My 2nd's gonna be close to the same, 3rd is instructor rank here for the most part so I think I have to write a paper for that. Not positive.
Should getting a Black Belt be this stressful?
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My 2nd's gonna be close to the same, 3rd is instructor rank here for the most part so I think I have to write a paper for that. Not positive.
mastercole
Master Black Belt
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To me, some people make way to much out of a Dan or Poom test. 1st Dan or Poom is a low level practitioner, 1 step above a 1st geup, like 1st geup was 1 step above 2nd geup.
All Dan and Poom holders are born out of these situations, for better or worse.
Perfect situation = Excellent instructor + Excellent student
Not so perfect situation = Excellent instructor + not so excellent student
Bad situation = Uneducated ignorant instructor + any student
As a parent, one of our goals should be to raise our children to achieve their potential in all that they can. This helps create an excellent student, for any subject. A part of that goal is finding the right teachers, excellent teachers who can help our children reach their potential in a given field of study.
As a teacher, our only goal is not to be that uneducated ignorant instructor, for the uneducated ignorant instructor smothers their students with the wrong motive, preventing them from reaching their potential.
That said, the Dan and Poom test can be open /closed - whatever, as long as the instructor is excellent, it will come out right because the motive of the instructor is right.
If the instructor is bad, then it is all bad, whatever it is.
All Dan and Poom holders are born out of these situations, for better or worse.
Perfect situation = Excellent instructor + Excellent student
Not so perfect situation = Excellent instructor + not so excellent student
Bad situation = Uneducated ignorant instructor + any student
As a parent, one of our goals should be to raise our children to achieve their potential in all that they can. This helps create an excellent student, for any subject. A part of that goal is finding the right teachers, excellent teachers who can help our children reach their potential in a given field of study.
As a teacher, our only goal is not to be that uneducated ignorant instructor, for the uneducated ignorant instructor smothers their students with the wrong motive, preventing them from reaching their potential.
That said, the Dan and Poom test can be open /closed - whatever, as long as the instructor is excellent, it will come out right because the motive of the instructor is right.
If the instructor is bad, then it is all bad, whatever it is.
Jaeimseu
3rd Black Belt
I understand that some people feel that way, but I personally don't see the need for it. Of course, none of my tests were particularly long or arduous. I've always spent more time waiting for my turn than actual time on the mat. My last test (at Kukkiwon) probably took 10 minutes or less to complete, not counting waiting in line. Actually, the color belt students at our club have a longer test than that.
I know after nearly 20 years of practice that it doesn't take a long time watching someone to see if they are skilled, even if I've never seen them before. If I can do it, then I feel pretty sure other people can, too, especially people with more experience than me.
mastercole
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If a person is performing their best, I can tell in a minute, most likely seconds if they are skilled or not. I don't need to see them swim the Great Lakes, kill a goat, swallow a flaming sword, eat broken glass, walk on hot coals, pierce their forearms with crochet needles, stay awake for a week, eat a bean a day for a month, etc to know that.
There's a place, at least in Western society today, for a coming of age right or challenge, and one place (not the only one!) to find that can be a martial arts program. But that doesn't mean that the test has to be some sort of ultimate torture test/crucible combination of BUD/S and fraternity hazing; it just has to be an experience that's out of the norm, and that pushes you in a way you haven't been pushed before.
There are a couple types of tests. Some tests are simply demonstrations that sort of put a cap or finale on your training to that point. They recognize that you've achieved that level. Others make you prove the level you've achieved. (Most BJJ schools I'm aware of do this throughout; you get a new belt when you're besting those at your current level consistently, and pushing those at the next level. Whether or not there's an actual test experience.) And some are that crucible/right of passage that I mentioned.
On the topic of parents watching -- I said it was a concern. It doesn't automatically make it a bad program or put nefarious intent on those who prohibit parents from watching. But it raises red flags. Especially when they refuse to even explain the test to the parents. In the Boy Scouts of America, there is a special program called the Order of the Arrow. The Ordeal is the initiation into the brotherhood; there's a right or ritual and it's kept "secret" to make it more meaningful. But if there are parents with concerns, there are provisions for them to review and see the content. But, apparently, at this school -- what goes on in the Black Belt Panel is kept completely secret. That's a red flag. Again -- it doesn't mean that there IS a problem, but why that level of secrecy? Especially in a program involving 8 year olds?
Archtkd
3rd Black Belt
I grew up in a part of Kenya where coming of age is a very big deal, involving serious rituals that I will not write about here so as not to derail the thread. I don't believe that coming of age, though -- in any society -- shoul come at the early age of 8. Mind you I'm not saying we should not have 8-year old blackbelts, but rather that we should not consider an 8-year old blackbelt to be someone who's moved from the childhood stage -- the transition for which most coming of age rites are performed. There's a big likelihood that my 7-year old son will make blackbelt before he is 8, but he's not having any coming of age events until he is at least 13.
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
You say that you see black belt as "a low level practitioner", but wouldnt that change from club to club and art to art? I mean, Im sure bjj guys dont see a black belt as a low level practitioner and I know where we train we dont view a black belt that way either. That may be the case where you train, but you cant really generalise that across all clubs and martial arts.
That's certainly how I approach my training. I see testing as an opportunity to assess what I have learned and where I'd like to go from that point on. But, I also do this every time I practice Taekwondo.
Cynthia
mastercole
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For you or anyone it can be whatever you like, simply pick something.
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ralphmcpherson said:
Shodan=first step.
For some, it's an entrance into secrets-a step through a gate on a journey-not the culmination of a journey, but graduation onto the way, and the way is hard.
For others, it's just another step-no big deal, and it shouldn't be.
i've seen both: my tae kwon do Chudan test took a little less than 2 hours, and was really no big deal. My kyokushin test took..an awful lot out of me, never mind the time-I was 16 for both of them, though-they both were hard, really, though I didn't need to sleep the rest of the weekend away after the tae kwon do one. :lol:
In Judo, it just kind of happened-I was competing against black belts, so I was one.Yonezuka sensei just tossed me a belt, and said,[Here. put this on.
In Miyama ryu jujutsu, the hard test is the one for first kyu-that last brown belt before black belt.It takes around six hours, and the test boils down to Demonstrate the entire system, then defend against a judo shodan and a karate shodan, and if you're as perverse as I am. a boxer.
The rankings that come afterward-not so hard.
I've been in on a few rankings-maybe more than "a few"- though, where the belt -shodan- was simply awarded at the end of class-though it had been a pretty hard class-they didn't know they were going to get promoted. I can see some merit in all those ways, really-in the end, it doesn't really matter that much which way it is, what matters is how the value of it is perceived, and what was done to earn it.
andyjeffries
Senior Master
Just to let you know, you're definitely not alone. I think my 1st dan test was shorter than yours! I don't advocate long gruelling tests - join the marines if you want that *****!
I've always been of the opinion that if you can't judge whether you would promote someone to a particular rank within a few minutes you shouldn't be testing them.
Just to add my 2p, I wouldn't let my child go to a school where the parents aren't allowed to watch. I think the potential for abuse is too great. I understand parents being asked to watch from a separate room (glass windows) so they don't distract the child. The school may raise great champions/martial artists, but if anything were to happen it would mentally scar that child for life - and personally I'm not willing to take that risk.
I believe the BTCB gradings are like this though - no one but the testees and their instructors are allowed in the grading hall. I disagree with that.
When I last tested students (a small catch-up test for those that weren't ready at testing time) I had one parent ask if she could watch the test. My reply was "of course, I'm sure X would love the support. I'll put some chairs behind where they'll be testing. Just please be quiet, not shouting encouragement as it may break their concentration". She was over the moon with that and I was too - I love when parents are supportive of their children in martial arts and not just treating it like some free time without the kids (I have a mixture of both).
Sorry; I wasn't at all suggesting that 8 years old is appropriate for a coming of age. It's simply one reason why there is indeed a space for a challenging, stressful black belt test. I personally don't believe in black belts below age 18 -- though that's a little bit astray of the topic.
For kiddie black belts? The tests should be appropriately scaled; reasonably challenging but not nearly the same as an adult test. An 8 or 9 year old simply can't do the same things as an adult, in many ways. As someone else already said -- a test that challenges an 8 year old would probably be pretty easy for an adult!
StudentCarl
3rd Black Belt
To me the training is the test; the 'test' should be a demonstration rather than answering a question. I understand the idea of making a test a rite of passage or a 'proving', but I think that regular training habits and skills tell you more about a person overall than a single test...though I agree with the sentiment that a skilled instructor/practitioner can evaluate a person's skills in a pretty short time. Skills alone don't tell the story. I guess that comes back to how you define a black belt; I think dedication, habits, and consistency matter as much or more. Who has initiative, dogged perseverence, independence, spirit? I also think that real pressure testing should be part of training, not a novelty or curveball on test day.
As a comparison of character, I know people who practice their religion on Sunday when they dress up and go to church, but the rest of the week you'd wonder what guides them. I also know people who never attend church who live with more faith and moral character than those who attend regularly. People who test well don't necessarily make good black belts.
My black belt test was a couple of hours. I've had harder, more grueling mental, emotional and physical times in team training sessions. It really comes down to what you sign up for.
One concern for the OP is that it sounds like the story has changed. If the story changes, the product you're buying is no longer what was promised. If so, how can you trust them?
Carl
As a comparison of character, I know people who practice their religion on Sunday when they dress up and go to church, but the rest of the week you'd wonder what guides them. I also know people who never attend church who live with more faith and moral character than those who attend regularly. People who test well don't necessarily make good black belts.
My black belt test was a couple of hours. I've had harder, more grueling mental, emotional and physical times in team training sessions. It really comes down to what you sign up for.
One concern for the OP is that it sounds like the story has changed. If the story changes, the product you're buying is no longer what was promised. If so, how can you trust them?
Carl
decepticon
Green Belt
Although my daughter is now 13, I have very strong feelings about activities for younger kids. NO ONE, and I mean No One, ever took her away from me into any secret place where I could not be present. Not doctors, orthodontists, religious leaders, or martial arts instructors. I was highly indignant toward those few who tried to do so and left their facilities in short order. It ticks me off even now, to think that anyone else believes they have the right to do anything to my child without my consent. How dare anyone try to preempt the rights of parents! (Can you see the bristling of my bear fur?)
That said, I do understand how some parents could be a hinderance to belt testing. I think it would be reasonable to have some form explaining to them what they were about to see, what it was intended to accomplish, and what behavior was expected of them during the test. They could then sign, promising to keep quiet/not disruptive during the test or agreeing to take their student and leave the testing area - no passing grade, no refund. And they could certainly have the option of waiting outside the room and/or not watching, if they doubted their resolve to keep out of it.
During my daughter's childhood, there were often times when I chose to leave her alone in a class or activity. But it was my choice and I always retained the option to pop in, should I desire to do so. Any time parents were barred (with the understandable exceptions of kids making surprise Mother's Day or Christmas presents, or what not), that sent up a huge red flag to me. What were they planning to do in there that they expected I would object to? If a parent - the person morally and legally charged with ensuring the safety of their children - would object, then what possible justification would be strong enough to override their wishes? After all, they are the ones paying for the service - they are the actual clients and are the ones you need to keep happy.
I agree that putting 8yo's under such pressure that their parents would be tempted to remove them from it is a tremendously risky scenario. It seems very dangerous to me to put the reputation of the school and instructors into the hands of what are often highly excitable and imaginative 8yo's. Doesn't matter whether other BB's were present or whether the kid is just making stuff up. Word of mouth spreads like wildfire and a reputation is a fragile thing that can be quickly damaged, even by untrue and unfair accusations.
Let's face it. We all have a pretty good idea of what 8yo's are capable of in terms of martial arts. Regardless of the color of their belts, they still have 8yo brains and are limited in their judgement, perspective, and comprehension. While martial arts may help them to learn to handle stress to the best of their ability, it can not change their innate ability. No amount of martial arts training or testing can change that biology.
To the original poster, ditch that school and fast! Kind of makes you wonder what else have they been up to that they are not telling parents, since they seem to feel it is okay to keep parents in the dark about some things. Cut your losses and count yourself lucky to get out before anything really bad happens. Find another school that has more of an open door policy. If your child gained valid skills during his time there, they will transfer to a new setting and enable him to progress well and rapidly. If the skills don't seem to transfer well (I'm talking about basic things like balance, stamina, attention span, kicks, blocks, strikes, etc.), then you really have to question the quality of the instruction he was receiving - better to get out now than to throw any more money down that hole.
That said, I do understand how some parents could be a hinderance to belt testing. I think it would be reasonable to have some form explaining to them what they were about to see, what it was intended to accomplish, and what behavior was expected of them during the test. They could then sign, promising to keep quiet/not disruptive during the test or agreeing to take their student and leave the testing area - no passing grade, no refund. And they could certainly have the option of waiting outside the room and/or not watching, if they doubted their resolve to keep out of it.
During my daughter's childhood, there were often times when I chose to leave her alone in a class or activity. But it was my choice and I always retained the option to pop in, should I desire to do so. Any time parents were barred (with the understandable exceptions of kids making surprise Mother's Day or Christmas presents, or what not), that sent up a huge red flag to me. What were they planning to do in there that they expected I would object to? If a parent - the person morally and legally charged with ensuring the safety of their children - would object, then what possible justification would be strong enough to override their wishes? After all, they are the ones paying for the service - they are the actual clients and are the ones you need to keep happy.
I agree that putting 8yo's under such pressure that their parents would be tempted to remove them from it is a tremendously risky scenario. It seems very dangerous to me to put the reputation of the school and instructors into the hands of what are often highly excitable and imaginative 8yo's. Doesn't matter whether other BB's were present or whether the kid is just making stuff up. Word of mouth spreads like wildfire and a reputation is a fragile thing that can be quickly damaged, even by untrue and unfair accusations.
Let's face it. We all have a pretty good idea of what 8yo's are capable of in terms of martial arts. Regardless of the color of their belts, they still have 8yo brains and are limited in their judgement, perspective, and comprehension. While martial arts may help them to learn to handle stress to the best of their ability, it can not change their innate ability. No amount of martial arts training or testing can change that biology.
To the original poster, ditch that school and fast! Kind of makes you wonder what else have they been up to that they are not telling parents, since they seem to feel it is okay to keep parents in the dark about some things. Cut your losses and count yourself lucky to get out before anything really bad happens. Find another school that has more of an open door policy. If your child gained valid skills during his time there, they will transfer to a new setting and enable him to progress well and rapidly. If the skills don't seem to transfer well (I'm talking about basic things like balance, stamina, attention span, kicks, blocks, strikes, etc.), then you really have to question the quality of the instruction he was receiving - better to get out now than to throw any more money down that hole.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Well, this will echo what I said in the previous black belts for people with disabilities thread, but as far as I'm concerned, if you're consistent and transparent, I have no issue with whatever you decide to do.
If your black belt tests are grueling, multi-day affairs involving being pushed to the limits of your physical and mental endurance, great. As long as the training has led in a logical, safe way to that point, the expectations are clearly communicated and that, in the case of minors, the parents are involved partners at every step.
These three simple criteria are, I believe, common sense and good business, regardless of how you view a black belt.
If your black belt tests are grueling, multi-day affairs involving being pushed to the limits of your physical and mental endurance, great. As long as the training has led in a logical, safe way to that point, the expectations are clearly communicated and that, in the case of minors, the parents are involved partners at every step.
These three simple criteria are, I believe, common sense and good business, regardless of how you view a black belt.
a belt test is supposed to test the student on the curricula that they have been taught in class. If they have been taught correctly then there should be no problem on exam day. If the student fails then what does that say about the instructor? If they fail for any reason it is the instructors fault for not preparing them properly.
I would insist on being allowed to watch or I would demand a refund for all tuition paid since he started(unless it was in writing that the exam would be private and you signed something agreeing to it).
I would insist on being allowed to watch or I would demand a refund for all tuition paid since he started(unless it was in writing that the exam would be private and you signed something agreeing to it).
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Exactly my own reaction. Glad I'm not the only one. I'll say though, even at 15, I'd be very suspicious of any attempt to bar me from my daughter in any way.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Whether or not the parents choose to be there is a different matter (and another potential discussion about what schools expect from the parents in the way of participation and involvement).
andyjeffries
Senior Master
The last part is the key part though.
I have some parents stay, some go. I don't mind which. However, they all have the option of staying and watching everything (classes and gradings).
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