Self defense against people who don't wear masks...

[dvcochran]

No one is assumed from the start that they followed their training/did their job correctly, but no one is (ideally) accused of doing something wrong before the investigation is determined.

Really? This is you work environment? I cannot afford to work with people I do not trust to do their job. I cannot imagine working in an environment where I am guilty until proven innocent. That is not much faith in your fellow man.

 

[dvcochran]

Exactly. That's called accountability. Someone is dead. It seems like the very least we can do is determine it was unavoidable and necessary.

True enough. That is very different from condemning them from jump. One bad apple as they say.

 

[Jaeimseu]

Really? This is you work environment? I cannot afford to work with people I do not trust to do their job. I cannot imagine working in an environment where I am guilty until proven innocent. That is not much faith in your fellow man.

I agree that I wouldn’t want to work somewhere where it’s assumed I messed up. And I also wouldn’t want to work with people if I assumed they would do things wrong. However, if someone lost their life, I’d certainly expect an investigation and not assume the killing was justified automatically.


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[Steve]

True enough. That is very different from condemning them from jump. One bad apple as they say.

and also very different from presuming that the death was justified from the jump. Too many bad apples, as they say.

 

[Steve]

Really? This is you work environment? I cannot afford to work with people I do not trust to do their job. I cannot imagine working in an environment where I am guilty until proven innocent. That is not much faith in your fellow man.

Well it's fine if there is trust. But unfortunately, a significant percentage of the USA does not trust the police to do their job without some degree of direct oversight. In fact there it is fair to say that many police officers have not earned trust, or have even betrayed the trust of the communities in which they serve. I trust a lot of folks, until they demonstrate that it isn't smart to trust them. Trusting folks who haven't earned it is foolish. And when those folks are armed and prone to violence, it can be gravely foolish.

 

[Steve]

I agree that I wouldn’t want to work somewhere where it’s assumed I messed up. And I also wouldn’t want to work with people if I assumed they would do things wrong. However, if someone lost their life, I’d certainly expect an investigation and not assume the killing was justified automatically.


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Exactly, unless we're saying that killing folks is so common among police that it has become unremarkable. Even among cops, killing folks would (I hope) still be a significant and traumatic experience, and an investigation seems like it would (or should) be a matter of common sense.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Really? This is you work environment? I cannot afford to work with people I do not trust to do their job. I cannot imagine working in an environment where I am guilty until proven innocent. That is not much faith in your fellow man.

This is every work environment. When there is a complaint, management is supposed to investigate to determine what is the cause of the complaint. When something goes wrong, management should examine that as well to figure out why. I would be much more concerned if I worked somewhere when, when things go wrong, nothing was done to figure out why.

And I don't understand how investigating everything before coming to a decision is 'guilty until proven innocent'. It's pretty directly not guilty until proven guilty.

 

[dvcochran]

This is every work environment. When there is a complaint, management is supposed to investigate to determine what is the cause of the complaint. When something goes wrong, management should examine that as well to figure out why. I would be much more concerned if I worked somewhere when, when things go wrong, nothing was done to figure out why.

And I don't understand how investigating everything before coming to a decision is 'guilty until proven innocent'. It's pretty directly not guilty until proven guilty.

Absolutely. Business at some employee count level are required to have an HR person and a safety person that are often the same in small companies.
No one is debating that whatever policies were already in place should not take place. It has to as this information benefits everyone, especially the owner.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Absolutely. Business at some employee count level are required to have an HR person and a safety person that are often the same in small companies.
No one is debating that whatever policies were already in place should not take place. It has to as this information benefits everyone, especially the owner.

Then I don't see what the issue is here. That accountability is exactly what's being talked about when we discuss the idea of being neutral when something like a death happens until learning the information. Just as a member of the consumer (which all americans are for american police) rather than the position of HR.

I agree as the consumer, we shouldn't be immediately accusing police officers of doing something wrong when something bad happens (the same way you shouldn't yell at a retail employee of doing something wrong when your coupon isn't scanning), but we also shouldn't automatically assume that everything was done right (again with the coupon, ask for verification that the code is active/expired, and if active someone else looks at it to see if the cashier is doing it right, or there's some hidden requirement for the discount). Obviously a coupon is much lower stakes, but it's the same concept.

 

[drop bear]

Oh yeah, heaven forbid we give an officer enough credit to think they followed their training, the law, and did their job.

If there is a death. There should be an investigation. This is a big difference in our culture to yours a bit. Where you would suggest he did the right thing. We would suggest he did a horrible but neccecary thing.

 

[drop bear]

Exactly. That's called accountability. Someone is dead. It seems like the very least we can do is determine it was unavoidable and necessary.

Yeah there is probably a reason our cops shoot about 3 people a year.

 

[Grenadier]

Admin's Note:

Political discussions aren't allowed here.

If you want to discuss politics, then go to one of the other forums hosted by the Forum Foundry.

Here's one you can use.

US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum


That being said, we tend to be quite generous when it comes to allowing for a bit of topic drift, but some of y'all keep pushing the limits.

I'm generally not going to shut down a thread simply because some political discussion is present, but when it gets hijacked into that territory, it's going to get closed.

Don't test us on this matter.