Should getting a Black Belt be this stressful?

[cay22]

Lets go back to the OP.......
<< He is slated to go up for review board this Sat the 10th. The review board at his school starts at 9:30am on a Sat and they black out the windows and no one is allowed in even parents. The students bring a lunch and it lasts 5-8 hrs depending on the number of students. After the review board (if they pass) they get ready for the Black Belt Show. That will be June 1st. From March 10th to June 1st the students must attend 2-3 mandatory candidate workouts a week along with their normal training. They are allowed only 1 excused absence and if they are sick for 2 weeks they are no longer in the show meaning they can no longer get their Black Belt. They must wait until next years show. >>

This review board... now is this the BB exam and then the child still has to attend so many classes before the he gets the belt.....or.....what happens on June 1st. is this the exam? can parents watch this event?... is that the real BB exam?

Is this sat. the BB exam and they mandate these classes while they send off for a cert.?
Just questions that look like that has not been asked.

Jim

The way they run it is on March 10th they hold the Review Board, this is the main "test". Then they have what they call a Black Belt Show on June 1st. The Show is for parents/friends to attend, it is usually held at the local high school auditorium. They perform forms, breaks, takedowns, and "skits" or mini plays meant to show real life applications of taekwondo. It usually lasts 2 hrs and they get their belts at the end of that. The mandatory classes between review board and the show are to practice and rehearse for the show. Then there is a big party after the show.

 

[Gorilla]

Now I am beginning to understand why those Morroccans are getting so good. I've been puzzling about this with a few folks I know on the Kenya national team.

You seem to be questioning my truthfulness. I in no way suggested that my kids trained the Morrocans. My kids trained with the Morrocans and Issam really worked with my son to help him improve. Him and Charlie really hit it off.

My daughter Kym is and elite athlete and is a worl ranked fin weight. She has moved up to fly weight and has fought Sanaa Atabrour. Matter of fact it was a close fight at the Pan Am Open.

Also they work with John Kenyanjoui not sure of the spelling he is a Kenyan. I believe John did pretty well in Kenya in the 2004-2007 range.

 

[msmitht]

Ok. Do you look at dismissing them as the same thing as failing them?

It depends on how you view it. If I dismiss them in the first half of the exam them it is an "incomplete exam". If I were to let them finish then it would have to be a fail.

 

[Archtkd]

You seem to be questioning my truthfulness. I in no way suggested that my kids trained the Morrocans. My kids trained with the Morrocans and Issam really worked with my son to help him improve. Him and Charlie really hit it off.

My daughter Kym is and elite athlete and is a worl ranked fin weight. She has moved up to fly weight and has fought Sanaa Atabrour. Matter of fact it was a close fight at the Pan Am Open.

Also they work with John Kenyanjoui not sure of the spelling he is a Kenyan. I believe John did pretty well in Kenya in the 2004-2007 range.

Oh no. I was in no way questioning your truthfulness. I was saying that the Morrocans are getting good because they are doing advanced training in the U.S, something many African teams never get a chance to do. Sorry about the misundestanding.

 

[Thesemindz]

Ultimately the question "should getting a black belt be this stressful" is in and of itself meaningless. There is no standard for "black belt." Not from style to style, or school to school, or even sometimes student to student. It depends on what your son is getting a "black belt" in. Is it self defense? Olympic athletics? Feeling good about yourself? Military combat? Counting to a hundred in Korean? Killing a man with your bare hands? Happy slappy fun times? The answer to the question is completely different according to what the "black belt" represents in this context.

My test was extremely hard. I wouldn't say "stressful" exactly, because I trained like a demon to prepare for it. Hours every day, techniques, PT, fighting, weapons. It was six hours long and we were tested way past the point of exhaustion. I had to fight multiple opponents, perform hundreds of techniques and dozens of sets and forms, as well as demonstrate my ability to teach the material. I had to fight a series of senior black belt practitioners without a break. I had to defend myself against armed attackers, and pass a list of physical challenges to test my conditioning. It went on and on and on. It was one of the most physically, mentally, and emotionally challenging things I've ever endured.

We didn't allow witnesses for the test, and I don't now. But we also didn't give black belts to children, and I don't now. I wouldn't subject a child to that level of intensity. It was serious business, for serious adults. I'm not saying it's wrong for your school to test your eight year old son for a "black belt." But it won't be the same black belt. It'll mean something different, both objectively and subjectively. Which is why I say the question is meaningless. I knew of another school where the black belt test was just a beating. You fought two men until you couldn't anymore. Then they held you up while two more men beat you until the Master was satisfied. Then you got your belt. I think that's brutality and not indicative of skill development so I don't do it that way. But some clearly do. And I imagine it's "stressful" to know you're facing that.

If you don't like the school you're at or the way they do things then leave. The kid is eight. Chances are none of this will mean anything to him by the time he figures out what girls are. If you want him to face the challenge, then face it. And tell him that sometimes we fail at things because we aren't strong enough or good enough to succeed at them yet. That's life. And it's probably a more valuable lesson than whatever martial arts techniques he's practicing in his classes.


-Rob

 

[Gorilla]

Arch sorry sometimes it is hard to read intent. My misunderstanding.

 

[Archtkd]

Arch sorry sometimes it is hard to read intent. My misunderstanding.

Gorilla: no problem. I have lots of respect for you and always learn from your good posts. Next time you see John Kinyanjui ask him whether he trained with Master Ernest Olayo or Grandmaster Mogg Yoon. If he did we must have trained in the same dojang in Nairobi. It was the old Kenya Taekwondo Association main dojang in Uniafric House. GM Yoon was the Kwan Jang, and Master Olayo the chief instructor. There is a Lawrence Kinyanjui I know, who's in Wisconsin, and who also trained at the KTA main dojang. I wonder if they are related.

 

[Gorilla]

Gorilla: no problem. I have lots of respect for you and always learn from your good posts. Next time you see John Kinyanjui ask him whether he trained with Master Ernest Olayo or Grandmaster Mogg Yoon. If he did we must have trained in the same dojang in Nairobi. It was the old Kenya Taekwondo Association main dojang in Uniafric House. GM Yoon was the Kwan Jang, and Master Olayo the chief instructor. There is a Lawrence Kinyanjui I know, who's in Wisconsin, and who also trained at the KTA main dojang. I wonder if they are related.

I will talk with John tomorrow. I will be on business for the week and unable to post. I will let you know on Saturday.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

If a person is performing their best, I can tell in a minute, most likely seconds if they are skilled or not. I don't need to see them swim the Great Lakes, kill a goat, swallow a flaming sword, eat broken glass, walk on hot coals, pierce their forearms with crochet needles, stay awake for a week, eat a bean a day for a month, etc to know that.

One of my TKD sabeoms told me that could tell how good you were just by looking at your back stance. In kendo, the quality of the shomen uchi (frontal head strike) will tell the skill of the practitioner. There are other elements that instructors with to test, frequently non-physical elements, but much more than an hour or too is overkill.

At the same time, a test where the opening and closing ceremonies are longer than the test itself would be off putting to most, particularly if there is a fee attached. None of my kendo tests were longer than two hours.

Regarding the OP, I have no problem with a school putting black belts on eight year olds, provided it is consistent with organizational policy (if any), but if a school owner is putting black belts on eight year old children, then he or she should drop the hard core/ordeal facade.

As for not letting the folks watch, I am with Twin Fist and Steve all the way: it is foolish and shows a serious lack of common sense on the part of those setting the policy. Too many sex/abuse scandals involving trusted organizations and kids, not to mention the potential for injuries or medical issues for me to give a school owner a free pass on that.

Anyone remember those well toned and conditioned kids that were on the news for dying on the football or soccor field due to some unexplainable medical phenomenon? Do you really want mom and dad to be able to say, in court, that you barred them, not only from entry, but from even watching through a one way glass? And now their baby is dead. And your school is being carved up and served to the grieved parents and their lawyers.

Sorry, but as far as the public is concerned, MA class falls under the heading of sports, and parents watching their kids' games and practices is the norm. Imagine a high school telling mom and dad to stay home from a play off game; the school would be in court faster than a ZR1 runs the quarter mile and the person who issued the statement would be thrown under the bus for damage control.

We talk about being aware of the the laws that govern self defense and about situational awareness. Any school owner who would set such a policy shows a lack of situational awareness and a serious lack of understanding of how the law could ruin them if alegations were ever made, say by a disgruntled student or parent. I was an assistant teacher at a Catholic church school of religion. One of the policies that the school of religion had in place was that no adult could be alone with a child if at all avoidable, and the door was to be left open at all times. I'm pretty sure that public schools have similar policies in place.

Pretty much every organization that works with children has similar policies in place to protect themselves from legal problems and from any appearance of impropriety. If the school staff is willing to open themselves up to potential problems in an age where sex abuse scandals are common and organizations involved are forced to pay out in the millions, then they obviously have no concept of self defense and are seriously lacking in common sense, and are, in my opinion, unqualified to be running an MA school, particularly one that has childrens classes.

 

[terryl965]

All I can say is this WOW just WOW...... people can get really upset over BS line over BS lines.

 

[miguksaram]

If everyone is going to get worked up on some kid and his black belt...please read this first http://www.theonion.com/articles/karate-lessons-give-child-selfconfidence-to-quit-k,2297/

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

If everyone is going to get worked up on some kid and his black belt...please read this first http://www.theonion.com/articles/karate-lessons-give-child-selfconfidence-to-quit-k,2297/

I read through here and I haven't seen anyone really getting worked up over a kid getting a belt.

I have seen some fairly strong opinions on the lack of common sense in testing policy that is closed door and prohibits parental observation/attendance due to the serious potential for abuse and legal troubles in such a setting, however.

Nothing in the article you linked touched on that, though.

 

[miguksaram]

Check out the source of the article and you will understand that it was done in humor.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Okay I want to start with a disclaimer, I do not want this to turn into a is he too young discussion. I have read the posts and I know how some of you feel about kids as BBs. In his school they do allow kids as young as 7-8 to test for BB so that is just the way it is there (Although I am beginning to think they should raise the age).

Sorry, but that debate must permeate each and every thread in the TKD section, no matter how unrelated.

That being said here is what I need input on. My son has been taking TKD for 3.5 yrs and he is 8. He is slated to go up for review board this Sat the 10th. The review board at his school starts at 9:30am on a Sat and they black out the windows and no one is allowed in even parents. The students bring a lunch and it lasts 5-8 hrs depending on the number of students. After the review board (if they pass) they get ready for the Black Belt Show. That will be June 1st. From March 10th to June 1st the students must attend 2-3 mandatory candidate workouts a week along with their normal training. They are allowed only 1 excused absence and if they are sick for 2 weeks they are no longer in the show meaning they can no longer get their Black Belt. They must wait until next years show.

I think that a five to eight hour test is a bit much. If you can't figure out if the kid is ready after at least a year or two of teaching them and an hour to test them, then you'll never figure it out. What goes on for five to eight hours?

Here is my issue, my son is an emotional kid (he gets it from me) if he gets frustrated he cries. He does not quit and he will keep going through the tears but that is just his personality. Way back in Nov. before the Review Board stuff started I approached the owners of the school and asked them straight up if my son was ready to go up for BB. I made it clear that I was fine with him waiting another year (they only do it once a year). They said he was ready and they would make sure he was ready and he would do fine. Now I have no idea what goes on at Review Board because it is a big secret and no one is allowed to talk about it so I was relying on their knowledge of what goes on to determine if my son was ready. Well we are now less than a week from Review Board and my son has had private lessons, done all the prep work, attended 22 classes in Feb. alone just to get ready and the owner comes to him and tells him he may not allow him to go up for Review Board. I spoke with the owner last night and he said he is physically and mentally ready just not emotionally ready. He says he will probably cry and quit during review board and if he quits he is done. Is it common to be so hard on the kids that they quit during review board? He says he has even had an adult quit! It sounds more like a college hazing to me? Is this the norm for a BB test? If my son does not go up he will be crushed and humiliated. I feel that he is the same kid he was in Nov. and if they thought he was ready then he should be ready now. If they would have said then he was not ready I was fine with that but telling a child 4 days before review board after they have worked their rear off to get ready is just not right. I have gotten out of some of the parents whose kids went up at a young age that their kids said it was the worst day of their lives and came home crying. Is this really what getting your black belt is supposed to be about? He has worked so hard I hate to just pull him out and be done. This is the one thing we have found so far that he really enjoys.

When kids start crying due to frustration, it puts the adults into the position of having to interpret the crying. Since he isn't their kid, you really can't expect them to just pass it off as an emotional response to frustration. They may also feel (and arguably correctly) that if you cry at a first dan test because you're frustrated, then you probably aren't ready for the grade, at least as they define it.

On the other hand, if you run an eight year old for five to eight hours straight, you're lucky if he doesn't pass out. Kids that age get tired in the middle of the day and tired little kids tend to act out in ways that adults do not, such as crying over being frustrated.

Of course, they probably aren't running them for five to eight hours straight, but since they won't tell you what goes on, and since you can't watch, it could anything.

I guess my question is, is this the norm and should the BB test be so awful that it is the worst day of a kids life? If so we may just have to be done with the arts. Just FYI- I also do TKD but started after my son so he is up for BB before me.

Thanks for any input you may have.
-Kate

The test should be a challenge to the testor. It should challenge their abilities and demonstrate their proficiency. I suspect that the lengthy test is meant to test the testor's mettle and composure as much as it is meant to test their proficiency, though I feel that that can be done in two hours or less.

If they make it into some kind of ordeal and act like they're all 'old school/hard core/whatever,' then they're full of it. Hard core schools don't put black belts on eight year olds, and any school that does isn't hard core.

Which is fine; hard core doesn't equate to better. But it is indicative of adult and older teen males who like a 'tough' workout, not to a chidrens program.

 

[puunui]

Sorry, but that debate must permeate each and every thread in the TKD section, no matter how unrelated.

That and the lack of face punching in taekwondo competition, as well as the ineffectiveness of taekwondo in self defense.