Is being a cop self defense

[Buka]

I didn't really understand this thread, or think about it much, until the other day. Went to the store about eight at night, preoccupied by some nonsense or another, not really paying attention to anything going on around me. Nothing happened - but I suddenly realized that I wasn't paying attention. I had one of those hmmm moments. Started thinking about it and realized I don't pay much attention to my surroundings anymore. I know, I know, bad self defense, recipe for disaster, yadda yadda.

I realized I've been pretty much this way since I left Law Enforcement. Back then I always carried, always had my badge, always looked out for other people, my eyes always scanning, my radar always tuned up high and sharp. Now, I tend to just mosey along. I really like moseying along, by the way. But I'm more apt to miss indicators, especially involving somebody else. I'm older now, and look it. People don't even look at old people, unless they're targeting them. And you can feel that, the vibe is always there, the setup is there, the pantomime of the bad guy is always there, and I have experienced instincts. I don't worry about that score, but I'm liable to miss other people getting set up, stalked, watched or whatever.

And then I thought, maybe Steve has something there in that thread. Maybe being a cop is part of self defense. I dunno', just saying. Anyway, I think I'll go mosey some more. Good day for moseying.

 

[PhotonGuy]

A bullet to a cops chest is the same as a bullet to a crossing guard.

Crossing guards generally don't wear body armor.

 

[ballen0351]

Crossing guards generally don't wear body armor.

and? How about bullet to the head would that help you understand the point

 

[Steve]

and? How about bullet to the head would that help you understand the point

How often do crossing guards get executed in your neck of the woods? I can't recall one incident in the Seattle area ever. in the land of make believe, where crossing guards are routinely murdered, your point might make a little sense. Otherwise, not so much.

Edit: looking around the interweb a bit, I think self defense for a crossing guard has more to do with death by getting struck by a car. It's a little alarming how often they are killed by careless drivers. Couldn't find any who were shot. If there are any, it appears to be very rare.

 

[ballen0351]

How often do crossing guards get executed in your neck of the woods? I can't recall one incident in the Seattle area ever. in the land of make believe, where crossing guards are routinely murdered, your point might make a little sense. Otherwise, not so much.

Edit: looking around the interweb a bit, I think self defense for a crossing guard has more to do with death by getting struck by a car. It's a little alarming how often they are killed by careless drivers. Couldn't find any who were shot. If there are any, it appears to be very rare.

and? What's any of that have to do with the topic? Dead is dead regardless of your job

 

[ballen0351]

Dead is funny to you Steve?

 

[Steve]

Dead is funny to you Steve?

Real dead or make believe? Make believe dead is funny sometimes. Depends on the context.

Sometimes I think you're being funny on purpose. Sometimes not.

 

[ballen0351]

Real dead or make believe? Make believe dead is funny sometimes. Depends on the context.

Sometimes I think you're being funny on purpose. Sometimes not.

and your trolling on purpose because that's what you do

 

[Steve]

and your trolling on purpose because that's what you do

Says the pot to the kettle. Responding to stupid statements isn't trolling. Making stupid statements might be. It's genuinely hard to tell if you are doing it on purpose or not.

You're trying to equate being a cop to being a crossing guard. That is a stupid assertion. I would wager that crossing guards are at a significantly lower risk for being shot than the general public. Much less cops.

Is your stupid assertion trolling? Well that depends. Are you making stupid statements on purpose or because you are genuinely that unaware?

 

[ballen0351]

Says the pot to the kettle. Responding to stupid statements isn't trolling. Making stupid statements might be. It's genuinely hard to tell if you are doing it on purpose or not.

You're trying to equate being a cop to being a crossing guard

is a stupid assertion. I would wager that crossing guards are at a significantly lower risk for being shot than the general public. Much less cops.

Is your stupid assertion trolling? Well that depends. Are you making stupid statements on purpose or because you are genuinely that unaware?

Awww poor Steve getting so upset he's now calling people stupid. Get a life little fella

 

[Steve]

Awww poor Steve getting so upset he's now calling people stupid. Get a life little fella

Not you. I don't know you. Your post, though. That's some stupidity. As I said, I don't know if it's intentional or not. i go back and forth.

 

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[PhotonGuy]

I think what ballen0351 is saying is that it doesn't matter what your job is, dead is dead. If you're on the receiving end of something that's deadly whether its in the line of work or not, it will kill you. It doesn't matter what a person's occupation is if they get killed they're dead and one occupation doesn't make you any more dead than another occupation because dead is dead. There aren't different levels of being dead there's just dead and thats it.

 

[Tgace]

I think what ballen0351 is saying is that it doesn't matter what your job is, dead is dead. If you're on the receiving end of something that's deadly whether its in the line of work or not, it will kill you. It doesn't matter what a person's occupation is if they get killed they're dead and one occupation doesn't make you any more dead than another occupation because dead is dead. There aren't different levels of being dead there's just dead and thats it.

And defending yourself is defending yourself. Sure a cop may have some tools available that others don't at times. But even then... there are many places where anyone could have a CCW, OC spray, etc on them.

The differences between a LEO defending him/herself and anyone else in a SD situation only varies if the details are known.

Getting into a gunfight while executing a warrant is not the same as being ambushed while sitting in your car.

Most law-abiding people won't be in a forcible entry situation. However, the immediate situation of a cop being ambushed in his car is materially no different from a non-LEO CCW carrier in a carjacking attempt. When the bullets start flying at least.

 

[Tgace]

Just to continue the discussion.

If "self defense" for a cop is different from self-defense for a soccer-mom....isn't SD for the soccer-mom different from that of a 7-11 cashier? Isn't the cashier's different from an office worker in a Bank? From a politician? From a UPS driver? Etc? Etc?

We don't claim that every person needs a different "school of self-defense" do we?

Certainly they all have different requirements but are we asking "Is being a 7/11 cashier self-defense" here too?

 

[Steve]

I think what ballen0351 is saying is that it doesn't matter what your job is, dead is dead. If you're on the receiving end of something that's deadly whether its in the line of work or not, it will kill you. It doesn't matter what a person's occupation is if they get killed they're dead and one occupation doesn't make you any more dead than another occupation because dead is dead. There aren't different levels of being dead there's just dead and thats it.

Absolutely. What he was getting at is clear.

The thing is, there's a point where you are either paranoid or fear mongering. Depends upon which side of the sales desk you're sitting.
If you're selling the idea that crossing guards are at risk for execution, you're way off base. It's the difference between make believe, fiction writing, and an adult discussion about what happens in the real world.

Said another way, this is what is called a red herring. If you are a crossing guard and are interested in self defense, preparing for something that literally never happens can actually distract you from preparing for something that might actually happen.

Just to continue the discussion.

If "self defense" for a cop is different from self-defense for a soccer-mom....isn't SD for the soccer-mom different from that of a 7-11 cashier? Isn't the cashier's different from an office worker in a Bank? From a politician? From a UPS driver? Etc? Etc?

We don't claim that every person needs a different "school of self-defense" do we?

Certainly they all have different requirements but are we asking "Is being a 7/11 cashier self-defense" here too?

School for self defense? Probably not. Certainly, there is a lot of overlap, but there are a few things I believe to be true.

1: That physical self defense strategies and techniques are generally contextual. It is not "One Size Fits All" or even fits most.

2: Self defense is far more than physical skills and techniques.

2: In many contexts, physical self defense skill is not the most important self defense skill. In other words, knowing how to fight or disarm a bad guy or kick a guy in the groin is often not the most important area of study. In some cases, it's entirely unnecessary.

3: When the physical skills are not the most important elements of self defense, the amount of time spent learning them often distorts the perception of how critical they are. This is the red herring effect, and is common in training.

4: For self defense to actually help anyone, it could really benefit from a more scientific approach that targets specific metrics, similar to the program developed for the female students at the universities in Canada. That training would not be much help for a crossing guard, but it had a measurable effect for the intended audience.

So, all that to say, different schools? No. Different programs? Yeah. I think so. Teaching different things. A soccer mom doesn't need to know what to do when the junkie comes in at 1am and wants all the cash out of the safe, or how to mitigate risk when confronting a shoplifter (or even whether to confront the shoplifter).

Soccer mom might need some help with road rage, home invasion or possibly how to de-escalate an encounter on the sideline of a playoff game when the other team's out of control soccer moms go nuts because your kid totally clowned their star player for the game winning goal.

 

[Steve]

Just to continue the discussion.

Certainly they all have different requirements but are we asking "Is being a 7/11 cashier self-defense" here too?

Tgace, I didn't specifically comment on this last question. We don't ask whether being a 7/11 cashier is self defense, because we don't have people on this forum suggesting that what they do equates to anything else. We do have at least one guy who wants to equate what he does with just about everything, which was the genesis of the thread.

Taking this a little further, would a 7/11 cashier be a credible source for self defense instruction? Probably has more practical experience than most....

 

[Tgace]

Tgace, I didn't specifically comment on this last question. We don't ask whether being a 7/11 cashier is self defense, because we don't have people on this forum suggesting that what they do equates to anything else. We do have at least one guy who wants to equate what he does with just about everything, which was the genesis of the thread.

Taking this a little further, would a 7/11 cashier be a credible source for self defense instruction? Probably has more practical experience than most....

The thing "being a cop" has going for it is that it's a cops job to "deal with people" in physical confrontations and work with H2H techniques, weapons, de-escalation techniques, etc. (where a 7/11 employee is more likely to be a victim of crime).

SOME Cops actually attend schools specifically focused on crime prevention and personal security for community policing and citizen awareness events.

All that being said. I can see how SOME cops can have more clout in teaching SD (vs. unarmed fighting techniques) than a martial arts instructor who may have more experience in unarmed fighting but not so much on the other "non-fighting" topics.

Of course none of this means I'm making a blanket statement about the profession in general having any specific clout.

 

[ballen0351]

I think what ballen0351 is saying is that it doesn't matter what your job is, dead is dead. If you're on the receiving end of something that's deadly whether its in the line of work or not, it will kill you. It doesn't matter what a person's occupation is if they get killed they're dead and one occupation doesn't make you any more dead than another occupation because dead is dead. There aren't different levels of being dead there's just dead and thats it.

Steve knows what I ment he's just trolling. That's all he does lately

 

[ballen0351]

Absolutely. What he was getting at is clear.

The thing is, there's a point where you are either paranoid or fear mongering. Depends upon which side of the sales desk you're sitting.
If you're selling the idea that crossing guards are at risk for execution, you're way off base. It's the difference between make believe, fiction writing, and an adult discussion about what happens in the real world.

Said another way, this is what is called a red herring. If you are a crossing guard and are interested in self defense, preparing for something that literally never happens can actually distract you from preparing for something that might actually happen.

School for self defense? Probably not. Certainly, there is a lot of overlap, but there are a few things I believe to be true.

1: That physical self defense strategies and techniques are generally contextual. It is not "One Size Fits All" or even fits most.

2: Self defense is far more than physical skills and techniques.

2: In many contexts, physical self defense skill is not the most important self defense skill. In other words, knowing how to fight or disarm a bad guy or kick a guy in the groin is often not the most important area of study. In some cases, it's entirely unnecessary.

3: When the physical skills are not the most important elements of self defense, the amount of time spent learning them often distorts the perception of how critical they are. This is the red herring effect, and is common in training.

4: For self defense to actually help anyone, it could really benefit from a more scientific approach that targets specific metrics, similar to the program developed for the female students at the universities in Canada. That training would not be much help for a crossing guard, but it had a measurable effect for the intended audience.

So, all that to say, different schools? No. Different programs? Yeah. I think so. Teaching different things. A soccer mom doesn't need to know what to do when the junkie comes in at 1am and wants all the cash out of the safe, or how to mitigate risk when confronting a shoplifter (or even whether to confront the shoplifter).

Soccer mom might need some help with road rage, home invasion or possibly how to de-escalate an encounter on the sideline of a playoff game when the other team's out of control soccer moms go nuts because your kid totally clowned their star player for the game winning goal.

the part where you fail is you seem to think a crossing guard is a crossing guard 24/7. You do understand they get time off and may be they average citizen on the street that's confronted by a group of teens looking for a fight, or they may be home and become a victim of a home invasion. A police officer goes off duty and can be confronted out of uniform without the took belt. We just had an off duty officer here become the victim of an attempted carjacking. The bad guy picked the wrong car and died for his effort when the officer defended himself and shot the suspect. You keep mixing jobs with people. I work as a cop but I'm not only a cop, I have a life outside my job. A crossing guard is a job but they have a life outside of work. To say they only need to worry about getting hit by a car during the 3 hours a day they work leaves them vulnerable during the other 21 hours. But again you know all that your just being you