Self defense against people who don't wear masks...

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

, well no, no card required by law, simply saying your disabled should get you a journey, which is what their policy says, you may , but almost certainly wont have to dispute it with the police. the cards themselves are given out with out any proof of disability being required.

and anyway insisting that the disabled carry cards is its self discriminatory, unless required by law, which it isnt

how will it spoil it for the disabled ? it wont make any difference to them, if lots of people claim to have breathing difficulties

It'll spoil it practically not legally. Because people will claim disability, and bus drivers, restaurant owners, greeters, etc. either won't believe them or won't know the law about it. So you'll end up in an argument with them, possibly getting unfairly removed or not let in to the establishment, if they consistently see people claiming disabilities and doubt it.

Like I said, legally it won't change anything, but you and other disabled people would have to confront them about it and/or escalate it more often than if a card was involved.

 

[jobo]

It'll spoil it practically not legally. Because people will claim disability, and bus drivers, restaurant owners, greeters, etc. either won't believe them or won't know the law about it. So you'll end up in an argument with them, possibly getting unfairly removed or not let in to the establishment, if they consistently see people claiming disabilities and doubt it.

Like I said, legally it won't change anything, but you and other disabled people would have to confront them about it and/or escalate it more often than if a card was involved.

your rather missing the point, there is no requirement on the vender to police it, thats the job of the police. if lots of people are abusing it, then that for the police to sort, though i have no idea how they will prove you dont have breathing difficulties or be claustrophobic

if a vender stops someone with a disability from using a service they are breaking the law, the problem is a lot of disabilities are invisible to the casual observer, a situation where you have to outline your disability to a third party in a public place is the very worse outcome. its far better that a lot of people who a faking get in

as i said such cards are there are allow you to self diagnose yourself as disabled, but you cant insist that all disabled wear a disability badge, that would be just wrong, but if your determined not to wear a mask a badge is available to you

i had a serious fall out with a local college who wouldnt let me use the( far more convenient) disabled entrance because i had cycled there. you cant provided a disability entrance and then say only some disabled people can use it, just because i could easily walk the additional 100 yards. its a disability entrance, i have a disability, LET ME IN

 

[Steve]

your rather missing the point, there is no requirement on the vender to police it, thats the job of the police. if lots of people are abusing it, then that for the police to sort, though i have no idea how they will prove you dont have breathing difficulties or be claustrophobic

if a vender stops someone with a disability from using a service they are breaking the law, the problem is a lot of disabilities are invisible to the casual observer, a situation where you have to outline your disability to a third party in a public place is the very worse outcome. its far better that a lot of people who a faking get in

as i said such cards are there are allow you to self diagnose yourself as disabled, but you cant insist that all disabled wear a disability badge, that would be just wrong, but if your determined not to wear a mask a badge is available to you

i had a serious fall out with a local college who wouldnt let me use the( far more convenient) disabled entrance because i had cycled there. you cant provided a disability entrance and then say only some disabled people can use it, just because i could easily walk the additional 100 yards. its a disability entrance, i have a disability, LET ME IN

Only because I thought you mentioned this in another thread... isn't your disability that you are dyslexic? If I have that wrong, I apologize. I just thought you said that somewhere, so when I read these posts, it seems a little off to me.

 

[jobo]

Only because I thought you mentioned this in another thread... isn't your disability that you are dyslexic? If I have that wrong, I apologize. I just thought you said that somewhere, so when I read these posts, it seems a little off to me.

are you saying dyslexia isnt a disability and shouldnt allow you to use disabled services ?

 

[Steve]

are you saying dyslexia isnt a disability and shouldnt allow you to use disabled services ?

Not at all. I don't know much about it. Can you explain to me how dyslexia prevents you physically from being able to wear a mask or use a standard door? I want to learn more about it.

 

[jobo]

Not at all. I don't know much about it. Can you explain to me how dyslexia prevents you physically from being able to wear a mask or use a standard door? I want to learn more about it.

it doesn't but if the laws says the disabled are exempt then thats it, im exempt.

, having one leg doesnt mean you cant wear a mask either, but my issue is they give me panic attacks, also exempt,as does being forced to walk an extra 100 meters when im late

if they provided a disabled entrance then they cant discriminate over how disabled you have to be to use it, that would be illegal, thats like telling someone they are not black enough to alleged racial discrimination or not religious enough for religious discrimination

 

[Steve]

it doesn't but if the laws says the disabled are exempt then thats it, im exempt.

, having one leg doesnt mean you cant wear a mask either, but my issue is they give me panic attacks, also exempt,as does being forced to walk an extra 100 meters when im late

if they provided a disabled entrance then they cant discriminate over how disabled you have to be to use it, that would be illegal, thats like telling someone they are not black enough to alleged racial discrimination or not religious enough for religious discrimination

Just asking a question. I tend to think about disability related to function. For example, a person who has one leg is clearly disabled, but if that person is a software engineer, the disability may not affect his or her ability to function in that role. Tammy Duckworth is a United States Senator, and lost both of her legs while flying a helicopter in Iraq. She is clearly disabled, but has managed to work at a high level in government, have children, and do many other things that are not affected by her disability. This isn't to say that her disability doesn't limit her; only that there are areas where her disability is not limiting. She can even be seen wearing a mask.

So, in your case, I am curious how dyslexia physically prevents you from wearing a mask. Now you're saying they give you a panic attack. Is that a typical byproduct of dyslexia, or are you saying that in addition to dyslexia, wearing masks give you a panic attack? Are you more prone to panic attacks than anyone else?

You also say that your dyslexia induces a panic attack if you walked an extra 100 meters from the disabled entrance to the general entrance. Is that it's "extra" salient? What I mean is, could you walk 100 meters without issue if it weren't an "extra" 100 meters? Would it be less panic inducing if the disabled access was just simply 100 meters from you?

 

[jobo]

Just asking a question. I tend to think about disability related to function. For example, a person who has one leg is clearly disabled, but if that person is a software engineer, the disability may not affect his or her ability to function in that role. Tammy Duckworth is a United States Senator, and lost both of her legs while flying a helicopter in Iraq. She is clearly disabled, but has managed to work at a high level in government, have children, and do many other things that are not affected by her disability. This isn't to say that her disability doesn't limit her; only that there are areas where her disability is not limiting. She can even be seen wearing a mask.

So, in your case, I am curious how dyslexia physically prevents you from wearing a mask. Now you're saying they give you a panic attack. Is that a typical byproduct of dyslexia, or are you saying that in addition to dyslexia, wearing masks give you a panic attack? Are you more prone to panic attacks than anyone else?

You also say that your dyslexia induces a panic attack if you walked an extra 100 meters from the disabled entrance to the general entrance. Is that it's "extra" salient? What I mean is, could you walk 100 meters without issue if it weren't an "extra" 100 meters? Would it be less panic inducing if the disabled access was just simply 100 meters from you?

id didnt say the dylexia gives me panic attacks, though it can do. i to have braved adversity to carve out a worth while career

i e no idea how many panic attacks other have, just that i suffer from panic attacks.

the disable access is never going to be a 100 m from me when i cycle right up to it.

the point remains it is an acess for people with disabilitirs and i have such so its for me,

 

[Steve]

id didnt say the dylexia gives me panic attacks, though it can do. i to have braved adversity to carve out a worth while career

i e no idea how many panic attacks other have, just that i suffer from panic attacks.

the disable access is never going to be a 100 m from me when i cycle right up to it.

the point remains it is an acess for people with disabilitirs and i have such so its for me,

Sure. I understand. But I'm still not clear about how cycling up to the disabled access or to the general access would differ for you.

And to be very clear, I'm not commenting on any adversity you have braved or anything like that. I'm very simply trying to learn more about how your dyslexia might physically prevent you from wearing a mask on a public bus, to help prevent you from potentially spreading disease to the other folks on the bus. And to be honest, I'm still confused. So far, it really sounds like you're making this binary. One is either disabled or not disabled. I think I may be confused because my position is a bit more nuanced and practical.

 

[Buka]

Meanwhile, I'll continue to think of any non masker wearer near me like Corona Zombies.
And treat them thusly.

 

[jobo]

Sure. I understand. But I'm still not clear about how cycling up to the disabled access or to the general access would differ for you.

And to be very clear, I'm not commenting on any adversity you have braved or anything like that. I'm very simply trying to learn more about how your dyslexia might physically prevent you from wearing a mask on a public bus, to help prevent you from potentially spreading disease to the other folks on the bus. And to be honest, I'm still confused. So far, it really sounds like you're making this binary. One is either disabled or not disabled. I think I may be confused because my position is a bit more nuanced and practical.

well it is binary, the law makes it so, what ever the definition of disabled is in any particular country, means your disabled if you fall within the definition and not if you dont

if you have a disability but dont want to consider yourself disabled thats fine as well, but you cant tell people who meet the definition that they are not disabled enough, to avail themselves of disabled services. i get annoyed id im discriminated against just because people have a faulty definition of what disability is, and they are most probably breaking the law


nb the secure bike parking is adjacent to the disabled entrance. the only reason that door is controlled is for security purposes and not having to put staff on the door to guard the building, so that the discrimination is just based on convenience for them makes it worse. clearly any number of disabled people can cycle, disbarring them based just on that point is clearly wrong morally and legally, as the college eventually accepted

i have much the same issue with my disability assistance dog being refused entry to places, though he is register as such and with using disabled parking/seats etc. there a lot og bigots in the world

i got verbally attacked by some guy for parking in a disabled bay, as it was the reason i was there was id just dropped off two very old ladies to do their shopping, but he took it upon himself to threaten me because he decided i didnt look disabled enough, i could have had both legs amputated for all he could see walking past, ive never seen anyone back of so quickly when i jumped out of the car,

then there the on going issue with the parent and child parking bays which i use quite legally when i have my mother with me

and dont get me started on age discrimination

its like a full time job fighting discrimination

 

[Steve]

well it is binary, the law makes it so, what ever the definition of disabled is in any particular country, means your disabled if you fall within the definition and not if you dont

if you have a disability but dont want to consider yourself disabled thats fine as well, but you cant tell people who meet the definition that they are not disabled enough, to avail themselves of disabled services. i get annoyed id im discriminated against just because people have a faulty definition of what disability is, and they are most probably breaking the law


nb the secure bike parking is adjacent to the disabled entrance. the only reason that door is controlled is for security purposes and not having to put staff on the door to guard the building, so that the discrimination is just based on convenience for them makes it worse. clearly any number of disabled people can cycle, disbarring them based just on that point is clearly wrong morally and legally, as the college eventually accepted

i have much the same issue with my disability assistance dog being refused entry to places, though he is register as such and with using disabled parking/seats etc. there a lot og bigots in the world

i got verbally attacked by some guy for parking in a disabled bay, as it was the reason i was there was id just dropped off two very old ladies to do their shopping, but he took it upon himself to threaten me because he decided i didnt look disabled enough, i could have had both legs amputated for all he could see walking past, ive never seen anyone back of so quickly when i jumped out of the car,

then there the on going issue with the parent and child parking bays which i use quite legally when i have my mother with me

and dont get me started on age discrimination

its like a full time job fighting discrimination

A dog? Now I'm really curious. If at any point this gets too personal, just let me know and I'll drop it. I'm really not trying to pry. I'm just hearing things from you that are confusing to me and so far, you've been pretty willing to share.

Regarding the binary nature, it makes sense if you look at it legally. As I said earlier, I'm thinking about this practically, such as the examples I provided. About 10 or so years ago, the Americans with Disabilities Act in the USA was updated, and the new provisions shift focus from the disability toward providing accommodation and access. So, for example, the issue with the doors is less about whether you are entitled to use the door and more about whether you need to use the door to have equal access to the building. If so, it's there for you to use. Not everyone needs a ramp (and in some cases, a person's disability may make using a ramp actually more difficult or dangerous than using stairs), but the building should have one in case someone needs to use it. Some accommodations are more passive and some are restrictive. So, the doors and the ramps and the widened aisles that can accommodate a wheelchair are often open for anyone to use. Brail on signs, beepers on crossing signals, high visibility striping... all of these are intended to grant equal access, not equivalent access, to spaces.

Designated parking is actually enforceable and can result in a pretty hefty fine if you park there without an acceptable placard, but most

I don't know the ins and outs of mask wearing, but in a case where public health is involved during a pandemic, I would think that anyone who can wear a mask should wear a mask. Which is actually what prompted the thread in the first place. In the USA we have a lot of really crazy folks who are irrationally resistant to wearing masks, and (related to the point in the other thread) the issue has been politicized to the point where not wearing a mask is considered "patriotic" and being required to wear a mask violates a sense of entitlement. But the relevant point is that 1: these folks are often ready for a confrontation. They are not wearing a mask as a principled stand and will go from 0 to 100 in no time flat. And 2: these folks have proven to be volatile to the point of violence. If you confront them about not wearing a mask, either as an employee or a regular citizen, you quite literally risk being attacked.

Just yesterday, a 40-ish year old man was not wearing a mask. When a 77 year old man called him on it, the guy stabbed him, ran away and was eventually killed by the police. I could share countless articles, often including video, of folks just going bonkers about wearing a mask, when all anyone around them wants to do is avoid getting sick. It's pretty sad. But the question is, do you confront these yo-yos? Just try to avoid them and hope they don't cough on you?

 

[dvcochran]

A dog? Now I'm really curious. If at any point this gets too personal, just let me know and I'll drop it. I'm really not trying to pry. I'm just hearing things from you that are confusing to me and so far, you've been pretty willing to share.

Regarding the binary nature, it makes sense if you look at it legally. As I said earlier, I'm thinking about this practically, such as the examples I provided. About 10 or so years ago, the Americans with Disabilities Act in the USA was updated, and the new provisions shift focus from the disability toward providing accommodation and access. So, for example, the issue with the doors is less about whether you are entitled to use the door and more about whether you need to use the door to have equal access to the building. If so, it's there for you to use. Not everyone needs a ramp (and in some cases, a person's disability may make using a ramp actually more difficult or dangerous than using stairs), but the building should have one in case someone needs to use it. Some accommodations are more passive and some are restrictive. So, the doors and the ramps and the widened aisles that can accommodate a wheelchair are often open for anyone to use. Brail on signs, beepers on crossing signals, high visibility striping... all of these are intended to grant equal access, not equivalent access, to spaces.

Designated parking is actually enforceable and can result in a pretty hefty fine if you park there without an acceptable placard, but most

I don't know the ins and outs of mask wearing, but in a case where public health is involved during a pandemic, I would think that anyone who can wear a mask should wear a mask. Which is actually what prompted the thread in the first place. In the USA we have a lot of really crazy folks who are irrationally resistant to wearing masks, and (related to the point in the other thread) the issue has been politicized to the point where not wearing a mask is considered "patriotic" and being required to wear a mask violates a sense of entitlement. But the relevant point is that 1: these folks are often ready for a confrontation. They are not wearing a mask as a principled stand and will go from 0 to 100 in no time flat. And 2: these folks have proven to be volatile to the point of violence. If you confront them about not wearing a mask, either as an employee or a regular citizen, you quite literally risk being attacked.

Just yesterday, a 40-ish year old man was not wearing a mask. When a 77 year old man called him on it, the guy stabbed him, ran away and was eventually killed by the police. I could share countless articles, often including video, of folks just going bonkers about wearing a mask, when all anyone around them wants to do is avoid getting sick. It's pretty sad. But the question is, do you confront these yo-yos? Just try to avoid them and hope they don't cough on you?

Just checked out the link. It is refreshing to read a police shooting related article where the police officer did the right thing and was not made a media martyr. I feel there is more to this story and will follow it for more discovery.

 

[jobo]

A dog? Now I'm really curious. If at any point this gets too personal, just let me know and I'll drop it. I'm really not trying to pry. I'm just hearing things from you that are confusing to me and so far, you've been pretty willing to share.

Regarding the binary nature, it makes sense if you look at it legally. As I said earlier, I'm thinking about this practically, such as the examples I provided. About 10 or so years ago, the Americans with Disabilities Act in the USA was updated, and the new provisions shift focus from the disability toward providing accommodation and access. So, for example, the issue with the doors is less about whether you are entitled to use the door and more about whether you need to use the door to have equal access to the building. If so, it's there for you to use. Not everyone needs a ramp (and in some cases, a person's disability may make using a ramp actually more difficult or dangerous than using stairs), but the building should have one in case someone needs to use it. Some accommodations are more passive and some are restrictive. So, the doors and the ramps and the widened aisles that can accommodate a wheelchair are often open for anyone to use. Brail on signs, beepers on crossing signals, high visibility striping... all of these are intended to grant equal access, not equivalent access, to spaces.

Designated parking is actually enforceable and can result in a pretty hefty fine if you park there without an acceptable placard, but most

I don't know the ins and outs of mask wearing, but in a case where public health is involved during a pandemic, I would think that anyone who can wear a mask should wear a mask. Which is actually what prompted the thread in the first place. In the USA we have a lot of really crazy folks who are irrationally resistant to wearing masks, and (related to the point in the other thread) the issue has been politicized to the point where not wearing a mask is considered "patriotic" and being required to wear a mask violates a sense of entitlement. But the relevant point is that 1: these folks are often ready for a confrontation. They are not wearing a mask as a principled stand and will go from 0 to 100 in no time flat. And 2: these folks have proven to be volatile to the point of violence. If you confront them about not wearing a mask, either as an employee or a regular citizen, you quite literally risk being attacked.

Just yesterday, a 40-ish year old man was not wearing a mask. When a 77 year old man called him on it, the guy stabbed him, ran away and was eventually killed by the police. I could share countless articles, often including video, of folks just going bonkers about wearing a mask, when all anyone around them wants to do is avoid getting sick. It's pretty sad. But the question is, do you confront these yo-yos? Just try to avoid them and hope they don't cough on you?

il come back to the other points later

but of course you dont challenge them, its the surest way of getting yourself in conflict, people generally react badly to be told off,by random strangers if you pick the wrong person your in a good position for being thumped or worse, at very best pick someone who is physically inferior to you

its turned into a very emotive issue with both sides dropping a long way short of rational

if its a legal requirement there is law enforcement to enforce it, if it is a personal choice then thats your answer, insisting that other do what you think they should, is just sticking your nose in some elses business, you have a personal choice to stop in or dont go there or leave if you dont like it

what you cant really do is insist that others have the same neurosis as you

 

[Steve]

Just checked out the link. It is refreshing to read a police shooting related article where the police officer did the right thing and was not made a media martyr. I feel there is more to this story and will follow it for more discovery.

Someone's dead. I wouldn't default to saying the cop did the right thing. I'd default to, at best, neutral, and investigate whether deadly force was necessary.

 

[dvcochran]

Someone's dead. I wouldn't default to saying the cop did the right thing. I'd default to, at best, neutral, and investigate whether deadly force was necessary.

Oh yeah, heaven forbid we give an officer enough credit to think they followed their training, the law, and did their job.

 

[Steve]

Oh yeah, heaven forbid we give an officer enough credit to think they followed their training, the law, and did their job.

Exactly. That's called accountability. Someone is dead. It seems like the very least we can do is determine it was unavoidable and necessary.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Oh yeah, heaven forbid we give an officer enough credit to think they followed their training, the law, and did their job.

This is basically how any job goes. If something goes wrong, for anything from a customer complaint, computer issue, someone fell, etc. they investigate to figure out what happened, and who if anyone is at fault. No one is assumed from the start that they followed their training/did their job correctly, but no one is (ideally) accused of doing something wrong before the investigation is determined. I don't see why cops would be an exception to this.

 

[Oily Dragon]

i had a fallout over masks yesterday, masks are required on the bus, unless your disabled or have breathing problems which is its self a disability.

so as i tried to get on, the driver said, no mask no journey,, i told him i was disabled, but he was not having it and throws me off.

i did warn him that i would report him

so today i rang to complain.

the guy on the phone told me, what their policy was and the driver was right

but thats not what your policy says, i replied, as id just read it and he clearly had not

some long time later we agreed i was right and he would put the guy up for a disciplinary for a flagrant breach of the equalities act and retrain the other drivers to protect the disabled from being abandon at the road side

disabled lives matter as well and i was bored this afternoon
they are sending me a dispensation card, which is nice of them, that will come in handy as they are now taking about making them a requirement in shops

You should be avoiding public transportation entirely, for your own health. Why would you want to ride a public bus that could be crawling with the virus? If your lungs are that bad already, a minor exposure to COVID could be the end of you.

 

[jobo]

You should be avoiding public transportation entirely, for your own health. Why would you want to ride a public bus that could be crawling with the virus? If your lungs are that bad already, a minor exposure to COVID could be the end of you.

ive treated the whole pandemic as hysterical nonsense, now i accept others right to a hypochondriac, its seems others are less charitable than i am

im 61 i haven't spent a single night in hospital since i left shortly after birth, it seems unlikely a virus will get me,, when my immune system has defeated all that came before. i went to the doctors when i was 50, to find they had thrown me off the list, as i hadn't been since i had my vaccinations as a tot, they dug my records out of the basement and said '' really you've not been ill since 1963, no i said and ive only come for a check up now, i like to pop in every half century or so