Dealing with a school bully

[MBuzzy]

As someone who was a target of a great many people for almost 3 years....I can say that the physical part isn't necessarily all of it. My treatment in middle school was the reason that I got involved in martial arts, because everyone was bigger, stronger and took pleasure in beating on me.

My problem was, once the school administration found out about the physical violence and threatened punishment on the bullies, they turned to more covert methods. Personally, I would have RATHER been beaten on or even had the chance to fight back. The worst part about this situation is that if your son doesn't show in some way that he will not stand for it, once the bullies see that they won't get away with it, there is a chance that they will go to psychological torture. Which, honestly is much worse. THAT is what makes Columbines. Not the physical abuse, but the mental abuse and picking on. Especially if the bully recruits bully friends to compound the behavior.

Just something to think about....In my opinion, this is what you should really worry about. You can block a punch, but you can't block a constant barrage of people's insults. To a kid, that can cause serious issues.

Either way, I would be in the school board meeting or in the Principle's office without delay to discuss the problem further.

 

[MA-Caver]

As someone who was a target of a great many people for almost 3 years....I can say that the physical part isn't necessarily all of it. My treatment in middle school was the reason that I got involved in martial arts, because everyone was bigger, stronger and took pleasure in beating on me.

My problem was, once the school administration found out about the physical violence and threatened punishment on the bullies, they turned to more covert methods. Personally, I would have RATHER been beaten on or even had the chance to fight back. The worst part about this situation is that if your son doesn't show in some way that he will not stand for it, once the bullies see that they won't get away with it, there is a chance that they will go to psychological torture. Which, honestly is much worse. THAT is what makes Columbines. Not the physical abuse, but the mental abuse and picking on. Especially if the bully recruits bully friends to compound the behavior.

Just something to think about....In my opinion, this is what you should really worry about. You can block a punch, but you can't block a constant barrage of people's insults. To a kid, that can cause serious issues.

Agree with ya there Buzzy, I had the same crap through late elementary through late high-school of not only being physically picked on but being teased about something or another.
School is a place to learn but it's also a place to find your place in this life and learn how to MAKE your place in this life better as well. I right now don't take crap from anyone anymore and I learned how to do that during high-school when that thing inside of me said ENOUGH!
Started learning MA and started standing up for myself. If I had some social life's crisis learning period interfering namby pamby attorney trying to keep me from fighting back then I'd still be a wuss to this day.

 

[shesulsa]

I will say it takes courage ... steelies, even ... to allow oneself to get beat on and NOT respond in kind. It's a conflicting feeling, knowing that your kid can take care of the threat, can even harm the other kid yet made the careful, conscious choice to take punches.

First, he did absolutely the right thing by getting the administrators involved - not once, but TWICE, without his own violent response. Hopefully these actions have invested faith in them that they trust he will do what he must.

Then, you will have to discuss what he "must" do in various situations ... as it's right for you.

My youngest broke up a fight between two kids - one child was on the ground about to get his stomach jumped on by a much larger child. My son pushed him away, that child wound up falling and hitting his head on the ground, thus my son was written up.

I published a letter to the principal and the board stating that I consider it my son's civic duty to protect people who are clearly being victimized, especially when the adult on duty was nowhere to be found at the time.

We talk about it often - the rules for my kids from me:

• don't break up a fight unless you feel you simply HAVE to in order to save another from serious injury
• NEVER break up a fight involving a weapon,
• report every physical conflict seen or experienced
• NEVER lie about the events, even if you screwed up
• if you can block and lock your way through a fight and never have to strike, do it
• if a weapon is involved, RUN to the nearest adult
• make sure you HAVE to strike before you do

Only under these parameters will I ever defend my kids' actions in a fight. The administrators for the schools my kids attend ALL know this and they know my kids have training. They also know I will be right in line to be sure they pay for any blatantly broken rules.

I don't believe in zero tolerance. It produces a society of people who will not report violent crime - walk right by it as it's happening, look the other way and never report it. Of course we do this while our government whittles away at our rights and ... walk right by as it's happening, look the other say and never do anything about it.



You have to make this decision with your family, decide on how far you'll go to defend your children and figure what's right for them.

Good luck and ... please bow to your son for me. :asian:

 

[Jade Tigress]

As someone who was a target of a great many people for almost 3 years....I can say that the physical part isn't necessarily all of it. My treatment in middle school was the reason that I got involved in martial arts, because everyone was bigger, stronger and took pleasure in beating on me.

My problem was, once the school administration found out about the physical violence and threatened punishment on the bullies, they turned to more covert methods. Personally, I would have RATHER been beaten on or even had the chance to fight back. The worst part about this situation is that if your son doesn't show in some way that he will not stand for it, once the bullies see that they won't get away with it, there is a chance that they will go to psychological torture. Which, honestly is much worse. THAT is what makes Columbines. Not the physical abuse, but the mental abuse and picking on. Especially if the bully recruits bully friends to compound the behavior.

Just something to think about....In my opinion, this is what you should really worry about. You can block a punch, but you can't block a constant barrage of people's insults. To a kid, that can cause serious issues.

Either way, I would be in the school board meeting or in the Principle's office without delay to discuss the problem further.

This is so true. Bullies don't stop bullying because they get in trouble by the school. They just turn to more covert methods. In the types of bullying I've witnessed, even right from the start, they have resorted to emotional bullying at the times they cannot physically bully, and the unfortunate victim endures both.

When they become more covert they turn not only to upping the emotional torture, but to *little* things such as tripping, *accidentally* knocking objects off a desk, etc. I've never seen getting in trouble with the school stop a bully. The only thing I've ever seen stop a bully is when the victim refuses to be victimized anymore. Bullies are cowards, they look for *weak* victims. If someone is no longer perceived as weak, they look for an easier target.

I absolutely hate bullies.

We talk about it often - the rules for my kids from me:

• don't break up a fight unless you feel you simply HAVE to in order to save another from serious injury
• NEVER break up a fight involving a weapon,
• report every physical conflict seen or experienced
• NEVER lie about the events, even if you screwed up
• if you can block and lock your way through a fight and never have to strike, do it
• if a weapon is involved, RUN to the nearest adult
• make sure you HAVE to strike before you do

Only under these parameters will I ever defend my kids' actions in a fight. The administrators for the schools my kids attend ALL know this and they know my kids have training. They also know I will be right in line to be sure they pay for any blatantly broken rules.

I don't believe in zero tolerance. It produces a society of people who will not report violent crime - walk right by it as it's happening, look the other way and never report it. Of course we do this while our government whittles away at our rights and ... walk right by as it's happening, look the other say and never do anything about it.

This is a perfect Code of Conduct (to steal from another thread) on dealing with violent situations. Usually, if a child is reported to his parents as a bully, the parent unwaveringly defends the child. If one of my kids was ever reported to me as such, you can bet your sweet *** there'd be hell to pay for that kid. I will never defend my children against a wrong act they've committed. They'll have to pay the price for the wrong action. I will defend their right to always reasonably protect themselves.

When my son was dealing with bullies, he simply gave it back to them. He didn't seek them out and bully back, mind you. But if he got shoved, he shoved back. If he was called a name, he slung one back. If he was *covertly* tripped in the hall to laughter, next time that bully walked past he stuck his foot out. The bully remembered it. My son is no longer bullied.

He told me all about it and asked if he could defend himself. He was also training Kung Fu at the time, and he spoke with his instructor about it as well.

I went the route of teachers first. But as was said, getting in trouble at school only turns bullies to more covert methods, and I will give the school and his teachers alot of credit for doing what could about it. But it really wasn't until my son started defending himself that it actually stopped altogether.

 

[granfire]

Cudos to the kid for taking the hit - this time.

This crazy world we live in, things are no longer as they were when we were kids...so you had a fight on the play ground, so what! These days you have to worry about repercussions, either from the other party, possibly involving weapons, or the law.

Couple anecdotes...
can't remember who told me the story of the smallish kid being bullied. he told the teachers etc several times, nothing, until he got cornered in the gym.

See, he was a Black Belt of something or other, and he layed his 3 attackers out flat, breaking one arm in the process. Initially he did get into trouble...but the obvious failure of the teachers proofed he was in the right.

On another note, a Lady I know told me how when she was being picked on by a group of girls she applied her dad's advice: Jump on the biggest one in the group (yeah, the days kids could be kids). She lost big time, got busted up some, but had if not the respect so the reputation of being crazy and not to be messed with.

I guess - and hoping I won't have to deal with this in reality - taking one hit is ok...the second time around there should be the appropriate answer...and should a suspension follow, that would be one I'd celebrate with my kid! he, too is a BB, but a lover, not a fighter...(then again, I mioght be in trouble for beating up neglectful teachers....NOBODY but me gets to whip my child! )

 

[Mr G]

I cannot second guess your son's choice to avoid the fight, I wasn't there. He could foresee both good and bad results from either options, and he choose not to fight.

Congratulations on having a son who has learned wisdom along with his TKD.

I need to have a conversation with my kids....

 

[dortiz]

I still have some concerns here.
Your son knows this kid got in trouble because of him. He got cornered caught etc. Then hit pushed and hit.
First awareness. He needs to know when stuff is going down. Second, I would be worried. If policy over self preservation kicks in when attacked then by gosh at 13 you have created the perfect warrior. Kudos.
My concern is that its sounds good afterwards but truth is he took a beating. He got caught, got scared and got hit. You say, stood there with his hands down. No one in this world is going to punish someone for blocking.
I would hope that in his TKD training there is some basic self defense, If his TKD school does not offer it then find one that does.
Next time he needs to push the defenders mass to the left and or right and kick him in the shin.
Truth be told the principal is probably not a dummy. If he finds the bully in any kind of altercation with him its clearly retrubution and he knows it.

 

[shesulsa]

Well I think the next step is the most crucial, and I think something the OP will have to decide for himself, his child and his family.

There's no doubt the bully will see your son as the one who gets him in trouble all the time and will likely target him again ... THEN what? Again - that has to come from you.

*I* hope you encourage your boy to be aware, avoid, block if he has to and defend himself as he has to ... and I would prepare the administration at the school for this possibility.

Keep us posted please.

 

[jim777]

I think your son has a great deal of self control, and that is awesome! He sounds like a great young man. I also agree with those who say he should be blocking on the next go round, should that come.

Another thing I wanted to mention here, is just in regards to the nature of bullies. If Oprah has taught us anything , it's that 95% of the bullies who aren't simply sociopathic pick on kids they assume are weak. I think if a friend of your son discretely passed the word to a friend of the bully that said bully is playing with dynamite in this situation, and the next go round will not end so well for him, the issue might disappear altogether. Bullies don't want to test their mettle; they don't like losses on their records (as it were). They certainly don't want to pick on kids they know can lay them out. It might

Just a thought...

 

[jim777]

duplicate post, sorry!

 

[Bigshadow]

but the boy showed restraint and took the hits.

Yes, he showed discipline and restraint. But that discipline and restraint is best represented when he doesn't attack someone because they were talking smack. IMO, it is different when it comes to self defense. IMO, in those moments, the discipline and restraint is defending one's self and stopping at the appropriate time and be willing to dole out more should the attack begin again.

Think about this for a moment. He's a red belt in TKD... he's most likely strong enough and fit enough to take hits from someone who isn't... only the bully didn't know it. Sort of compare it to a wolf biting on a wool covered sheepdog. Just too stupid to realize what might be hiding under that "sheep's clothing."

IMO, while that sounds noble, is that truly the lesson we want to teach our kids? What is the real lesson there. Just because the kid has the capacity to inflict major damage doesn't mean he should just take the hit, just because it wasn't lethal. To me it just means, he doesn't give the bully everything he has. It isn't a boolean situation. There is an escalation of force (that is restraint and discipline) in situations like that. Yes, people should be benevolent and humble, but when faced with violence, kids have every right to protect themselves as adults.

Lastly, it is the goal or intent that defines a violent act as moral or not. The bully's intent was immoral and if the kid had defended himself, his actions would have been moral. If the kid had decided to "teach" the bully a lesson, then it would have been immoral. The line that separates moral and immoral in these situations is where it takes discipline and restraint to not cross.

 

[tellner]

Kacey, I don't know that I'd even recommend blocking. It only delays defeat, and an ineffective, half-hearted defense is worse than nothing in the psychological part of the fight. Besides, the school administrators won't treat him any better. He still fought. And he used deadly martial arts techniques.

Walk or talk, run or gun. There aren't any other realistic choices when he's surrounded and there is nobody to help. And by gun I mean "do whatever it takes to be able to walk away safely", not "shoot them". I really wish I didn't need to make that last point clear.

Sooner or later one of a few things will happen. His tormentors will find a different target. They will leave the school. He will leave the school. They will provoke him in such a way as to get him into trouble. Or they will beat the bright green hell out of him. The first two are nice in a fantasy world. The third is not a solution. The fourth is entirely possible. The fifth is more likely. If it comes to that he has to be able to do what it takes to avoid injury and to do it decisively.

At that point there needs to be a paper trail. There need to be records. His family's lawyer must be able to use phrases like "due care and diligence", "knew or should have known", "previously made aware on several occasions" and "liability for damages caused by negligence". The suggestions here and in the related thread about putting the school administration on notice are good ones. But they will not stop the attacks. They will only delay them.

 

[neoinarien]

Not sure if someone said this already, but two points.

1. If my son did that and got suspended, I would treat him on his suspension day to movie, etc, because he didn't do anything wrong and he needs to know that it is the school that is wrong.

2. Has there been any litigation/lawsuits either regionally or nationally about the zero tolerance policy? I feel like it's a tinder box just waiting to be lit otherwise.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

From my days in school if you let someone bully you word will get around and you will be bullied by others. I recall teachers egging on fights and watching the fight happen. If you stand up to a bully and loose you will be seen to have heart and get respect. But I grew up in a different area than you so your miles will vary.

 

[Kacey]

Kacey, I don't know that I'd even recommend blocking. It only delays defeat, and an ineffective, half-hearted defense is worse than nothing in the psychological part of the fight. Besides, the school administrators won't treat him any better. He still fought. And he used deadly martial arts techniques.

You might not recommend it - but I have students who have done so successfully. When it was proven (by the school's own records) that attacks had occurred before, and the school had not prevented further bullying, the students in question were cleared. Several of the fights were interrupted by staff or other students while my students were still blocking; there were witnesses to the fact that they only blocked, never attacked, and there was no negative outcome for them.

For the one student who was forced to escalate to counter attacks (the other boy attempted to put a pencil through his eye), he was able to prove that he attempted first only to prevent injury to himself - I intensely dislike the need to have cameras in schools, but in this particular instance, it supported my student's statement that he punched the other student in the stomach because after blocking several exchanges, the other student escalated. The camera also showed that, as soon as my student was no longer being attacked, he left - he did not batter the other student.

The key is, I think, to teach students to think, to evaluate a situation, and to avoid confrontation whenever such avoidance is feasible. There is no one "right" answer because every situation is different, as is each student's training, personality, tolerance, etc.

 

[MBuzzy]

My concern is that its sounds good afterwards but truth is he took a beating. He got caught, got scared and got hit. You say, stood there with his hands down. No one in this world is going to punish someone for blocking.
...
Truth be told the principal is probably not a dummy. If he finds the bully in any kind of altercation with him its clearly retrubution and he knows it.

It is TRULY unfortunate, but I don't believe that this is true anymore. The rules that have been put into place no longer allow for common sense. It is very possible that both students would be punished. Now, I don't buy the whole "your permanent record" crap. No one will really ever look at this imaginary file. Colleges look at grades and involvement, that's about it. UNTIL the kid goes on a shooting spree, then everything will come to light. And unfortunately, a lot of the kids that do go on shooting sprees start as the kid that got beat up or picked on a lot.

Now, I don't agree with the rules...the zero tolerance policies, expelled for bringing aspirin, teachers can't punish students, etc etc etc...BUT, I do see why they are there and where they came from. I mean, we sit here and talk about how stupid they are and how the world is losing common sense, but I look at it from a different perspective. The people who made these rules, like the principal in question, were not idiots. They wanted the best for the kids and the school as much as anyone else. NO ONE wakes up in the morning and says "I'm going to make a really stupid decision today." But they happen, because they are forced into the situation. Dumb rules like that happen over time, after many iterations....or a knee jerk after a MAJOR incident. Either way, they are done to protect someone, be it the kids or the administrators; and I firmly believe that both groups need and deserve protection.

Unfortunately, I have been in situations where I have made a rule or stupid policy and implemented it on my people. While I saying it or writing it, the whole time I am thinking to myself how incredibly stupid it is....and how sad it is that it had to come to this...to the point where I had no other choice. And to the point where myself and my senior NCOs have come to an agreement on this anti common sense rule. But I can feel for the people that make them.

So back to topic....the zero tolerance policy was created for a reason...liability. It is stupid and I don't agree with it, but its there for a reason. It is very easy in situations like this for a block to turn into a hit and then the stories get changed...next thing you know the kid blocking is being expelled for hitting the other kid, who started it. I know that's an extreme example....but not blocking, not fighting back is the only way to BE SURE that the victim was not the agressor is it was one-sided. In a way, I understand the policy....and in a way, I can see where a child's martial arts training could count AGAINST them if things got out of hand.
As Tellner said, it all comes down to what the lawyers can say and unfortunately, and so so sadly...those are the terms that you have to think of. It is cold and hard to think about it this way, but the question that you have to ask at some point is "What if MY KID is the one that goes to school and starts shooting." Because no one thinks their kid is the one that's going to do it....but they still do.

It is a sad state of affairs, but honestly, we have made it this way.

 

[tellner]

It's all percentages. If you really think the kid can block well enough, long enough so that he can stop them until they get tired of hitting him or someone comes and intervenes it might work. Otherwise it won't do anything in the long run. I'm pretty good at blocking and wouldn't fancy my chances.

i've heard of jump-spinning back kicks working in real life. It wouldn't be a betting man's choice.

As for proving they were the ones? That's why a paper trail is important. If it's in place then there's room for "reasonable force". If it isn't there isn't. If suspensions haven't stopped the problem the chance that another one will deter is very very slim.

The question is how much danger the young man really believes he's in. A lesser response will not do if the risk of real injury is significant. If it's not, then more restraint is a good thing.

But he has to be prepared to escalate if walking, talking, running and blocking do not work.

 

[MBuzzy]

You might not recommend it - but I have students who have done so successfully. When it was proven (by the school's own records) that attacks had occurred before, and the school had not prevented further bullying, the students in question were cleared. Several of the fights were interrupted by staff or other students while my students were still blocking; there were witnesses to the fact that they only blocked, never attacked, and there was no negative outcome for them.

For the one student who was forced to escalate to counter attacks (the other boy attempted to put a pencil through his eye), he was able to prove that he attempted first only to prevent injury to himself - I intensely dislike the need to have cameras in schools, but in this particular instance, it supported my student's statement that he punched the other student in the stomach because after blocking several exchanges, the other student escalated. The camera also showed that, as soon as my student was no longer being attacked, he left - he did not batter the other student.

The key is, I think, to teach students to think, to evaluate a situation, and to avoid confrontation whenever such avoidance is feasible. There is no one "right" answer because every situation is different, as is each student's training, personality, tolerance, etc.

Kacey, it is refreshing that common sense still can rule in schools....and I'm glad that so many martial arts trained students are not only skilled enough, but most importantly, mature enough to handle these situations in the right way. I know many grown adults that would snap and beat their aggressor to a pulp.

 

[dortiz]

So.... here is where I am confused. The son is being stoic and saving himself from zero tolerance. The other kid got caught in a fight before (the son told on him). Once again got caught (hitting son )and since it was not mentioned I bet is still there.
I am going to stick with a limited self defense that keeps the bully off you. Hopefully you dont get caught but if you do it will probably end up like the bullies first fight.

 

[FieldDiscipline]

It's all percentages. If you really think the kid can block well enough, long enough so that he can stop them until they get tired of hitting him or someone comes and intervenes it might work. Otherwise it won't do anything in the long run. I'm pretty good at blocking and wouldn't fancy my chances.

i've heard of jump-spinning back kicks working in real life. It wouldn't be a betting man's choice.

As for proving they were the ones? That's why a paper trail is important. If it's in place then there's room for "reasonable force". If it isn't there isn't. If suspensions haven't stopped the problem the chance that another one will deter is very very slim.

The question is how much danger the young man really believes he's in. A lesser response will not do if the risk of real injury is significant. If it's not, then more restraint is a good thing.

But he has to be prepared to escalate if walking, talking, running and blocking do not work.

I agree with all of the above.