So an interesting thing happened to me today...

[jobo]

That's why I said "functional martial arts" in my statement. If the technique is only for show and entertainment then those aren't at risk because they don't fall into the scope of "functional martial arts.". Things like that can be made up and often are. It's the real stuff that takes many years to create and with each generation those techniques are improved upon. Those type of things are at risk for being lost. Even the techniques that help train and condition the body, so that the fighting techniques can be functional should be treasured. Once these things are lost then it's like trying to reinvent the wheel, people literally have to start over from scratch to try to figure stuff out. It's not a guarantee that people do today can figure out things from the past. As good as our ability to build tall buildings is, they still can't figure out how pyramids were actually made. Sometimes martial arts is just like that, the knowledge becomes lost for ever and that's a shame. The only thing stuff like that shows is that we (as humans) weren't smart enough to recorded and too dumb to figure it out from scratch after it was lost.

but they are only at risk of being lost if they are low% moves that people won't use in actual combat, if that's the case then they a) arnt functional and b) are no actual loss to the world

 

[JowGaWolf]

if you are doing TRADITIONAL ma then you do traditional kata and traditional kata contains fantasy moves,

I do traditional martial arts and there's no fantasy in the forms that are found in Jow Ga kung fu. All of it is functional form the beginning to the end. Jow Ga kung fu is not the only system that is like this, so it's not something that makes Jow Ga unique in terms of function. There is a lot of Wushu promoted by the Chinese government that is for show and they have even said as much from their own mouths. Just based on the conversation I had with the "Expert" it appears that Wushu is the "Standard of Kung Fu" in the eyes of many Chinese, but there are some old skool Kung Fu practitioners who would never try to do the precision performances that we often see with Wushu. To give you an example, in terms of flashy moves. This is a Wushu competition.

Traditional Martial Arts aren't known for being flashy like that. Here' a good Jow Ga 2 man staff set. Not flashy in comparison to the first video. All of the stuff in the set is practical and something that you could actually use.

There are a lot of Traditional Martial Arts systems out there that don't do the flips and don't have wasted movements by doing things that one wouldn't or couldn't do in a real fight fight.

 

[JowGaWolf]

but they are only at risk of being lost if they are low% moves that people won't use in actual combat, if that's the case then they a) arnt functional and b) are no actual loss to the world

I agree. Which is why those move are important as well. If a practitioner isn't good at a move then he shouldn't throw it away. He or she may have a student that can actually be good at some of the techniques that the instructor wasn't good at. I'll use myself and my Sifu as an example. My Sifu doesn't care much for sweeps, he never liked them and he likes them even less now that he has knee troubles from an unrelated martial art injury. But for me. I'm pretty good with sweeps. I love them and I use them. Sweeps fit well with my fighting strategy of fighting. Had my Sifu thrown away his knowledge of sweeps just because he didn't like to use them, then I would have never learn those techniques and I would have never become good at it. Regardless of how well my Sifu uses the sweep didn't matter to him. It's a functional technique so he kept it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

we have spent the last god knows how many weeks, working our way through a higher level kata, 20 odd techniques at one a,week, with out actually counting, i estimate that 50% of them are good usable skills, 25%might be ok if you had the reactions of a cobra and 25% will get you badly hurt.

why are we doing them? They are in the kata, why are they in the kata? Nobody knows, they just are

My school isn't like that and I've seen other schools that aren't like that in terms of needing the reactions of a cobra. Much of what I've personally learned in terms of pulling a technique off is more about triggering a known reaction from the opponent and using the technique to exploit the reaction. I personally teach students that they will have a slow success rate of techniques is they are always trying to react and anticipate what their opponent is trying to do. I make it a point that the students understand that they need to control a fight. If my opponent throws a jab at my face then it's because I wanted him to do so, and not because he made that decision on his own. If I try to make my opponent strike my face and he kicks me in the stomach instead, then that is my warning that I'm no longer dictating what my opponent is doing and that my opponent now controls the fight.

I don't know the system that you are training but it sounds like you are:
1. good at 50% of what you know
2. Too slow or haven't mastered the timing required for 25% or what you know (keep in mind you only need to be faster than your opponent not everyone is going to be faster than you)
3. You don't fully understand the last 25% yet, lack the capabilities needed for the last 25%, or the last 25% is actually junk.

I understand that schools are different so if there is something that is truly useless and is just for entertainment, then don't worry about saving that entertainment piece. It's much easier to create an entertainment component than to create a functional component. Entertainment only has to look good. Function has to take into consideration a wide set of issues and is often only functional within a small area of opportunity.

 

[jobo]

My school isn't like that and I've seen other schools that aren't like that in terms of needing the reactions of a cobra. Much of what I've personally learned in terms of pulling a technique off is more about triggering a known reaction from the opponent and using the technique to exploit the reaction. I personally teach students that they will have a slow success rate of techniques is they are always trying to react and anticipate what their opponent is trying to do. I make it a point that the students understand that they need to control a fight. If my opponent throws a jab at my face then it's because I wanted him to do so, and not because he made that decision on his own. If I try to make my opponent strike my face and he kicks me in the stomach instead, then that is my warning that I'm no longer dictating what my opponent is doing and that my opponent now controls the fight.

I don't know the system that you are training but it sounds like you are:
1. good at 50% of what you know
2. Too slow or haven't mastered the timing required for 25% or what you know (keep in mind you only need to be faster than your opponent not everyone is going to be faster than you)
3. You don't fully understand the last 25% yet, lack the capabilities needed for the last 25%, or the last 25% is actually junk.

I understand that schools are different so if there is something that is truly useless and is just for entertainment, then don't worry about saving that entertainment piece. It's much easier to create an entertainment component than to create a functional component. Entertainment only has to look good. Function has to take into consideration a wide set of issues and is often only functional within a small area of opportunity.

let's look at the 25% not fast enough.
one techneque was that your opoinent throw a right hand at you, you duck under the punch to your left, you right hand goes up to their ear and then you trap the punching hand, run your left arm up and get them in a neck twist,

ducking punches is a bad idea( unless you are FM), you tend to walk right in to a left hand or a knee in the face, by the time you have ducked a good opoinent isn't there any more, at the very least the,arm is no longer extends for you to trap.

if you were supper fast or you attacker was supper slow, maybe, but otherwise it a very low. % move

it depend on the old, hold your arm out straight whilst i trap it stuff

 

[Tez3]

one techneque was that your opoinent throw a right hand at you, you duck under the punch to your left, you right hand goes up to their ear and then you trap the punching hand, run your left arm up and get them in a neck twist

That works perfectly every time!........ with a non resisting complaint partner so that the two of you walk away believing that they are now able to defend anything.

What we do with our karate bunkai though isn't like that, non resisting only lasts as long as it takes for you to work out the technique then it's hurt time. The tori makes an unplanned attack and uke defends it using techniques from kata. Our kata isn't fancy but the bunkai works.

 

[JowGaWolf]

let's look at the 25% not fast enough.
one techneque was that your opoinent throw a right hand at you, you duck under the punch to your left, you right hand goes up to their ear and then you trap the punching hand, run your left arm up and get them in a neck twist,

would this technique be possible if you baited this punch. This would mean that you know the punch is coming and how it will come. This means that your brain isn't trying to figure out what to do. It almost becomes like a demo at this point. You know what punch he's going to throw and how fast he's going to throw the punch. Is this technique one that can be done against someone trying to throw a punch combo? Or is this punch something that you would do against people who like to throw a lot of single punches and range finders? Can you do this technique against someone who doesn't have fast punching speeds? Is this technique done at long range or is it something that should be applied at closer ranges just inside the point of contact, meaning that if you don't duck then you get punched in the face. Is the technique an initial technique that you set up or is this a recovery technique that you do after ducking a punch naturally? Is this technique being used against the correct punch or does it work better against different types of punches, say a punch that goes across the body like a hay maker? Is there a certain way you need to duck in order to give your opponent the illusion that you are going for their legs but in reality, which stalls the decision process of throwing the left punch to the face? Does the technique works if you go to the right instead of the left? These are things that just pop up to mind when trying to figure what you describe as not being fast enough.

I would have to actually see the technique to analyze and figure out in what context the technique may work, but as you can see there is quite a bit that comes to mind right away.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That works perfectly every time!........ with a non resisting complaint partner so that the two of you walk away believing that they are now able to defend anything.

What we do with our karate bunkai though isn't like that, non resisting only lasts as long as it takes for you to work out the technique then it's hurt time. The tori makes an unplanned attack and uke defends it using techniques from kata. Our kata isn't fancy but the bunkai works.

I'm like that as well in terms of working out a technique. I've failed at many of my techniques before I got them right. But all of them I had to actually put my understanding of a technique to the test. A lot of times getting hit works better than visualizing being hit. If I fail, I don't discount the technique. I just go back to analyzing the technique and what I may be doing wrong. There have been a couple of times where I learned different applications of a technique by accident (not trying) simply because I was working on a technique I was having trouble with.

It's definitely necessary to play with the techniques and eat a few punches and or kicks. I don't see how any of this can really be learned with just drills. Fighting is just so fluid and each person moves differently which often times changes which techniques one may be able to use. So getting in there for that "pain" is just part of the learning. Granted it's not necessary to kill each other but there will be some discomfort.

 

[Tez3]

Fighting is just so fluid and

I think we may train with different aims though. For fight training we do a lot of sparring as well as practising fighting techniques such as speeding up strikes or making them stronger. In kata bunkai though we are training for self defence not fighting. Ours is karate kata and karate is designed for unarmed civilian self defence.
One of the things Iain Abernethy will tell you is that in a self defence situation his first technique is to punch his attacker out ( he's a strong puncher) if he hasn't dropped them then his fallback is bunkai. However he's very experienced and has most techniques off so that he can do them instructively regardless of which hand they use etc. We are working on that.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

my teacher always told me that advanced techniques are just refined basics and polished principles.

In CMA, an advance techniques can be

1. set up - such as to use a groin kick to set up a face punch.
2. combo - such as a front kick, roundhouse kick, side kick, spin back fist combo.
3. multiple defense - such as to block a kick, block a punch, ...
4. ...

well that my point, if you are doing TRADITIONAL ma then you do traditional kata and traditional kata contains fantasy moves, if you throw them out, then the knowledge is lost, as was being claimed by the op and it's no longer traditional

With some MA knowledge, you can find a lot of valuable information from a fancy move.

One day I watch a preying mantis teacher taught his class in the park. His beginner students were doing something while one of his older student was doing a "3 steps 8 moves" combo. That "3 steps 8 moves" combo impressed me so much and I decide to steal that information. After I had digested that information, I then realized how smart our ancestor were when they creates those fancy moves.

If I try to create a modern form today, I don't think I can create one as good as that ancient form creator did.

 

[Flying Crane]

It seems to me that a whole lot of people want to dictate to everyone else where their limits are.

Weird. We see it a lot.

 

[Martial D]

Being good in one or two ranges(out of four, grappling, trapping boxing and kicking) is cool and all, up till the point you end up at a range you aren't trained for and the other guy is. Most TMA tend to stay at either kicking and punching range(karate, tkd, most northern style Kung fu,etc), or trapping and grappling range(judo, jjj, wc), but very few incorporate all 4 in any meaningful way.

This is to say nothing of what striking or grappling style is more effective than the next, but that's been done to death.

 

[DaveB]

we have spent the last god knows how many weeks, working our way through a higher level kata, 20 odd techniques at one a,week, with out actually counting, i estimate that 50% of them are good usable skills, 25%might be ok if you had the reactions of a cobra and 25% will get you badly hurt.

why are we doing them? They are in the kata, why are they in the kata? Nobody knows, they just are

What kata?

Most kata interpretations are instructor specific. You may find that other people make those same kata techniques work more easily.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Nothing is so disappointing as a TMA martial artist who studies martial arts and never tries to use any of the techniques that he spent a large portion of his life and time in free sparring or sports fighting.

If you have never carried a dagger in your boots, you may never use this move in your life time. It such a beautiful move that you

- grab your opponent with your left hand.
- raise your right knee.
- use your right hand to pull out a dagger from your boots,
- stab your dagger onto your opponent's chest.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Update on my original post. And something for others to think about if they find themselves in a Similar s

I think we may train with different aims though. For fight training we do a lot of sparring as well as practising fighting techniques such as speeding up strikes or making them stronger. In kata bunkai though we are training for self defence not fighting. Ours is karate kata and karate is designed for unarmed civilian self defence.
One of the things Iain Abernethy will tell you is that in a self defence situation his first technique is to punch his attacker out ( he's a strong puncher) if he hasn't dropped them then his fallback is bunkai. However he's very experienced and has most techniques off so that he can do them instructively regardless of which hand they use etc. We are working on that.

We do the same. My aim is different because I spar to learn but everything else sounds pretty much the same. I did a lot of sparring, practiced fighting techniques such as speeding up strikes and making them stronger, If I under stand Kata Bunkai correctly then it's the same thing we do in terms of training. We don't train for sport so everything is done from the aspect of "physical self-defense." and I do a lot of analysis and try to get the other students to learn how to analysis the technique, their use of it, and their opponent.

If this is the guy you are talking about then, I like his videos. He has a practical way of explaining things.

 

[Tez3]

That's Iain . His seminars are amazing, have a look on his site because he goes all over the world. some find his Cumbrian accent a bit hard to follow lol. he's a pretty good Judoka too.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If I try to create a modern form today, I don't think I can create one as good as that ancient form creator did.

For me it wouldn't be possible. Just from the start it would be very difficult in terms of the available time that I have for martial arts. It would be something that I would almost have to bury myself in, every minute of the day in some way, be it training or understanding how the body moves, and then doing it outside of theory. In addition I would have to make the form according to one would face if they were fighting MMA, BJJ, Muay Thai, etc. Everything would have to be in the context of being applied against other systems. At the age of 45 there is no way I would be able to take the damage from learning for long. At the most it would be a work in progress in which I would hope someone I teach would continue to refine it.

I could easily make a form based on what I already know but to actually create one from scratch would be tough. I would definitely like to have some ground recovery techniques added into the form. Even a form that would be almost completely dedicated to fighting low and then being on the ground and then recovering.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I could easily make a form based on what I already know but to actually create one from scratch would be tough.

Agree! Most of the forms that we have created are just recombine what we have learned from our original forms.

To create 1,2,3 combo is easy. To create 8 moves combo is not. When you make your 1st move, you try to predict 7 more steps ahead, that will require a lot of MA knowledge.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's Iain . His seminars are amazing, have a look on his site because he goes all over the world. some find his Cumbrian accent a bit hard to follow lol. he's a pretty good Judoka too.

He also seems to be a genuinely nice guy. I've had occasion to swap a few emails with him.

 

[drop bear]

My school isn't like that and I've seen other schools that aren't like that in terms of needing the reactions of a cobra. Much of what I've personally learned in terms of pulling a technique off is more about triggering a known reaction from the opponent and using the technique to exploit the reaction. I personally teach students that they will have a slow success rate of techniques is they are always trying to react and anticipate what their opponent is trying to do. I make it a point that the students understand that they need to control a fight. If my opponent throws a jab at my face then it's because I wanted him to do so, and not because he made that decision on his own. If I try to make my opponent strike my face and he kicks me in the stomach instead, then that is my warning that I'm no longer dictating what my opponent is doing and that my opponent now controls the fight.

I don't know the system that you are training but it sounds like you are:
1. good at 50% of what you know
2. Too slow or haven't mastered the timing required for 25% or what you know (keep in mind you only need to be faster than your opponent not everyone is going to be faster than you)
3. You don't fully understand the last 25% yet, lack the capabilities needed for the last 25%, or the last 25% is actually junk.

I understand that schools are different so if there is something that is truly useless and is just for entertainment, then don't worry about saving that entertainment piece. It's much easier to create an entertainment component than to create a functional component. Entertainment only has to look good. Function has to take into consideration a wide set of issues and is often only functional within a small area of opportunity.

Fighting isn't about showcasing your skills.

Fighting is about winning.