Should getting a Black Belt be this stressful?

[ATC]

So why not give kids black belts.

You never heard me say that kids should not have a black belt.

 

[Gorilla]

I disagree there is no way an 8 year old can keep up with a normal healthy late 20 thru mid 40's adult. I coach my son in football 6 thru 8 year olds and im no gym freak or fitness god in fact other then my Karate classes 3 to 4 times a week I dont exercise at all anymore but I can out hustle and out work every kid on that team, all our coaches can. I think it depends on the age of the child. 15 -17 years olds then yes there are some that can out work me and alot of adults but in the age this thread was talking about if you cant out work an 8 year old you may need to seek medical help.

Both my kids and ATC's kids regularly work out with adults. Not just adults but elite athletes and have been doing since 8 years old. They recently worked out with 4 world ranked fighters and three Olympians not at a seminar but regular 2 hour work outs (2 weeks) for the US OPEN. A adult who works out 2 or 3 times a week would not be able to keep up with Kym or Charlie. My kids work out 4 hour per day 6 days a week sometimes 7. In the summer is is six hours per day in the summer.

Btw the Morrocan National team train with my kids every time they are in Las Vegas. There Karate instructor who is an elite athlete has a hard time keeping up with them in a TKD work out.

 

[ATC]

I disagree there is no way an 8 year old can keep up with a normal healthy late 20 thru mid 40's adult. I coach my son in football 6 thru 8 year olds and im no gym freak or fitness god in fact other then my Karate classes 3 to 4 times a week I dont exercise at all anymore but I can out hustle and out work every kid on that team, all our coaches can. I think it depends on the age of the child. 15 -17 years olds then yes there are some that can out work me and alot of adults but in the age this thread was talking about if you cant out work an 8 year old you may need to seek medical help.

Just like anything, it depends on the 8 year old and the adult. Yes there are adults that can out work 8 year olds, just as there are 8 year olds that can out work adults. Many of todays kids and adults are lazy. But on average most kids have far more stamina then adults. Now those adults that workout are above the curve and those kids that workout are above the curve. Most people in the dojang don't push (kids or adults).

My kids at 8 years old were doing reps of 100 for 5 sets of situps as a cool down to their workout. Their workouts on the weekends were 4 to 6 hours long. Their daily workouts were 2 hours long. Both are national champs multiple times over. Both are US. Open champs. My son just won the US Open for his age group. Two weeks before the US Open my son competed as a tune up and fought and beat the current US Open 14-17 Silver (2nd place) medalist, my son is 12.

It all depends on the kid. I will agree that 8 years old on average should never keep up with young adults in their prime (20's) but at 30+ it starts to get pretty hard for that adult to keep his stamina let alone recover from a hard workout. Kids bounce back and are ready for more pretty much as soon as the training stops.

Adults after a good workout go rest. Kids after a good workout go play.

 

[ballen0351]

That was just a start. I noticed you didn't make any comments on jump kicks. And you mentioned you do karate. I don't know how that compares to taekwondo competition training, which is where the differences become readily apparent.

I noticed you didnt comment on stamina, strength, hand and eye coordination, mental capasity, balance, body control,

I dont do jump kicks in my style so I cant comment on them. I can try one real quick ill need to google it to see what they look like but I can jump and I can kick so I assume I can do both together.

Im not saying kids cant to it and do it well but your comment that they are better in MOST areas I disagree with.

 

[ballen0351]

Both my kids and ATC's kids regularly work out with adults. Not just adults but elite athletes and have been doing since 8 years old. They recently worked out with 4 world ranked fighters and three Olympians not at a seminar but regular 2 hour work outs (2 weeks) for the US OPEN. A adult who works out 2 or 3 times a week would not be able to keep up with Kym or Charlie. My kids work out 4 hour per day 6 days a week sometimes 7. In the summer is is six hours per day in the summer.

Btw the Morrocan National team train with my kids every time they are in Las Vegas. There Karate instructor who is an elite athlete has a hard time keeping up with them in a TKD work out.

Thats great we are not talking about the exceptions here we are talking normal kids and normal adults there are exceptions to EVERY rule as your kids appear to be. The post said kids were better then adults in most areas and in the norm thats false.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Both my kids and ATC's kids regularly work out with adults. Not just adults but elite athletes and have been doing since 8 years old. They recently worked out with 4 world ranked fighters and three Olympians not at a seminar but regular 2 hour work outs (2 weeks) for the US OPEN. A adult who works out 2 or 3 times a week would not be able to keep up with Kym or Charlie. My kids work out 4 hour per day 6 days a week sometimes 7. In the summer is is six hours per day in the summer.

Btw the Morrocan National team train with my kids every time they are in Las Vegas. There Karate instructor who is an elite athlete has a hard time keeping up with them in a TKD work out.

There are always going to be 'elite' kids, you just have to look at the footage of tiger woods as a small boy playing golf. they are, however, the exception, not the rule. Go to a random tkd/karate/kung fu club and watch the kids train compared to adults and they are miles behind.

 

[jks9199]

Actually, I think it is the other way around for most areas except perhaps breaking. Kids are more flexible, their natural stamina and wind is better, etc. At least how it is dividing up in taekwondo classes, where kids are kids and adults are parents of kids. With adults, once past 35 or so, the ability level generally goes down, while injuries, etc. tend to go up.

If the test were mere physicality -- yep, in many ways a child is more capable than an adult. I just spent the afternoon chasing a 3 year old; believe me, I know that! But an 8 year old doesn't have an adult level of concentration, a grown man's strength or coordination, and so on.

A couple of general further notes while I'm writing. As I've said -- there are different types of tests, that reflect both different meanings of black belt, and different philosophies of the schools or organizations. Some tests are true trials; some are mere recognition & acknowledgement. Some view the first level of black belt as a major accomplishment; some just say it means you're finally ready to start learning... and in some, it just means you've hung around and people kind of like you. Sometimes it's a teaching credential; sometimes it's not. That all shapes the testing process -- as well as who can be a black belt.

My concern in the original post is simple: what seems to be an absolute black out, even to the parents of young children, about the test. They refuse to let the parents watch. They refuse to tell the parents what the test involves, other than that it is so stressful that they've made adults cry and quit. They are apparently pretty uncommunicative about the whole thing. That's a concern. You can have closed, private testing for adults, and it doesn't really bother me. That's their business, and the adults can choose to do it or not. But 8 year old kids? That secrecy worries me. May be nothing wrong... but I find it worrisome.

 

[puunui]

Thats great we are not talking about the exceptions here we are talking normal kids and normal adults there are exceptions to EVERY rule as your kids appear to be. The post said kids were better then adults in most areas and in the norm thats false.

Taking average kids and average adults in a dojang of similar rank and experience, I think that kids fare better than adults in most areas, in taekwondo, which is the area this discussion is in. Perhaps it is different in karate, I don't know.

 

[puunui]

If the test were mere physicality -- yep, in many ways a child is more capable than an adult. I just spent the afternoon chasing a 3 year old; believe me, I know that! But an 8 year old doesn't have an adult level of concentration, a grown man's strength or coordination, and so on.

I would disagree with you on the coordination and level of concentration. If the students are not concentrating or not coordinated, then it is the teacher's job to get them to concentrate or be coordinated. Like Mr. Miyagi said, we don't blame the student, we blame the instructor. Instructors take all the blame; students take all the credit. Strength is a different matter. Of course a child won't have a "grown man's strength", but then neither will a lot of females or older adults. I frankly think that is a red herring, the strength issue.

My concern in the original post is simple: what seems to be an absolute black out, even to the parents of young children, about the test. They refuse to let the parents watch. They refuse to tell the parents what the test involves, other than that it is so stressful that they've made adults cry and quit. They are apparently pretty uncommunicative about the whole thing. That's a concern. You can have closed, private testing for adults, and it doesn't really bother me. That's their business, and the adults can choose to do it or not. But 8 year old kids? That secrecy worries me. May be nothing wrong... but I find it worrisome.

On that issue, I personally would allow parents to watch and in fact welcome them to do so, unless they become disruptive, at which point they are no longer welcome. Personally, I enjoy hearing constructive feedback from parents, who I consider an essential part of the process. In order to succeed, a student needs parental support. Without that, people rarely go anywhere, including the martial arts. Or should I say, having parental support makes everything that much easier. So of course they can watch.

 

[puunui]

You never heard me say that kids should not have a black belt.

I was addressing that to the group, not you specifically. I know you are not against child earning black belts. Your kids have black belts.

 

[puunui]

Btw the Morrocan National team train with my kids every time they are in Las Vegas. There Karate instructor who is an elite athlete has a hard time keeping up with them in a TKD work out.

Non-taekwondo practitioners or even taekwondo practitioners who do not train using the modern training methods have a hard time understanding what those modern training methods entail.

 

[ballen0351]

Non-taekwondo practitioners or even taekwondo practitioners who do not train using the modern training methods have a hard time understanding what those modern training methods entail.

Oh silly me I didnt realize that Human Physiology was suspended when it came to Modern Taekwondo training methods. Theres a reason why kids are not treated as adults because physically, emotionally, bio-mechanically, maturity they are different they are less advanced then a normal adult human in the prime of his life its why we call it the Prime of your life your the best you have every been and ever will be. I know there are exceptions to every rule like your kids. But if you think you can go into any Taekwondo school and 8 year old will be just as good as a normal healthy 32 year old I say your wrong. I have years of coaching kids in Football, Basketball, Base Ball, and soccer in every age group from 4 years old and up to base my opinion and you cant tell me that the same limits on basic human functions change just because the same kid walks off the field and into a Taekwondo school.
Like I said there are always going to be some kids that are better just like there will be some adults that are worse but taking the Norms from both I dont agree with you.

 

[puunui]

Oh silly me I didnt realize that Human Physiology was suspended when it came to Modern Taekwondo training methods. Theres a reason why kids are not treated as adults because physically, emotionally, bio-mechanically, maturity they are different they are less advanced then a normal adult human in the prime of his life its why we call it the Prime of your life your the best you have every been and ever will be.

Maybe you don't treat kids the same as adults.... As for prime of one's life, I listen to a lot of people, and I get the impression that the prime of their life was when they were kids.

I know there are exceptions to every rule like your kids. But if you think you can go into any Taekwondo school and 8 year old will be just as good as a normal healthy 32 year old I say your wrong. I have years of coaching kids in Football, Basketball, Base Ball, and soccer in every age group from 4 years old and up to base my opinion and you cant tell me that the same limits on basic human functions change just because the same kid walks off the field and into a Taekwondo school.

it has nothing to do with exceptions. In my opinion, students rise to the level of their teacher's expectations. Children take to that concept without the sort of mental blocks and hangups that adults often carry around with them.

Like I said there are always going to be some kids that are better just like there will be some adults that are worse but taking the Norms from both I dont agree with you.

No one said you had to agree with me.

 

[msmitht]

Would you pass the student how was just lazily going through the motions in his test, even though, up to that point he has never been that way?

I don't know. I've never been put in that situation. I always make sure that they are ready, both physically and mentally. If they were lazy and not trying I would dismiss them after 2 warnings and continue the exam 4 months later.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Oh silly me I didnt realize that Human Physiology was suspended when it came to Modern Taekwondo training methods. Theres a reason why kids are not treated as adults because physically, emotionally, bio-mechanically, maturity they are different they are less advanced then a normal adult human in the prime of his life its why we call it the Prime of your life your the best you have every been and ever will be. I know there are exceptions to every rule like your kids. But if you think you can go into any Taekwondo school and 8 year old will be just as good as a normal healthy 32 year old I say your wrong. I have years of coaching kids in Football, Basketball, Base Ball, and soccer in every age group from 4 years old and up to base my opinion and you cant tell me that the same limits on basic human functions change just because the same kid walks off the field and into a Taekwondo school.
Like I said there are always going to be some kids that are better just like there will be some adults that are worse but taking the Norms from both I dont agree with you.

You are right. In fact you are so right I cant even see how this can be debated. I was just talking to a friend who is a primary school teacher and tkd student, and he echoed your sentiments exactly. Actually he gave this analogy- set up 6 or 7 cones on a sports field about 2 metres apart. Get a 25 year old and a 7 year old who have both never played soccer or kicked a soccer ball in their life. Demonstrate to both how to dribble the soccer ball through the cones in a snake pattern. Then give each a soccer ball and ask them to try it. You will instantly see the difference between an adult and a child. I can relate to that one as I coached junior soccer and at the end of each session we would have the parents play the kids, most of the parents had never played soccer, most of the kids were into their third or fourth season, the parents win even without any effort at all every time, and soccer requires no physical strength.

 

[Gorilla]

Double post sorry

 

[Gorilla]

Non-taekwondo practitioners or even taekwondo practitioners who do not train using the modern training methods have a hard time understanding what those modern training methods entail.

Let me clarify my kids karate imstructor who is an elite athlete also trains with my kids in Tkd has a hard rime keeping up with the pace of a Tkd work out it is much more aerobic work out than Karate. Our Shotokan coach/trainer is a very big believer in cross training and collaborates with Arlene

The Morrocans are at the cutting edge of TKD Training. Charlie worked with Issam Chernoubi allot it was very enlightening experience. We have been very lucky to work with the number 1 welter weight in the world.

 

[Archtkd]

Let me clarify my kids karate imstructor who is an elite athlete also trains with my kids in Tkd has a hard rime keeping up with the pace of a Tkd work out it is much more aerobic work out than Karate. Our Shotokan coach/trainer is a very big believer in cross training and collaborates with Arlene

The Morrocans are at the cutting edge of TKD Training. Charlie worked with Issam Chernoubi allot it was very enlightening experience. We have been very lucky to work with the number 1 welter weight in the world.

Now I am beginning to understand why those Morroccans are getting so good. I've been puzzling about this with a few folks I know on the Kenya national team.

 

[miguksaram]

I don't know. I've never been put in that situation. I always make sure that they are ready, both physically and mentally. If they were lazy and not trying I would dismiss them after 2 warnings and continue the exam 4 months later.

Ok. Do you look at dismissing them as the same thing as failing them?

 

[hoshindo]

Lets go back to the OP.......
<< He is slated to go up for review board this Sat the 10th. The review board at his school starts at 9:30am on a Sat and they black out the windows and no one is allowed in even parents. The students bring a lunch and it lasts 5-8 hrs depending on the number of students. After the review board (if they pass) they get ready for the Black Belt Show. That will be June 1st. From March 10th to June 1st the students must attend 2-3 mandatory candidate workouts a week along with their normal training. They are allowed only 1 excused absence and if they are sick for 2 weeks they are no longer in the show meaning they can no longer get their Black Belt. They must wait until next years show. >>

This review board... now is this the BB exam and then the child still has to attend so many classes before the he gets the belt.....or.....what happens on June 1st. is this the exam? can parents watch this event?... is that the real BB exam?

Is this sat. the BB exam and they mandate these classes while they send off for a cert.?
Just questions that look like that has not been asked.

Jim