.

I'd basically be struggling with them when instead I could do something different.

 

[jobo]

So just because techniques can fail means they are bad and not realistic? That may not be what you are trying to say but that is what it is sounding like. All techniques can fail for a wide number of reasons, nothing in life is full proof and martial arts are no different..

Something as simple as a punch or low kick can fail and in fact fails all of the time. When one uses a paint brush and fails to make art they shouldn't blame it on the brush or the canvas, they need to look at themselves and see what about it they are not doing right.

Also look at the situation, did the situation call for said technique? If you are trying to force it to work then odds are it isn't going to, a simple judo leg sweep like osoto geri for example, if I failed to get them onto standing on one foot when I push or pull them then odds are the throw will fail to work because they have their other leg to stand and regain posture.

I'd basically be struggling with them when instead I could do something different.

see my post above , i see ma through the prism of a street fight or attack, doesn't work means i get knock on the floor and get my head kicked in. Now as you say everything can go wrong, but some things go wrong a lot less than others.

what i count as works is a techneque that puts my untrained opoinent on his bum 75 % of the time and doesnt lead to me on my bum 99% of the time( 1% allowed for tripping over my own shoe laces)

 

[JP3]

I can agree with your reaction to his arrogance, but I'm curious about this:



If he used basic kicks and punches, those are techniques from his MA. Why is it disappointing that he didn't use other techniques? I would assume he was using what he found to be most useful. If I were to train for that kind of open competition, there are entire swaths of my art that would not be best suited. Many of them might be useful, but only if the right situation presented (so they are less likely to be seen), while a small core would be very likely to show up on a regular basis.

Yup.... I mean, it's not like there are a Lot of correct opportunities for me to use the awesome-looking 360-degree jump-spin hook kick, even though I spent probably about 2 years really getting the mechanics worked out in my 20s. Of course, I've not attempted it in the last 5 years, but still. On this concept DB is accurate, simple and conservative tends to be the best, tactically. Just my $0.02.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

As I see that defense you were replying to, it would be better to slide one's left hand down to the right wrist of the attacker, then use the right hand to grab the other side of the hand and twist the left hand counter-clockwise, stepping in as you do so. Then a leg sweep to the opponent's right leg or a hip throw. I wouldn't be surprised if you have a move like that in your curriculum.

I suck at picturing what people describe. I swear that sounds like a backwards hip throw to me, no matter how many times I read it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

this is in danger of going the way of Dave bs epic thread
with" every thing working" if you train it right"

I've dodged a fair few punches in my life, they really shouldn't be able to hit you if you have even an inkling that they are going to fire, you only have to move your head 2 or 3 or 4' whilst they have to throw a punch 2or three feet of travel. If you are ducking under a punch thrown at jaw height then you are at least doubling the distance you have to move to be clear of the punch and consequently at least doubling the time it takes. Now you can do that in sparring and it doesn't matter greatly if they catch you or not. In an actual fight it matters a great deal, it looks great if you pull it off and not good at all if they split your eye open.

WORKS has to have a relatively high % of works in it against a capable oppoinent

I agree about trying to change levels that far. However, IMO, things like that are the set-up. You wouldn't choose to do it, it is what happened (somehow the punch passed over your head). Or, it's just a way to practice being at the point it leads to, so if you ignore how you got there, you're really just shifting your partner into place for the point at which the defense actually starts.

To clarify the latter, think of it like a wrestling coach demonstrating a single-leg takedown. He steps in, then realizes he is blocking the students' view because of the angle. He grabs his partner and tugs him sideways around about 45 degrees. Now he's in position to start the single-leg. It is my opinion that some "techniques" contain movement that just puts the person it the right "starting position" with a little momentum so you can practice over and over with the least effort and best repeatability. In application, it's that "starting position" that you're looking for to know it's time to reach for that technique.

Does that make sense? It's easier to explain in a room with someone to demonstrate on.